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Some sketches for my project
Heh, I've had a person elsewhere compare her to some street fighter characters (like Makoto).
Her name is Salali (Sal for short) and she's the flat-out strongest of the four party members. The main character is a guy named Eric who's more of a mage type. I'll post a couple sketches of him soon.
Her name is Salali (Sal for short) and she's the flat-out strongest of the four party members. The main character is a guy named Eric who's more of a mage type. I'll post a couple sketches of him soon.
Alternative to battles
post=131357post=131100Actually this is usually refuted in one of the first paragraphs of any tabletop RPG book. And I always go back to my beloved tabletop RPGs. The aim of most tabletop RPGs is NOT the players vs the GM. Instead the players and the GM collaborate to create something. Of course computer RPGs are mostly single player things, but this actually got me thinking about another design thing from tabletop that would be cool to bring to the computer. The concept of not trying to beat the game. Instead trying to... just... sort of... enjoy it... (And of course the game accomodating this... enjoying)
The basis of almost any game is some level of competition. It is you vs someone else, whether it is a friend you are playing with, or a computer, and your goal is to win.
I don't think anyone was suggesting that it's an issue of player vs. GM, or even vs. game designer. It IS an issue of Player vs. Environment. In order to get anywhere in the game, you have to overcome obstacles and threats in the environment. Losing means not getting anywhere, and that's boring and frustrating if you do nothing but lose, so the goal is to win.
Some sketches for my project
I've been sketching some stuff for the RPG I'm working on, so I guess I'll post the results here. I just have a couple for one character right now. I'll just post links as I don't want to make my posts humongous.
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7192/shi1u.jpg
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/7861/shi2k.jpg
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7192/shi1u.jpg
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/7861/shi2k.jpg
Since we need more art thread: Take a look at some horribly rough sketches!
Alternative to battles
Looking at the recent posts, I realized that even if you did something like replace "battle" with "drive cars fast," ultimately there's still some kind of conflict going on and a system through with you resolve it, be it by hitting things with swords, racing cars, or throwing around playing cards.
I think the baseline "problem" here is that an RPG is typically centered strongly around the idea of having a story. And to have a story, you need some kind of conflict. And when it's time to get down and deal with that conflict the old fashined way, some kind of gameplay system that essentially compares character abilities and player skills in order to determine winners is necessary. A battle, even if it doesn't involve characters actually trying to kill each other, is still a battle, within the context of designing an RPG.
So I suppose the ultimate conclusion here is that, no, you can't have an RPG without a battle system. Now, you can come up with a really unusual battle system that doesn't conform to the idea of flat-out mortal combat, but it's still a battle system as far as winning and losing goes. So there is no alternative to battles. There are only alternative types of battle.
I think the baseline "problem" here is that an RPG is typically centered strongly around the idea of having a story. And to have a story, you need some kind of conflict. And when it's time to get down and deal with that conflict the old fashined way, some kind of gameplay system that essentially compares character abilities and player skills in order to determine winners is necessary. A battle, even if it doesn't involve characters actually trying to kill each other, is still a battle, within the context of designing an RPG.
So I suppose the ultimate conclusion here is that, no, you can't have an RPG without a battle system. Now, you can come up with a really unusual battle system that doesn't conform to the idea of flat-out mortal combat, but it's still a battle system as far as winning and losing goes. So there is no alternative to battles. There are only alternative types of battle.
Alternative to battles
I guess the key here is that you make sure whatever replaces "battles" is fun and intricate enough to where nobody will notice, like the racing example. If you gained experience from races to gain better handling and learn new driving tricks, and used money to upgrade car parts, it would be very rpgish. Though sadly it'd probably still be called a racing game. Which makes me see the inherent problem that the OP puts forth: anything outside of combat and some puzzles seems to get the game slapped with another genre, or at least a genre mix, like action/rpg.
Though that might be alleviated if you set it up so your car driving abilities were useful for more than just winning races. Like, you had to go all heroic and chase a badguy or something.
Now it's sounding like an ideal Speed Racer: The Game.
Though that might be alleviated if you set it up so your car driving abilities were useful for more than just winning races. Like, you had to go all heroic and chase a badguy or something.
Now it's sounding like an ideal Speed Racer: The Game.
