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THE DIRECTION OF RPG MAKER COMMUNITY
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Instinct
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Instinct
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CloseIf you’ve recently discovered the joys of RPG Maker, say within the last 5 to 6 years, then you will most likely not know who I am. As such, my name is of no consequence. However, if you have been around since 2000 or so… allow me to re-introduce myself. My name is Bloodrose… it’s nice to see you again.
Every now and then, a seasoned member of the community posts a topic such as this… I never have. I feel it is my turn. I have been an active member since 2000 through about 2009 or so. I began developing games, then moved on to operating a website called “Liquid Motion RPG” which was dedicated solely to reviewing people’s projects, and providing insight on how to improve them. The website itself received a moderate amount of visitors, but it was a one-man shop for the most part and I couldn’t keep up with the reviews. Slowly I gravitated towards 3D animation rendering for a hobby. One of my staff members, LittleVagrant if you remember him, has moved on to becoming a professional game designer. Proud to say he actually worked on the graphics to a game called “Darksiders 2” that is about to come out. And nowadays I simply code code code at work… that’s all I do 10 hours a day. But I haven’t lost the love for creativity, and RM itself. I always told myself, I would one day release one more game. The people who still corresponded with me in the community have urged me for years to do so.
Around 2009, I disappeared for personal reasons. Although I was still lurking in the community, and working with various minor projects as a hobby.
2012… I was eagerly awaiting RMVXAce, and finally bought it. I re-entered the community, and this website is the first one I found. I recognized some names, Legion (MaxMcgee), Mateui, Tau, Sbester… even Kentona. Now I remember Kentona when he first came into the scene as a noob. I remember the first traces of ads he posted as he tested the waters… what kind of criticisms he would receive. He’s had his share of bad ones, along with some noteworthy ones. Nobody knew him, and when he released Hero’s Realm I reviewed its first incarnation, put it up front page, and was pleasantly surprised as it introduced aspects of RM that has been lost for a number or years… simplicity of design and sheer playability. At that time, however, most of the RM “legends” that I respected have slowly begun disappearing, and the game-making community turned into a race of custom systems.
Enter RMVX era. These newer engines introduced systems that were not necessarily invented, but popularized (in RM) by the RM creators of circa 2000 and made them standard fare. That’s a good thing.
Nowadays, all of the techniques that took ingenuity to implement in RPG Maker 2000 can be done with simple settings in RMVXAce.
When Gaming World was young all the newbies came in, learned the program, and then started being overly critical of all the ones that came after them. People looked for things wrong in screenshots when none existed. That bird’s left wing doesn’t match the color of the rest of its body. The single tile looks a little too blue. Things that when you actually played the game you wouldn’t even notice depending on the presentation. This was a key factor that people who created games that will go down in RM history understood. A Blurred Line by Lysander had so many things wrong with it graphically, but you will be branded as a witch and burned at the stake should you dare to say this was not a landmark game. If you don’t know this game, or you cannot understand what makes it so good because you are comparing it to today’s graphics… then I daresay you have yet to graduate from RM school.
Such was the way for a number of years until the community finally dwindled as new blood were pushed out due to extensive elitism. Elitism that was successfully disguised as “constructive criticism”. In time people started to forget…
Enter RMN. The cycle starts again.
Let me put this into perspective. I have not seen, to date, any RM game made with RMXP or later that I would consider delivered anything innovative the way that RM2k broke boundaries. The games made in RM2k can still be found front page in international websites. Why? Because they did things that the engine was never meant to do. I have seen people provide advise on how things should be done in other people’s games left and right as if their word was gospel. If you know what makes a great game, then I challenge you to create something that will go down in RM history. Create the next Ydunn Ymiraldor. Create the next A Blurred Line. Create the next Dragon Destiny, Kinetic Cipher, Chimera Report, or Romancing Walker. It is not the quality of these games that make them stand out… it is their quality at the time they were made. Let’s see you push RMVXAce the way these greats pushed RM2k.
Every now and then, a seasoned member of the community posts a topic such as this… I never have. I feel it is my turn. I have been an active member since 2000 through about 2009 or so. I began developing games, then moved on to operating a website called “Liquid Motion RPG” which was dedicated solely to reviewing people’s projects, and providing insight on how to improve them. The website itself received a moderate amount of visitors, but it was a one-man shop for the most part and I couldn’t keep up with the reviews. Slowly I gravitated towards 3D animation rendering for a hobby. One of my staff members, LittleVagrant if you remember him, has moved on to becoming a professional game designer. Proud to say he actually worked on the graphics to a game called “Darksiders 2” that is about to come out. And nowadays I simply code code code at work… that’s all I do 10 hours a day. But I haven’t lost the love for creativity, and RM itself. I always told myself, I would one day release one more game. The people who still corresponded with me in the community have urged me for years to do so.
Around 2009, I disappeared for personal reasons. Although I was still lurking in the community, and working with various minor projects as a hobby.
