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ALTERNATIVE TO BATTLES
Posts
calunio
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CloseThe thing is... I'm kinda sick of battles in RPGs. And I don't mean DBS, I mean... battles. Of course some systems are more fun than others, and of course there are ways to spice battles so the play nicer. But battles are still battles, and it annoys me to think that even though battles are not necessary to the constitution of an RPG, it seems hard to make an RPG make sense without them.
It may sound pointless to make an RPG without battles... but an RPG is a story, and not every story should involve fighting. Ok, maybe the story of a knight trying to save the world should have battles, but... why should a hacker trying to unravel political intrigues fight?
What bugs me is not just the battle SYSTEMS, but the battle CONCEPT... the fact that all of the characters' stats involve battles, the fact that challenge progression involves more difficult battles... the fact that if I'm to make a game about Pizza, it's either a Pizza Simulator (non-RPG) or an RPG in which the Pizza guy BATTLES.
So... how could an RPG work without battles?
My initial idea was PUZZLES. Puzzles are a good challenge alternative to battles. The problem with puzzles is that they usually involve the player's wits, not the characters' stats. So having characters' stats would be pointless. You could make more complicated puzzles that demand different character abilities... well, you could. But could you make a whole game around that? I don't know. Not easily, anyway.
My other idea was to make an alternative system that works almost exactly like a battle, but it's not a battle. Something like... instead of killing enemies, all the enemies are animals which you're supposed to tame, and in order to do so, you use different skills, stats, bla bla bla. The "dog taming" is a stupid example, but I think you get the idea. Problem is, it should be hard to make characters and enemies with many different stats and skills for a task like... taming animals. Or every other task other than battling! Aaaaaargggghhhhh!
Help.
It may sound pointless to make an RPG without battles... but an RPG is a story, and not every story should involve fighting. Ok, maybe the story of a knight trying to save the world should have battles, but... why should a hacker trying to unravel political intrigues fight?
What bugs me is not just the battle SYSTEMS, but the battle CONCEPT... the fact that all of the characters' stats involve battles, the fact that challenge progression involves more difficult battles... the fact that if I'm to make a game about Pizza, it's either a Pizza Simulator (non-RPG) or an RPG in which the Pizza guy BATTLES.
So... how could an RPG work without battles?
My initial idea was PUZZLES. Puzzles are a good challenge alternative to battles. The problem with puzzles is that they usually involve the player's wits, not the characters' stats. So having characters' stats would be pointless. You could make more complicated puzzles that demand different character abilities... well, you could. But could you make a whole game around that? I don't know. Not easily, anyway.
My other idea was to make an alternative system that works almost exactly like a battle, but it's not a battle. Something like... instead of killing enemies, all the enemies are animals which you're supposed to tame, and in order to do so, you use different skills, stats, bla bla bla. The "dog taming" is a stupid example, but I think you get the idea. Problem is, it should be hard to make characters and enemies with many different stats and skills for a task like... taming animals. Or every other task other than battling! Aaaaaargggghhhhh!
Help.
DFalcon
2141
I worked briefly on an RPG idea where the challenge was totally decoupled from everything else about the game. Like, you'd be walking around town talking to people, trying to put pieces of a mystery together. Anytime you needed to convince someone to do something or give you a bit of information, voila: Japanese vocabulary quiz! Or whatever the player wanted to put there instead.
Anyway, I'm not sure where exactly you were going with your post. A hacker trying to unravel political intrigues may not fight much in the real world, but he can probably face off against ICE in some glowy Tron thing. There are probably RPGs where people save the world through their skill at winning a card game.
Anyway, I'm not sure where exactly you were going with your post. A hacker trying to unravel political intrigues may not fight much in the real world, but he can probably face off against ICE in some glowy Tron thing. There are probably RPGs where people save the world through their skill at winning a card game.
post=129722
So... how could an RPG work without battles?
My initial idea was PUZZLES. Puzzles are a good challenge alternative to battles. The problem with puzzles is that they usually involve the player's wits, not the characters' stats. So having characters' stats would be pointless. You could make more complicated puzzles that demand different character abilities... well, you could. But could you make a whole game around that? I don't know. Not easily, anyway.
Without the combat though, I'd say that a game would fit under a different genre better myself. Such as calling something like the game above a puzzle game with emphasis on story, or maybe even with some rpg elements if you involve stats somehow, etc, but it would still be mainly a puzzle game, not an RPG. Some form of combat involving stats is sort of a staple of the RPG genre, so without it you're not aiming for making an RPG so much as a different genre/mishmash of genres of game. If you could come up with a system that involves using skills and stats in a similar fashion without it being traditional combat, it could still be called an RPG, but otherwise...
Edit: So basically, if you're sick of the combat elements of RPGs and strip them out, then you'll more than likely end up with a visual novel, adventure game, puzzle game, management simulation game, etc. instead of an RPG.