Alternative to battles
Well, I figured it goes without saying that if you're getting xp and levels for doing things besides fighting battles, then you have skills related to various non-battle things.
Also, there was Pokemon Ranger where you, uh, encircle pokemon with the power of friendship.
Also, there was Pokemon Ranger where you, uh, encircle pokemon with the power of friendship.
Alternative to battles
I think we can boil this issue down to what exactly in the game rewards the player, particularly with experience points or whatever their equivalent is. In most RPGs, you get experience entirely from battles, so therefore its going to be battle-centric, since the player wants to get as much xp as possible to raise levels (or what have you) and get more powerful. So, they feel the need to fight all the time.
Really, the trick to make a game less combat-centric (even if they're still the choice of engaging in combat) would be to give the player other equally lucrative ways to gain xp, possibly even to the point that you gain more xp from other things than combat, or even gain no xp from combat at all.
For instance, I too hate the "fight and level constantly" paradigm, so I was trying to come up with some kind of alternative that allowed combat, but didn't constantly encourage it. The idea I had was to have something more of an objective system, where you get rewards from completing quests, missions, and discovering things like treasure in dungeons. In the course of, say, exploring a dungeon, one may come across monsters. Some might be squarely in your way and need to be killed, but I'd likely give you a lot of options to try to get around them, either through alternate paths or stealth skills. Really, you have to ask yourself whether or not you're okay with the notion of the enemy still being in that same place later on when you maybe trek back through the same area. If you're okay with that, you can just pass the fight up, and not lose anything for it. Your real goal is to reach the treasure or whatever other important things are in the dungeon, and that's you'd earn all your xp there.
Of course, since combat is less of a necessity in that system, you could have other challenges within a dungeon, such as traps and puzzles, which you could again decide whether or not you want to deal with. Outside of dungeons and other kinds of exploration, you could have complex social situations that require you to use social and diplomacy skills (as well as your own thinking as a player) to settle a conflict or dispute. Even that has the potential to get you into fights, but not necessarily, assuming you maneuver through the situation well. Resolving the situation in at least a somewhat successful manner will earn you xp.
Really, the trick to make a game less combat-centric (even if they're still the choice of engaging in combat) would be to give the player other equally lucrative ways to gain xp, possibly even to the point that you gain more xp from other things than combat, or even gain no xp from combat at all.
For instance, I too hate the "fight and level constantly" paradigm, so I was trying to come up with some kind of alternative that allowed combat, but didn't constantly encourage it. The idea I had was to have something more of an objective system, where you get rewards from completing quests, missions, and discovering things like treasure in dungeons. In the course of, say, exploring a dungeon, one may come across monsters. Some might be squarely in your way and need to be killed, but I'd likely give you a lot of options to try to get around them, either through alternate paths or stealth skills. Really, you have to ask yourself whether or not you're okay with the notion of the enemy still being in that same place later on when you maybe trek back through the same area. If you're okay with that, you can just pass the fight up, and not lose anything for it. Your real goal is to reach the treasure or whatever other important things are in the dungeon, and that's you'd earn all your xp there.
Of course, since combat is less of a necessity in that system, you could have other challenges within a dungeon, such as traps and puzzles, which you could again decide whether or not you want to deal with. Outside of dungeons and other kinds of exploration, you could have complex social situations that require you to use social and diplomacy skills (as well as your own thinking as a player) to settle a conflict or dispute. Even that has the potential to get you into fights, but not necessarily, assuming you maneuver through the situation well. Resolving the situation in at least a somewhat successful manner will earn you xp.
GAMESTORMING
I really need to share this...
General Name: Don't know
General Idea: A tale of a mysterious but seemingly modern school/living complex bordering an equally mysterious forest. Would star four characters, each with a unique fighting "style" based off of their own wildly different mystical powers, who try to unravel the mysteries of the complex, the forest, and the people living in both. All, strangely, based on a dream I had just last night.
Extensive Notes: Brace yourself...
General Name: Don't know
General Idea: A tale of a mysterious but seemingly modern school/living complex bordering an equally mysterious forest. Would star four characters, each with a unique fighting "style" based off of their own wildly different mystical powers, who try to unravel the mysteries of the complex, the forest, and the people living in both. All, strangely, based on a dream I had just last night.
Extensive Notes: Brace yourself...