2012… I was eagerly awaiting RMVXAce, and finally bought it. I re-entered the community, and this website is the first one I found. I recognized some names, Legion (MaxMcgee), Mateui, Tau, Sbester… even Kentona. Now I remember Kentona when he first came into the scene as a noob. I remember the first traces of ads he posted as he tested the waters… what kind of criticisms he would receive. He’s had his share of bad ones, along with some noteworthy ones. Nobody knew him, and when he released Hero’s Realm I reviewed its first incarnation, put it up front page, and was pleasantly surprised as it introduced aspects of RM that has been lost for a number or years… simplicity of design and sheer playability. At that time, however, most of the RM “legends” that I respected have slowly begun disappearing, and the game-making community turned into a race of custom systems.
Enter RMVX era. These newer engines introduced systems that were not necessarily invented, but popularized (in RM) by the RM creators of circa 2000 and made them standard fare. That’s a good thing.
Nowadays, all of the techniques that took ingenuity to implement in RPG Maker 2000 can be done with simple settings in RMVXAce.
When Gaming World was young all the newbies came in, learned the program, and then started being overly critical of all the ones that came after them. People looked for things wrong in screenshots when none existed. That bird’s left wing doesn’t match the color of the rest of its body. The single tile looks a little too blue. Things that when you actually played the game you wouldn’t even notice depending on the presentation. This was a key factor that people who created games that will go down in RM history understood. A Blurred Line by Lysander had so many things wrong with it graphically, but you will be branded as a witch and burned at the stake should you dare to say this was not a landmark game. If you don’t know this game, or you cannot understand what makes it so good because you are comparing it to today’s graphics… then I daresay you have yet to graduate from RM school.
Such was the way for a number of years until the community finally dwindled as new blood were pushed out due to extensive elitism. Elitism that was successfully disguised as “constructive criticism”. In time people started to forget…
Enter RMN. The cycle starts again.
Let me put this into perspective. I have not seen, to date, any RM game made with RMXP or later that I would consider delivered anything innovative the way that RM2k broke boundaries. The games made in RM2k can still be found front page in international websites. Why? Because they did things that the engine was never meant to do. I have seen people provide advise on how things should be done in other people’s games left and right as if their word was gospel. If you know what makes a great game, then I challenge you to create something that will go down in RM history. Create the next Ydunn Ymiraldor. Create the next A Blurred Line. Create the next Dragon Destiny, Kinetic Cipher, Chimera Report, or Romancing Walker. It is not the quality of these games that make them stand out… it is their quality at the time they were made. Let’s see you push RMVXAce the way these greats pushed RM2k.
Necromus
0
I don't know who you are, but i'm in this for just aslong as you are, just i never witnessed the first generation RM2K games in the english speaking communities, just in the german ones.
However i totally agree with you on the trend the communities have taken, that wasn't different in germany.
Criticism sparked everywhere, to absurd dimensions, something absolutely not justified, neither now nor back then.
Games that were the absolute top end of meassuring how good a game is, suddenly were complete crap a year later.
Things that pushed the boundaries became the standard, and everything below that was suddenly aweful.
That it didn't really get easier to create lightning effects, custom battle and menu systems didn't matter anymore, you either had it, or you sucked.
The same thing happens now, RTP games are mostly instantly framed for beeing not unique enough, custom material is expected, even if the work going into those things didn't dwindle one bit.
It seems that when people evolve, when communities eveolve, they forget where they came from, that they also started out as someone not knowing anything, yet they don't (mostly) treat them as new guys, simply as beeing bad.
It's not always like that and also not everywhere, but the hostile feeling you get sometimes, is really not something you want as a starter.
However, breaking the boundaries with newer makers is hard, atleast on a scale like what was done with RM2K/3, simply because scripting already breaks almost all boundaries, and there are a ton of scripts around for basicly everything.
I don't think there really will be something groundbreaking, rather than something that is just a really awesome overall package. Games that are just good, with nice features. Not games that really introduce something new, since that is hardly possible anymore.
However i totally agree with you on the trend the communities have taken, that wasn't different in germany.
Criticism sparked everywhere, to absurd dimensions, something absolutely not justified, neither now nor back then.
Games that were the absolute top end of meassuring how good a game is, suddenly were complete crap a year later.
Things that pushed the boundaries became the standard, and everything below that was suddenly aweful.
That it didn't really get easier to create lightning effects, custom battle and menu systems didn't matter anymore, you either had it, or you sucked.
The same thing happens now, RTP games are mostly instantly framed for beeing not unique enough, custom material is expected, even if the work going into those things didn't dwindle one bit.
It seems that when people evolve, when communities eveolve, they forget where they came from, that they also started out as someone not knowing anything, yet they don't (mostly) treat them as new guys, simply as beeing bad.
It's not always like that and also not everywhere, but the hostile feeling you get sometimes, is really not something you want as a starter.
However, breaking the boundaries with newer makers is hard, atleast on a scale like what was done with RM2K/3, simply because scripting already breaks almost all boundaries, and there are a ton of scripts around for basicly everything.