I'm telling you right now from a personal perspective I hate puzzles to death. Like, to death. I'll play and enjoy a game WITH puzzles, but an RPG comprised of puzzles? Ugh.
How about you have arguments instead !? Seems like a good idea, and pretty simple system to put in, though it'd probably only work for a joke game of sorts.
post=129773
How about you have arguments instead !? Seems like a good idea, and pretty simple system to put in, though it'd probably only work for a joke game of sorts.
Did you ever play the secret of monkey island?
Nightblade
2723
post=129773
How about you have arguments instead !? Seems like a good idea, and pretty simple system to put in, though it'd probably only work for a joke game of sorts.
Silviera
2891
post=129773
How about you have arguments instead !? Seems like a good idea, and pretty simple system to put in, though it'd probably only work for a joke game of sorts.
NB: Way to post End - Part 1? Oh well. People who are going to play it will have known to skip over it! (Screw Ernest and his "now, now, now" animation.)
calunio: You are looking for the puzzle/adventure genres, like GOG said. RPGs have battles. Go play Myst or Phoenix Wright or King's Quest or something.
calunio: You are looking for the puzzle/adventure genres, like GOG said. RPGs have battles. Go play Myst or Phoenix Wright or King's Quest or something.
I don't think he's looking for the adventure genre, Craze.
RPGs have always been based crudely on pen&paper games (D&D), where exploring dungeons and slaying dragons is more than just implied by the title. Combat in that regard has always been a huge part of RPGs, from day one; however, more importantly than combat was the experience/leveling aspect of RPGs. The progression and feeling that you as the player are getting stronger and able to travel deeper into the depths of this game is very important. So like you said Calunio, the whole lotsa-puzzles thing probably would not be appropriate for an RPG.
I'm not about to say combat is 100% necessary. There are non-RPGs with combat, so clearly combat does not set RPGs apart from other genres. The leveling/growth aspect is what makes it an RPG more than anything, as well as the story and role-playing element.
If you can find a decent alternative to combat, I'd encourage you pursue making it. What that would be though, I am clueless to (so maybe this whole post was pointless, but oh welllll).
RPGs have always been based crudely on pen&paper games (D&D), where exploring dungeons and slaying dragons is more than just implied by the title. Combat in that regard has always been a huge part of RPGs, from day one; however, more importantly than combat was the experience/leveling aspect of RPGs. The progression and feeling that you as the player are getting stronger and able to travel deeper into the depths of this game is very important. So like you said Calunio, the whole lotsa-puzzles thing probably would not be appropriate for an RPG.
I'm not about to say combat is 100% necessary. There are non-RPGs with combat, so clearly combat does not set RPGs apart from other genres. The leveling/growth aspect is what makes it an RPG more than anything, as well as the story and role-playing element.
If you can find a decent alternative to combat, I'd encourage you pursue making it. What that would be though, I am clueless to (so maybe this whole post was pointless, but oh welllll).
AABattery
732
Talking about alternatives to battles, I was thinking about making an RPG where you have to play an instrument to sheet music as a battle. You see the fight going with the sheet music above it. If you get a note wrong, your character slips or gets hurt.
I've wanted to do that, but I still don't know much of RPG Maker to start working on it :P
I've wanted to do that, but I still don't know much of RPG Maker to start working on it :P
post=129843
Talking about alternatives to battles, I was thinking about making an RPG where you have to play an instrument to sheet music as a battle. You see the fight going with the sheet music above it. If you get a note wrong, your character slips or gets hurt.
I've wanted to do that, but I still don't know much of RPG Maker to start working on it :P
What, like Parappa the Rapper?
What about the Deus Ex approach? Big sprawling maps with multiple routes, and you use mainly non-combat skills like lockpicking and electronics to find the best route.
So to use your dog-taming example, you could design the maps in your game so that there are often guard dogs in the way, and if you had the dog-taming skills you could use that and walk right in the front door, but if you used all your EXP on climbing you could climb a tree and jump in the window.
Of course, you have to be reeeeally smart with your map design to make that work. Could be pretty damn cool though!
So to use your dog-taming example, you could design the maps in your game so that there are often guard dogs in the way, and if you had the dog-taming skills you could use that and walk right in the front door, but if you used all your EXP on climbing you could climb a tree and jump in the window.
Of course, you have to be reeeeally smart with your map design to make that work. Could be pretty damn cool though!
Role playing game based on environment and character interaction. It can have stats related to these things. It can be a compelling experience. Most of all, the story can be free of the bizarre, limiting notion of centering your entire narrative around the fact that your characters have to be fighting battles every single day, multiple times. RPG stories are written around this core conceit and it stifles creative potential. Battles are trite, I too am extremely bored of them. Please, enough with the frackin battles.
While I disagree with Ciel on being 'tired of battles' (I guess I haven't played enough games to be tired of them), he brings up interesting ideas. May not be for everyone, though.