Last night I had a surprisingly coherent dream, and I'd like to start off by describing it. The idea seemed to be that I was looking for a relative of mine that I had only just found out even existed, or something to that effect. Apparently, they were located in a rather strange place, which seemed to be a school combined with a complete living community. To be honest the "school" part is a bit of an assumption since there were buildings that looked like they belonged in a university that I only ever saw and never entered. The one building I did go in seemed to be something more like a normal house on the edge of this "complex" or whatever, and the people who lived there were two younger girls plus a parental figure of some kind (mother or grandmother, I'm not sure). I actually remember the girls pretty clearly. Both had black hair and tanned skin (like they were middle eastern or Indian or something), and one had short messy hair and seemed kinda tomboyish and the other had longer hair that seemed more "normally" girly.
This dream took weird nature/spiritual tones later on when I wandered out of the house in the evening and into a forest that I guess borders the complex. I seemed to be following a road, and at one point I felt like I had gone far enough, which for some reason was also when two cars started coming down the road towards me. I turned away from them and moved to the side of the road so they could pass... and they didn't come. It was at that point where I somehow managed to somehow lose the road and the forest started getting darker and darker until it was pitch black. It was literally like being in a dark void, though I could see small cracks of light here and there, though they didn't seem to illuminate anything else. I was pretty freaked out, but then a hand grabbed me and led me running back to the earlier house. The hand belonged to the second girl with the long hair.
After that point I got the general gist (I think the girl(s) explained it to me) that there was something weird going on with the forest, and perhaps the complex's relationship with it. The girls also seemed to be in tune with it or something. It wasn't evil, but it wasn't nice either. I also got the feeling that the girls and their parent(s) belonged to some kind of native people who originated from this forest, and also that some of those people were still leading a more tribal lifestyle within the forest. The natives in the complex seemed to be the ones getting a bit more in touch with modernity. A contrast between the school/complex seems obvious, but at the same time there seemed to be some kind of positive symbiotic relationship rather than any aggression. Still, something unusual was happening and there was some kind of grave concern regarding my search for my relative, though I don't know what.
So after waking up I got to thinking about this whole scenario and how one could construct a pretty cool story out of it. I'm rather interested in the concept of RPGs that, rather than being some world-spanning epic, actually stays contained within a more contained locale, and feel like this setting could work out pretty well. I started coming up with a couple of my own additions to the basic concept that could affect and define the gameplay. For instance, I thought maybe that darkness that enclosed "me" (who I suppose would be replaced by the main character) might be something that could "infect" the main character and give him some mysterious powers for unknown reasons. From that point him, the girls, and whoever else start trying to figure out unusual happenstances surrounding the forest and the complex. Dealing with the people running the school, the natives in the forest, students, and various other groups (native or otherwise) and all of their interactions would probably be core to advancing the plot and figuring out if the strange occurrences are just random, or if there's something more directed and sinister going on. (Who am I kidding? Of course something sinister is going on)
As far as gameplay goes, I'm not interested in just making some kind of generic turn-based combat RPG as an excuse to tell a story. I'd try to actually make it interesting somehow, though I'm not sure how yet. Usually though I try to come up with something that adds a strong "tactical" element to combat. Were it a more normal setting I'd come up with tactics based off of real life combat, but in this setting I imagine there's much more magical stuff going on with the combat, perhaps warranting something totally different (but still more original than just typical elemental stuff). And of course there's the consideration that not all of the gameplay will be combat.
One thing I am sure of is that each party member would have a very unique use and application, based off of whatever mystic powers they've been given in the story. The main character would have twisted dark magic, and the long-haired girl would have some kind of "nature-based" magic. Not sure about the tomboy sister. Perhaps she'd just become super humanly strong somehow. I imagine there'd be at least one more party member, but I don't know who. It'd probably be a male though.
This dream took weird nature/spiritual tones later on when I wandered out of the house in the evening and into a forest that I guess borders the complex. I seemed to be following a road, and at one point I felt like I had gone far enough, which for some reason was also when two cars started coming down the road towards me. I turned away from them and moved to the side of the road so they could pass... and they didn't come. It was at that point where I somehow managed to somehow lose the road and the forest started getting darker and darker until it was pitch black. It was literally like being in a dark void, though I could see small cracks of light here and there, though they didn't seem to illuminate anything else. I was pretty freaked out, but then a hand grabbed me and led me running back to the earlier house. The hand belonged to the second girl with the long hair.