I don't think there really will be something groundbreaking, rather than something that is just a really awesome overall package. Games that are just good, with nice features. Not games that really introduce something new, since that is hardly possible anymore.
The problem is that the later RMs were made in mind of those who wanted to break limits, so basically they have hardly any. Hard to break something that already broke itself.
Nice to see another oldbie around - yes, I remember you, though you might not remember me. I tended to lurk instead of being active but I jumped on the PC RMship around the '98 mark.
One thing that tears me about the newer makers is that so much is rated on appearance/graphics. RTP, even used well, will not garner as much attention as something that's parallaxed. See, back in ye olde days, parallaxing was new and fresh - an amazingly original feat. It's what made Sunset over Imdahl such a classic and now it's just the norm, not as special. Wish people would take a step back and, while keeping up competent mapping, make things simple again. I guess progress is going forward, not backwards, though...
Nice to see another oldbie around - yes, I remember you, though you might not remember me. I tended to lurk instead of being active but I jumped on the PC RMship around the '98 mark.
One thing that tears me about the newer makers is that so much is rated on appearance/graphics. RTP, even used well, will not garner as much attention as something that's parallaxed. See, back in ye olde days, parallaxing was new and fresh - an amazingly original feat. It's what made Sunset over Imdahl such a classic and now it's just the norm, not as special. Wish people would take a step back and, while keeping up competent mapping, make things simple again. I guess progress is going forward, not backwards, though...
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Modern RPG Makers let you code in Ruby when you need to. You can't "push" a programming language the way you can "push" a broken, incomplete system like RM2K.
The only limits now are your imagination and your dedication.
I have a hard time believing that anyone could see this as a problem.
You tell people they haven't made a single thing as worthwhile as the games of your generation, and then accuse them of elitism in the same breath, that's a fucking laugh! The real issue you have is jealousy. You see people making better games with less effort than you spent to make the same things, and you are bitter. You suffered, so you think it's only fair if everyone else suffers too. Tell me I'm wrong? And I've been making games since RPG Maker 95, lest you think I'm simply defending myself. I came from the same place as you, but I seized new opportunities as they came, instead of being disgusted by their existance.
Not that your feelings are a new idea to me. There are MUD coders who feel the same way about RM2K that you do about RMVX, and there are Fortran game coders who feel that way about MUDs, and there are tabletop GMs who feel that way about Fortran games (or, well, there were; they might all be dead by now). It's a never-ending cycle, and I'll never understand it.
So if your plan is to show up here, accuse a bunch of nice helpful people, who are just trying to make fun games, of being elitist fuckwads, and start a bunch of pointless confrontational drama, you can leave for another ten years, and we won't miss you. You can insult me, but don't insult my people. Good riddance.
The only limits now are your imagination and your dedication.
I have a hard time believing that anyone could see this as a problem.
You tell people they haven't made a single thing as worthwhile as the games of your generation, and then accuse them of elitism in the same breath, that's a fucking laugh! The real issue you have is jealousy. You see people making better games with less effort than you spent to make the same things, and you are bitter. You suffered, so you think it's only fair if everyone else suffers too. Tell me I'm wrong? And I've been making games since RPG Maker 95, lest you think I'm simply defending myself. I came from the same place as you, but I seized new opportunities as they came, instead of being disgusted by their existance.
Not that your feelings are a new idea to me. There are MUD coders who feel the same way about RM2K that you do about RMVX, and there are Fortran game coders who feel that way about MUDs, and there are tabletop GMs who feel that way about Fortran games (or, well, there were; they might all be dead by now). It's a never-ending cycle, and I'll never understand it.
So if your plan is to show up here, accuse a bunch of nice helpful people, who are just trying to make fun games, of being elitist fuckwads, and start a bunch of pointless confrontational drama, you can leave for another ten years, and we won't miss you. You can insult me, but don't insult my people. Good riddance.
if you honestly think he's jealous, then it's kind of hard to take the rest of the post seriously. and yeah, you are wrong.
insulting your people, lol. man, what are you even talking about. guy's just trying to express himself.
insulting your people, lol. man, what are you even talking about. guy's just trying to express himself.
Instinct
0
LockeZ, I'm not "accusing", I'm "stating". And not everyone, just some people. And I dare say I single you out specifically out of many.
I should also state that your response was predictable from a mile away. Your response has zero difference from all the "defenses" that have come before you. "Elitist in the same breath"... I make no defense of it for I admit. Have a taste.
I opened this up having considered all the ramifications of my actions and deciding it is of no consequence, and having anticipated the fire it will bring. But it will also bring certain things to light.
I had a feeling that those burned the most, or are most guilty, will come out swinging... welcome to the fly trap. I single you out. Stop your crap because you have no idea what you're talking about. Arrogant? Yes. True? Absolutely. Sit down.
Jealousy? Zero. I have seen nothing that would stir the emotion in the last 5 years. You can't "push" a programming language? You don't push a language, it is a tool.
