NECROMUS'S PROFILE

In my opinion parallax mapping is only worth it if you're good with that kind of art in general. Changing different types of ground tiles to seemlesly flow into each other, special water effects, fancy stuff basicly.
Simply rearranging things to get rid of the "locked to the grid" look can be done with normal mapping too.

Ok 2nd try, the shape of some houses feels weird to me but i don't know.
I know i could change the elevation here and there but i decided not to do that for that map, i definitely keep that in mind tho.

Hmm, seems your only real focus in a game is "challenge" then.
Well, then we aren't really talking about grinding, or rather gaining power, but simply about playing the game, enjoying the gameplay beeing worth less than biting the dust a few times on some boss.

I played everything you mentioned above and i don't disagree with how you see the things you did in those games, they only get easier.
I however don't see that as a problem at all. Gaining power is fun, it is what most games are actually about. The only challenge in any game is getting better than what you're up against. If you decide to to that with a low ammount of power (low lvl runs, or almost everytime you play a game for the first time), instead of getting as strong as you can, then that's your decision.

You see gaining power as a problem, i see that as what the game is actually about.
We are talking about normal RPG's here, not about MMO's where you need to try to stretch out content as far/long as possible. Real challenges are something for optional content, not for the storyline imo. Doesn't mean it needs to be an aatack spamfest, but doubt anyone would see, for example a SMT game, as too easy, simply because the main gameplay actually is gaining power in an almost limitless way.

I think this thread is originally about games where you NEED to grind to progress, which isn't the case in any older FF games tho, you really don't.
I would definitely see that as a problem tho, albeit i personally wouldn't mind most likely, but i'm sure a ton of people would hate it and it's not exactly thrilling gameplay wise either.

But when gaining power is the major part of the gameplay, i wouldn't see it as a problem when boss battls turn out to be rather easy in return.

But let's be honest, i bet a lot of people will be quite the powerhouse when replaying older games, but when you first played them? Were they really that easy?
Even FF7, which is really easy if you look back now, the first time playing didn't leave an "man, this is way too easy" impression on me at all.
You always have optinal bosses for a challenge too, up to the point where you know how to beat them ofc, then they are easy too.

But there is definitely a difference between a player playing FF7 for the first time, leaving Midgar and getting crushed by the Midgar Zolom - like it is supposed to be- and someone who grinded up all the lvl 3 limits to turn the snake into dust.

I think our oppinions most likely vastly differ here, but i can't recall any game where i would say that were too easy the first time i played them.
Especially not something like SMT Nocturne (or Lucifers call for the version i own), too easy would never be something i would describe that with.
Even new FF games, as in X and onwards, have some kind of challenges the first time, altho they really do get easier overall, thats for sure.

author=LockeZ

author=Necromus
Ofc you can totally shift the game balance if you encourage grinding too much, but giving the players a fun and rewarding way to gain power is definitely not wrong.

Well, no, certainly on its own. The problem is when this allows them to gain more power than the battles are designed to accomodate while still being challenging.

But I don't think it's possible to make it actually fun to gain optional power, and simultaneously make it impossible to become overpowered. What you're talking about is only granting the player a negligible amount of power, which... makes it not fun any more. You're not really getting any kind of reward and so the skinner box effect vanishes. Why would I spend ten hours earning upgrades if they're not going to let me do anything I couldn't do before?

So if you don't like the idea of discouraging character development, and you don't like the idea of becoming overpowered, there's only one solution left. And that's to balance the tasks so that gaining the power is expected. In other words, if there's a real power difference between someone who grinded and someone who didn't, then it's just a matter of which of those two people you want to design the main quest for. And if you made the sidequesting and levelling really legitimately fun, that's an easy question to answer: you should expect the player to have done that stuff. So that this hunt for power, which is enjoyable enough that everyone's gonna want to do it anyway, now has to be completed before the player can do the main quests at a reasonable difficulty.

I think you're thinking a bit too much in extremes, just because you can grind and can learn that extra spell or 2 (just an example, there so many different char development systems after all), doesn't mean you can do that indefinitely.
You could artifically limit progress like FFXIII did, you could create diminishing returns where experience from monsters (and/or skillpoints or what every you might gain from battles) declines the more you outlevel them - and the content you're supposed to be in.

Advertising grind shouldn't necesarily mean that you can absolutely overlevel (if the character level is actually the main thing to consider when creating boss battles) the area you're in/supposed to go next.

But the more possibilities you actually have, the better imo.
Like leveling your skills in grandia, getting a few more SP for the next skill in FF6 or FF9, those are examples of making progress without trvializing things.

You're definitely not wrong tho, hitting a balance is hard, like with everything.
But saying that there can't be a fun way to gain power is just not something i think can be applied everywhere.

Grinding doesn't have to mean lvling only. I would rather focus on a more complex char development system, that isn't just based on lvls alone. Gathering materials to craft certain equipment, battles giving you additional points to learn skills with or boost your current once, things like that.
I personally like grinding, but it should always be rewarding and fun to do.
The more things you can actually achieve through fighting, the better.