After that point I got the general gist (I think the girl(s) explained it to me) that there was something weird going on with the forest, and perhaps the complex's relationship with it. The girls also seemed to be in tune with it or something. It wasn't evil, but it wasn't nice either. I also got the feeling that the girls and their parent(s) belonged to some kind of native people who originated from this forest, and also that some of those people were still leading a more tribal lifestyle within the forest. The natives in the complex seemed to be the ones getting a bit more in touch with modernity. A contrast between the school/complex seems obvious, but at the same time there seemed to be some kind of positive symbiotic relationship rather than any aggression. Still, something unusual was happening and there was some kind of grave concern regarding my search for my relative, though I don't know what.
So after waking up I got to thinking about this whole scenario and how one could construct a pretty cool story out of it. I'm rather interested in the concept of RPGs that, rather than being some world-spanning epic, actually stays contained within a more contained locale, and feel like this setting could work out pretty well. I started coming up with a couple of my own additions to the basic concept that could affect and define the gameplay. For instance, I thought maybe that darkness that enclosed "me" (who I suppose would be replaced by the main character) might be something that could "infect" the main character and give him some mysterious powers for unknown reasons. From that point him, the girls, and whoever else start trying to figure out unusual happenstances surrounding the forest and the complex. Dealing with the people running the school, the natives in the forest, students, and various other groups (native or otherwise) and all of their interactions would probably be core to advancing the plot and figuring out if the strange occurrences are just random, or if there's something more directed and sinister going on. (Who am I kidding? Of course something sinister is going on)
As far as gameplay goes, I'm not interested in just making some kind of generic turn-based combat RPG as an excuse to tell a story. I'd try to actually make it interesting somehow, though I'm not sure how yet. Usually though I try to come up with something that adds a strong "tactical" element to combat. Were it a more normal setting I'd come up with tactics based off of real life combat, but in this setting I imagine there's much more magical stuff going on with the combat, perhaps warranting something totally different (but still more original than just typical elemental stuff). And of course there's the consideration that not all of the gameplay will be combat.
One thing I am sure of is that each party member would have a very unique use and application, based off of whatever mystic powers they've been given in the story. The main character would have twisted dark magic, and the long-haired girl would have some kind of "nature-based" magic. Not sure about the tomboy sister. Perhaps she'd just become super humanly strong somehow. I imagine there'd be at least one more party member, but I don't know who. It'd probably be a male though.
Generic Combat System complaints
post=125796Well, that's cool. That sort of action-and-counteraction is precisely what needs to go on. It's like in advance wars: you make tanks? The enemy makes anti-tank guns. You make bombers to take out the guns? The enemy makes fighters and anti-air. It just goes on and on.
Disclaimer: I'm responding only to the OP here.
Ill Will was pretty much built around this: enemies learn your ins-and-outs (resistances, movesets, etc) through trial and error, and then go with whatever had the most profound effect. So if they, say, find a fire weakness, they will start exploiting it (as will other enemies present in the battle). Now, what you can do with that is set up a fire-drain shield (I'm not weak to that anymore! Thanks for the health!) or have fire-weak characters guard (dividing damage by ten) knowing that the enemy will seek that weakness. Of course, they'll then recognize that you're guarding, or that a fire shield is in place, and respond accordingly, which gives most fights a tug-of-war quality to them.
The real beauty is that you can then start to try to anticipate enemy reactions to what you do, and then mix it up. Really, this is the basis of any combat, be it turn-based strategy, an FPS, or a fighting game.
In regards to jRPGs and western RPGs: Yeah, jRPGs tend to be more linear, though they have varying degrees of character building. Western RPGs... well, they can be misleading. Sure there's typically a lot of non-linear stuff you can do, and you can be guaranteed that the character-building will be decent at least. But ultimately the plot will tend to wind up going in about the same direction no matter what you do.
We can get into a whole debate about narrative in video games, though typically the end conclusion is that you can't ever really TRUELY have a completely 100% free-form video game without completely sacrificing any semblance of a well-thought-out plot. Also, it's a bit off-topic.
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