I don't accuse a whole bunch of people.... merely a few. I may very well be one of them... but I make a conscious effort to keep it in check until I need to call people out. But the elitism should stop if the community is to thrive. You are the most vocal of the bunch from what I've seen. Lo' and behold... you are the first to retaliate... like a fly to the scent.
I should also state that your response was predictable from a mile away. Your response has zero difference from all the "defenses" that have come before you. "Elitist in the same breath"... I make no defense of it for I admit. Have a taste.
I opened this up having considered all the ramifications of my actions and deciding it is of no consequence, and having anticipated the fire it will bring. But it will also bring certain things to light.
I had a feeling that those burned the most, or are most guilty, will come out swinging... welcome to the fly trap. I single you out. Stop your crap because you have no idea what you're talking about. Arrogant? Yes. True? Absolutely. Sit down.
Jealousy? Zero. I have seen nothing that would stir the emotion in the last 5 years. You can't "push" a programming language? You don't push a language, it is a tool.
I don't accuse a whole bunch of people.... merely a few. I may very well be one of them... but I make a conscious effort to keep it in check until I need to call people out. But the elitism should stop if the community is to thrive. You are the most vocal of the bunch from what I've seen. Lo' and behold... you are the first to retaliate... like a fly to the scent.
that's a lot of assumptions and bad attitude, lockez. Why is he jealous? Where is this coming from? Why is he a DarkLord? Can a person not just have an opinion without being confronted by a jrpg hero? It's really immaterial whether or not modern rpgmaker systems can be used in spectacular, new, innovative ways. What he is saying is that these systems are not being used in this manner.
An important distinction! Personally, I'm inclined to agree. From my point of view, I've played some games made with the later systems that I've enjoyed, but none that have blown my mind like some made in 2k/2k3. And I started playing all these games at around the same time, so I'm not tainted by nostalgia's rosy grasp. (if anyone has any killer recommendations though I am open!! Perhaps a review can be arranged...ga ha ha)
Let me put this into perspective. I have not seen, to date, any RM game made with RMXP or later that I would consider delivered anything innovative the way that RM2k broke boundaries.
An important distinction! Personally, I'm inclined to agree. From my point of view, I've played some games made with the later systems that I've enjoyed, but none that have blown my mind like some made in 2k/2k3. And I started playing all these games at around the same time, so I'm not tainted by nostalgia's rosy grasp. (if anyone has any killer recommendations though I am open!! Perhaps a review can be arranged...ga ha ha)
Things were better back in my day too. Back then, flip-phones with 256 colour VGA screens were considered cool, and Snake II was the real deal. Nowadays it's all about fancy quad-core smartphones, with their HD displays and Gears of War clones. Pfft. Elitists.
EDIT: Yeah, I agree with Liberty in that the games you mentioned were considered legendary because they redefined what could be done with RPG Maker. Nowadays, the 'breaking of limits' can be emulated by scripts, and as a result of several developers using the same scripts, you see many games that while breaking the same sort of limits, are similiar to each other in many ways. That is why no one of them appears to stand out.
Just my two dolla.
EDIT EDIT:
EDIT: Yeah, I agree with Liberty in that the games you mentioned were considered legendary because they redefined what could be done with RPG Maker. Nowadays, the 'breaking of limits' can be emulated by scripts, and as a result of several developers using the same scripts, you see many games that while breaking the same sort of limits, are similiar to each other in many ways. That is why no one of them appears to stand out.
Just my two dolla.
EDIT EDIT:
Create the next Ydunn Ymiraldor. Create the next A Blurred Line. Create the next Dragon Destiny, Kinetic Cipher, Chimera Report, or Romancing Walker.IIRC, Ydunn Ymiraldor, Chimera Report and even ABL, technically, were never completed. Just thought I should point that out..
Killer Wolf
1235
I think part of the reason older games, circa the first RM2k wave, seemed to make a bigger impact is because they were the works of individuals who managed to bend the rules and get the maker to do things that it wasn't originally intended to.
The reason I like Rm2k3 is that it comes with some hard limitations. Circumventing them is part of the fun in creating my projects, so much so that a lot of times once I bend the events enough to get them to do what I want, I lose interest in the game.
To paraphrase something from The Diamond Age, there are honers and forgers. Honers work with older tech, hacking it for all its worth and making it do things it was never intended to. Forgers go off and create new tech.
To continue in psuedo-hacker parlance, a lot of the VX and XP projects that make use of well known/circulated scripts could be seen as the work of "script-kiddies."
In reality, it isn't much different from using the Maker to begin with, since they are just tools that others have written to assist in the generation of games, but to me, at least, having to give credit for a whole half of my game's systems to some script-writer (who happens to be the wellspring everyone else is filling their troughs from) makes the newer makers and their advanced features lose a bit of their luster.
Just my opinion.
That said, there are still projects that push the boundaries of what the newer makers can do. Progress still happens, it just seems to have slowed to glacial time. It was a long way from Kittyhawk to the first 747. The jump from there to modern aircraft is no less of an accomplishment, it just isn't as broad of a stroke.
Progress, like the Devil, is in the details.
The reason I like Rm2k3 is that it comes with some hard limitations. Circumventing them is part of the fun in creating my projects, so much so that a lot of times once I bend the events enough to get them to do what I want, I lose interest in the game.
To paraphrase something from The Diamond Age, there are honers and forgers. Honers work with older tech, hacking it for all its worth and making it do things it was never intended to. Forgers go off and create new tech.
To continue in psuedo-hacker parlance, a lot of the VX and XP projects that make use of well known/circulated scripts could be seen as the work of "script-kiddies."
In reality, it isn't much different from using the Maker to begin with, since they are just tools that others have written to assist in the generation of games, but to me, at least, having to give credit for a whole half of my game's systems to some script-writer (who happens to be the wellspring everyone else is filling their troughs from) makes the newer makers and their advanced features lose a bit of their luster.
Just my opinion.
That said, there are still projects that push the boundaries of what the newer makers can do. Progress still happens, it just seems to have slowed to glacial time. It was a long way from Kittyhawk to the first 747. The jump from there to modern aircraft is no less of an accomplishment, it just isn't as broad of a stroke.
Progress, like the Devil, is in the details.
Well, yeah, BloodRose, you're stating something all right... an opinion, not a fact!
And do I read it wrong or are you admitting to posting the opening message just to stir shit up? Besides, what exactly is it that you posit? That you're no longer 16 and too experienced to see home-made games as fresh? I bet you a dollar if you were 16 now and discovered RM for the first time, plenty of those games you put down as derivative you would view as being as original as ABL or, khem, Chimera Report were to you back during (pre-) GW days.
Get a grip, man. You're bashing elitism, but your posts reek of the same petty politics that destroyed GW and other sites from within back in the day, when, you know, no one actually made games, just talked about making them, with only a handful of people producing anything of value.
How about making your own ABL and showing the hoi polloi how it's done first?
And do I read it wrong or are you admitting to posting the opening message just to stir shit up? Besides, what exactly is it that you posit? That you're no longer 16 and too experienced to see home-made games as fresh? I bet you a dollar if you were 16 now and discovered RM for the first time, plenty of those games you put down as derivative you would view as being as original as ABL or, khem, Chimera Report were to you back during (pre-) GW days.
Get a grip, man. You're bashing elitism, but your posts reek of the same petty politics that destroyed GW and other sites from within back in the day, when, you know, no one actually made games, just talked about making them, with only a handful of people producing anything of value.
If you know what makes a great game, then I challenge you to create something that will go down in RM history. Create the next Ydunn Ymiraldor. Create the next A Blurred Line. Create the next Dragon Destiny, Kinetic Cipher, Chimera Report, or Romancing Walker.
How about making your own ABL and showing the hoi polloi how it's done first?
Personally I think the outstanding quality in the old RM classics like Romancing Walker for example, and etc, was a solid overall game-design, as in good game mechanics and good general flow in the game.
Games that pushed boundaries of the engines might have been impressive, but if those games weren't good for anything else than doing something new, I wouldn't really call them good (if they weren't) or particularly noteworthy.
Good RM games are still released every now and then, though they are harder to come across than the regular newbie games that lack proper focus or design. But isn't this how it's always been?
So uh, I feel the OP is rather provocative and states something that has been discussed over and over again... so yeah.
To summarize: Experienced people release better games, which I think seems pretty self-explanatory.
Games that pushed boundaries of the engines might have been impressive, but if those games weren't good for anything else than doing something new, I wouldn't really call them good (if they weren't) or particularly noteworthy.
Good RM games are still released every now and then, though they are harder to come across than the regular newbie games that lack proper focus or design. But isn't this how it's always been?
So uh, I feel the OP is rather provocative and states something that has been discussed over and over again... so yeah.
To summarize: Experienced people release better games, which I think seems pretty self-explanatory.
eplipswich
2728
Instinct, may I suggest you play Last Scenario and Exit Fate. Those are the games that broke RMXP boundaries and went into RM history. They are not found in this website, but just by Googling these two games, you'll instantly see these two games appear.
Ah, the good old "You're a bunch of elitist assholes" rethoric. Well, I guess it was about time for this topic to arise again. But compared to how it used to be, things are pretty tame nowadays, so I don't know where is this coming from or why it is being so overblown... Now, I certainly don't have any games to my name but I've been around for a while, mostly on Spanish communities and sporadically in English ones and I've seen things. I've seen this general trend the OP is talking about, but I cannot see how this is a bad thing.
1.- It's only natural to expect more from newcomers today. Back in the day 'we' only had our own experience playing FF6 to go by. Gee, you were lucky if rm2k's help file was translated in your language! But nowadays people have tons of documentation available to them. Tutorials, videos, etc. They have FF6 dissected to its most 'insignificant' of details and served in a silver plate. To expect them to have the same low entry level that we had is not elitism, is just unreasonable! ...All you need to do is learn, newcomers! Practice and Feedback are still the Meat and Potatoes of this hobby, but you have a great advantage 'we' didn't have: Years upon years of Theory. Seize it! Don't just wonder why nobody pays attention to your "first effort RTP game".
2.- Like it or not, videogames are an interdisciplinary thing. That's why so many people work in them. And sure, I think it was great when 'we' made games "just for fun" not knowing any better, but we've grown up ever since then. We now have experience in such areas like: creative writing, graphic design, music composing, programming, you name it! So, it's only natural that we try to incorporate in our hobby the things that we know today... I can go to your screens and talk about this and about that, and vice-versa. But this does not constitutes being a jerk or being elitist. It's just our way to share our knowledge with each other. And the more you're willing to absorb, the more you can apply to your game, the better it will be. That's it. There's nothing more to it.
Now i'll tell you why I don't have any games to my name. Because while "Going down rm history" is a tempting idea, I feel I've learned so much in these past years that quite frankly, I don't need it. I'm just happy constantly renewing my ideas and improving my previous work. And I feel I'll never learn everything that there is out there! ...That's why it bothers me when people take such a complacent approach to this hobby. I know that we're just amateurs, but we should make the most of whatever little time we have left here...
Edit: Wait, what's the subject of this thread anyway? Elitism or crappy games? Those two seem to be rather contradictory to me. o_O
1.- It's only natural to expect more from newcomers today. Back in the day 'we' only had our own experience playing FF6 to go by. Gee, you were lucky if rm2k's help file was translated in your language! But nowadays people have tons of documentation available to them. Tutorials, videos, etc. They have FF6 dissected to its most 'insignificant' of details and served in a silver plate. To expect them to have the same low entry level that we had is not elitism, is just unreasonable! ...All you need to do is learn, newcomers! Practice and Feedback are still the Meat and Potatoes of this hobby, but you have a great advantage 'we' didn't have: Years upon years of Theory. Seize it! Don't just wonder why nobody pays attention to your "first effort RTP game".
2.- Like it or not, videogames are an interdisciplinary thing. That's why so many people work in them. And sure, I think it was great when 'we' made games "just for fun" not knowing any better, but we've grown up ever since then. We now have experience in such areas like: creative writing, graphic design, music composing, programming, you name it! So, it's only natural that we try to incorporate in our hobby the things that we know today... I can go to your screens and talk about this and about that, and vice-versa. But this does not constitutes being a jerk or being elitist. It's just our way to share our knowledge with each other. And the more you're willing to absorb, the more you can apply to your game, the better it will be. That's it. There's nothing more to it.
Now i'll tell you why I don't have any games to my name. Because while "Going down rm history" is a tempting idea, I feel I've learned so much in these past years that quite frankly, I don't need it. I'm just happy constantly renewing my ideas and improving my previous work. And I feel I'll never learn everything that there is out there! ...That's why it bothers me when people take such a complacent approach to this hobby. I know that we're just amateurs, but we should make the most of whatever little time we have left here...
Edit: Wait, what's the subject of this thread anyway? Elitism or crappy games? Those two seem to be rather contradictory to me. o_O
Shinan
4314
I almost kinda agree with LockeZ, though not in such tough hard words. (because I like to be more passive-aggressive)
I look at these old RM games and sure some of them blew my mind. I remember when I first encountered RM "holy shit, RPGs made easy this is the awesomest thing ever" and "holy shit someone recreated Tetris in RM2k. Ooh all these custom systems."
But I'll be honest.
What's so innovative about creating a subpar copy of another game/genre in a maker that was not created for it?
Sure it's not "innovative" anymore to create a platformer or shmup in RM but in reality it never was. It was just as Lockez said, lot of hard work and effort. Doing things that are so easy to do these days. And there might be the old sense that "Man in my days I had to walk 15 miles to school in ten-foot snow uphill both ways! Kids these days have it so easy."
Of course I'll be the first to admit that I don't really play any games and don't really know what's going on. And I'm a graphics whore that looks at screenshots and go "shit man, that's impressive" or alternatively "shit man that's just a menu, what's so cool about that?" But I think there's a lot more variety in the games (based on screenshots) than there ever was. The diversity is huge in genre, setting and everything.
It's the same thing I say to everyone (including myself) who tends to claim that "man it was so much better in the past". No. It really never was. Movies weren't better, games weren't better, music wasn't better (well maybe it was. No it really wasn't) and the RM community wasn't better.
Now I've used a lot of words to say nothing. But I guess that's just fitting for a topic like this that essentially did the very same thing.
I look at these old RM games and sure some of them blew my mind. I remember when I first encountered RM "holy shit, RPGs made easy this is the awesomest thing ever" and "holy shit someone recreated Tetris in RM2k. Ooh all these custom systems."
But I'll be honest.
I have not seen, to date, any RM game made with RMXP or later that I would consider delivered anything innovative the way that RM2k broke boundaries.
What's so innovative about creating a subpar copy of another game/genre in a maker that was not created for it?
Sure it's not "innovative" anymore to create a platformer or shmup in RM but in reality it never was. It was just as Lockez said, lot of hard work and effort. Doing things that are so easy to do these days. And there might be the old sense that "Man in my days I had to walk 15 miles to school in ten-foot snow uphill both ways! Kids these days have it so easy."
Of course I'll be the first to admit that I don't really play any games and don't really know what's going on. And I'm a graphics whore that looks at screenshots and go "shit man, that's impressive" or alternatively "shit man that's just a menu, what's so cool about that?" But I think there's a lot more variety in the games (based on screenshots) than there ever was. The diversity is huge in genre, setting and everything.
It's the same thing I say to everyone (including myself) who tends to claim that "man it was so much better in the past". No. It really never was. Movies weren't better, games weren't better, music wasn't better (well maybe it was. No it really wasn't) and the RM community wasn't better.
Now I've used a lot of words to say nothing. But I guess that's just fitting for a topic like this that essentially did the very same thing.
Skie Fortress
2394
I think the essence of what Instinct is trying to say is that he hasn't seen games that have pushed the boundaries of the developer's abilities and imagination, while taking full advantage of the engine to deliver a fun, well designed experience. In a sense, it was probably bad wording to liken pushing the limits of Rm2k/2k3 to pushing the limits of RMXP/VX/A. Because the latter makers have few limits for what it brings to the table.
I tend to agree however that PROPORTIONALLY, many of the games made in the latter makers have not truly pushed the limits. Not only of the engine, but of the design and imagination of the developer. But they do exist.
Exit Fate, Last Scenario, Nocturne Rebirth, Granciel Witches, Star Stealing Prince, I Miss The Sunrise, Memories of Mana 1/2, pretty much any of Anaryu's games, just to name a few off the top of my head.
One thing they all have in common is that they each present unique experiences hard pressed to be found in other projects. You can really feel what the creators were trying to convey with those games. They just have so much personality permeating throughout their entire design and they're just enjoyable to play. Simply put, they have defined their own identity.
Now by comparison, many other RM projects, not just in the modern makers but overall, fall short of defining their own identity. And one of the big reasons for this I feel, is something Killer-Wolf pointed out.
Note that the availability of these script materials, and graphical materials, or musical materials, does not automatically make the use of them bad. What makes it bad are the many developers that flock to the same sources and use the same materials without honing and refining them to fit their project's identity.
And that's pretty much the essence of what I feel is wrong with the modern RM community at large. Many, many projects that just fail to have their own 'identity' that separates them from other projects. An identity that the player can feel and observe as they play.
An identity is more than just graphics or systems, or story. It's a combination of each of them, working in conjunction with each other to define the game as a whole.
I tend to agree however that PROPORTIONALLY, many of the games made in the latter makers have not truly pushed the limits. Not only of the engine, but of the design and imagination of the developer. But they do exist.
Exit Fate, Last Scenario, Nocturne Rebirth, Granciel Witches, Star Stealing Prince, I Miss The Sunrise, Memories of Mana 1/2, pretty much any of Anaryu's games, just to name a few off the top of my head.
One thing they all have in common is that they each present unique experiences hard pressed to be found in other projects. You can really feel what the creators were trying to convey with those games. They just have so much personality permeating throughout their entire design and they're just enjoyable to play. Simply put, they have defined their own identity.
Now by comparison, many other RM projects, not just in the modern makers but overall, fall short of defining their own identity. And one of the big reasons for this I feel, is something Killer-Wolf pointed out.
"...To continue in psuedo-hacker parlance, a lot of the VX and XP projects that make use of well known/circulated scripts could be seen as the work of "script-kiddies."
In reality, it isn't much different from using the Maker to begin with, since they are just tools that others have written to assist in the generation of games, but to me, at least, having to give credit for a whole half of my game's systems to some script-writer (who happens to be the wellspring everyone else is filling their troughs from) makes the newer makers and their advanced features lose a bit of their luster."
Note that the availability of these script materials, and graphical materials, or musical materials, does not automatically make the use of them bad. What makes it bad are the many developers that flock to the same sources and use the same materials without honing and refining them to fit their project's identity.
And that's pretty much the essence of what I feel is wrong with the modern RM community at large. Many, many projects that just fail to have their own 'identity' that separates them from other projects. An identity that the player can feel and observe as they play.
An identity is more than just graphics or systems, or story. It's a combination of each of them, working in conjunction with each other to define the game as a whole.
author=Skie Fortress
What makes it bad are the many developers that flock to the same sources and use the same materials without honing and refining them to fit their project's identity.
And that's pretty much the essence of what I feel is wrong with the modern RM community at large. Many, many projects that just fail to have their own 'identity' that separates them from other projects. An identity that the player can feel and observe as they play.
An identity is more than just graphics or systems, or story. It's a combination of each of them, working in conjunction with each other to define the game as a whole.
Do you have any examples (excluding Forever's End) of games like this, that are still generally considered as showcase of good RM games of the "modern RM community?" (Despite of lacking an identity of their own.)
If you're talking about the majority of RM games that fall to mediocre pool, or worse, hasn't that pool been there all the time. I mean, I don't see how the "direction" of the "modern RM community" is much different from before, other than the new engines introducing a lot of new people to the community.
@Happy - I guess since the newer makers give you so much more to work with it's kind of a shame so many games have ended up looking or trying to be the same? I think that might be what Skie was getting at.
A game should be about the whole package, not just the pretty ribbon on top.
A game should be about the whole package, not just the pretty ribbon on top.
Let’s see you push RMVXAce the way these greats pushed RM2k.
Not interested. Also I don't have money.
UPRC
5516
While I respect Bloodrose's opinion, I think that he's looking at RPG Maker's past with rose tinted glasses. The games back in the day are no better or worse than games today.
If I were to say that console video games were better back in my day than they are today, people would tear me a new one and rightfully so. Why? Because I'd be wrong. It's all just nostalgia. As a whole, I'd be putting an entire generation of consoles on a pedestal merely because a few games from said generation are among my favourites of all time. As an example, Final Fantasy 6 and Ogre Battle MotBQ are my two favourite games of all time... but I do not say that the SNES 16 bit games were the best we've ever had because I'm smart enough to know that a lot of games released on the Genesis and SNES were utter shit. Seriously, there were more bad games back in the day then there are now.
I try to look at the timeline of RPG Maker games objectively. A lot of the games back in our early days were good. Even Phylomortis 2 was awesome despite being impossible to understand a word of.
It's terribly unfair to say that modern RPG Maker games cannot hold a candle to the ones we were making/playing ten years ago. They're not better. I haven't played enough modern RPG Maker games, but the ones I have played were very good. My personal favourite modern RPG Maker game is Exit Fate, an XP game. Sure it rips off Suikoden so blatantly that it's ridiculous, but so did Legion Saga back in the day... and know what? Exit Fate kicks Legion Saga's ass to Hell and back several times over.
I seriously feel that a lot of the so called good games that we think back to weren't that great at all. Some were, but... Dragon Destiny? No way. Kinetic Cipher? I remember playing it and I felt that the game had horrendous flow and that the CBS wasn't even remotely fast enough. The game stunk badly.
The only two guys who I feel are worthy of being dubbed as "legends" are Lysander and SovanJedi, because they really did do great things with the resources they had (Lys was a better writer, but Sovan was a jack of all trades).
There are tons of great games being made in XP, VX, and VX Ace. All you need to do is look around a bit. If anything I would say that the overall quality of RPG Maker games has increased significantly over the last few years, so daring people to make a game as good as Dragon Destiny, Kinetic Cipher, or even Chimera Report is a pretty easy dare to throw out there. It's already been done dozens of times.
If I were to say that console video games were better back in my day than they are today, people would tear me a new one and rightfully so. Why? Because I'd be wrong. It's all just nostalgia. As a whole, I'd be putting an entire generation of consoles on a pedestal merely because a few games from said generation are among my favourites of all time. As an example, Final Fantasy 6 and Ogre Battle MotBQ are my two favourite games of all time... but I do not say that the SNES 16 bit games were the best we've ever had because I'm smart enough to know that a lot of games released on the Genesis and SNES were utter shit. Seriously, there were more bad games back in the day then there are now.
I try to look at the timeline of RPG Maker games objectively. A lot of the games back in our early days were good. Even Phylomortis 2 was awesome despite being impossible to understand a word of.
It's terribly unfair to say that modern RPG Maker games cannot hold a candle to the ones we were making/playing ten years ago. They're not better. I haven't played enough modern RPG Maker games, but the ones I have played were very good. My personal favourite modern RPG Maker game is Exit Fate, an XP game. Sure it rips off Suikoden so blatantly that it's ridiculous, but so did Legion Saga back in the day... and know what? Exit Fate kicks Legion Saga's ass to Hell and back several times over.
I seriously feel that a lot of the so called good games that we think back to weren't that great at all. Some were, but... Dragon Destiny? No way. Kinetic Cipher? I remember playing it and I felt that the game had horrendous flow and that the CBS wasn't even remotely fast enough. The game stunk badly.
The only two guys who I feel are worthy of being dubbed as "legends" are Lysander and SovanJedi, because they really did do great things with the resources they had (Lys was a better writer, but Sovan was a jack of all trades).
There are tons of great games being made in XP, VX, and VX Ace. All you need to do is look around a bit. If anything I would say that the overall quality of RPG Maker games has increased significantly over the last few years, so daring people to make a game as good as Dragon Destiny, Kinetic Cipher, or even Chimera Report is a pretty easy dare to throw out there. It's already been done dozens of times.
Let me put this into perspective. I have not seen, to date, any RM game made with RMXP or later that I would consider delivered anything innovative the way that RM2k broke boundaries.
Most RPG Maker XP (or above) users are script kiddies for most part. When you browse games made with newer makers, you will often notice "Oh, I saw that battle system in some another game. And that too."
It never really happens with RM2K/3 games that are more unique than the others, system-wise, gameplay-wise or somethingelse-wise.
