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Any RM games/prototypes with a purer grappling combat system?
If Sauce and Biggamefreak actually man up to their posts, I don't even need to post 75% of my last reply.
I already brought up PnP grappling and Biggamefreak introduced the more direct DnD links while also going out on the effort to align it with a JRPG stat system. How should I know he would come back with "Your post lack coherence".
Ditto with Sauce. Most of the formatted parts occurred because I had to show him the insanity of making predictions that were already stated/predicted to happen in the OP.
Most of my post-OP long post replies have been this way. If I'm not busy bringing up statements that state I already addressed this, I'm busy dealing with people who pretend to have something to say but then cop out making my own replies unnecessary. Of course the debugging thread doesn't count because I was actually asking for help and because that's where most of the trolls made their stand.
Frankly that's just the nature of the beast. If guys give 50 and I give 50, we can all meet up at 100. Lengthy posts that are only as lengthy as necessary.
Instead, guys give less I give more and then they run away and I have to defend two and more sides. One side taking into account addressing similar people who have the same misconceptions that might post and the other side whom I have to point out the clear flaw of their statements so that things need not be restated or I can have the advantage of linking/quoting back to a previous statement instead of dealing/re-addressing a statement that is so retarded it shouldn't have been brought up anyway and is based on false accusations anyway such as "Of course the rest of your posts have nothing to do with your topic."
There's also the fact that these people aren't trolls. At least if they are, they are being too stealthy and doing it wrong. These are guys who appear to give up their own time to contribute to a thread thinking they have something to offer and they go out of way to post things that can branch out to more text. When you give respect to the actual contents of these guys, you're bound to have a longer reply too. Believe me I would love it if these guys actually make it so I don't have to write more.
I mean just look at statements like these: That's entirely two different concepts, and you'd get much better responses if you kept them separate instead of mashing them together into one topic.
If I don't bold this:
The below is not related to a grappling combat system but I don't know how to explain what I mean by purer grappling system without explaining it.
The guy would actually go on thinking there are two entirely different concepts being talked about when there's only one. (It's not like he will come around and figure this out on his own before writing his next post) Add that this is one of those guys that actually reply to the thread rather than troll and cause trouble, do you really think it's not to my benefit to correct this guy's premise so that he could actually align himself to the topic and properly contribute?
Threads like mine are already not designed for the general masses so I can't just shoo the few who try to contribute. The last thing I need is these same people who have some understanding go full retard on me because they missed one or two key sentences/points/concepts.
I already brought up PnP grappling and Biggamefreak introduced the more direct DnD links while also going out on the effort to align it with a JRPG stat system. How should I know he would come back with "Your post lack coherence".
Ditto with Sauce. Most of the formatted parts occurred because I had to show him the insanity of making predictions that were already stated/predicted to happen in the OP.
Most of my post-OP long post replies have been this way. If I'm not busy bringing up statements that state I already addressed this, I'm busy dealing with people who pretend to have something to say but then cop out making my own replies unnecessary. Of course the debugging thread doesn't count because I was actually asking for help and because that's where most of the trolls made their stand.
Frankly that's just the nature of the beast. If guys give 50 and I give 50, we can all meet up at 100. Lengthy posts that are only as lengthy as necessary.
Instead, guys give less I give more and then they run away and I have to defend two and more sides. One side taking into account addressing similar people who have the same misconceptions that might post and the other side whom I have to point out the clear flaw of their statements so that things need not be restated or I can have the advantage of linking/quoting back to a previous statement instead of dealing/re-addressing a statement that is so retarded it shouldn't have been brought up anyway and is based on false accusations anyway such as "Of course the rest of your posts have nothing to do with your topic."
There's also the fact that these people aren't trolls. At least if they are, they are being too stealthy and doing it wrong. These are guys who appear to give up their own time to contribute to a thread thinking they have something to offer and they go out of way to post things that can branch out to more text. When you give respect to the actual contents of these guys, you're bound to have a longer reply too. Believe me I would love it if these guys actually make it so I don't have to write more.
I mean just look at statements like these: That's entirely two different concepts, and you'd get much better responses if you kept them separate instead of mashing them together into one topic.
If I don't bold this:
The below is not related to a grappling combat system but I don't know how to explain what I mean by purer grappling system without explaining it.
The guy would actually go on thinking there are two entirely different concepts being talked about when there's only one. (It's not like he will come around and figure this out on his own before writing his next post) Add that this is one of those guys that actually reply to the thread rather than troll and cause trouble, do you really think it's not to my benefit to correct this guy's premise so that he could actually align himself to the topic and properly contribute?
Threads like mine are already not designed for the general masses so I can't just shoo the few who try to contribute. The last thing I need is these same people who have some understanding go full retard on me because they missed one or two key sentences/points/concepts.
Any RM games/prototypes with a purer grappling combat system?
There's a lack of coherence in the actual DnD Handbook on grappling. That's why it's not very realistic. I organize the criticism to the best way you can highlight the very obvious multiple flawed conceptual game design aspects of that system.
Responsibility falls on the guy who brought that up and runs away when it's actually analyzed.
Some of the other ignorant stuff in that link with regards to grappling:
A grapple attack begins with grabbing a foe.
For most player characters, grabbing a foe for a grapple attack requires a successful melee touch attack.
The grab provokes an attack of opportunity from the foe being grabbed
Believe me I could have done a lot more if I was actually writing a criticism article. That's how bad the grappling pages were.
I saved you guys the trouble by bringing up some of the most obvious aspects. If you don't want to touch any details and just cry lack of coherence then it's very clear where your priorities lie.
Oh and Sauce, again, you have already experienced this in the Visual Aspects vs. Others thread how sometimes it's not on you that's the problem but on people who think you didn't mention something you did mention. I suggest you actually do that before throwing out wrong predictions like maybe I am going to write an essay of why they're related and bringing up straw men like I'm somehow claiming multi bar battle systems have something to do with grappling when the first sentence in the OP states:
The below is not related to a grappling combat system but I don't know how to explain what I mean by purer grappling system without explaining it.
Also something to keep in mind is that an image is not a video. The way those bars are so close, as an image, it's easy to mistake it as one bar.
Also the reason why I just dismissed it as one bar instead of speaking more of it is because the system is just invalid for being a mini-game. I'm talking about a general combat system mechanic. I didn't want to touch on this issue at all because as you implied I don't want to write an essay on the obvious.
Also ask yourself if this question has any coherency:
Now... is the question about actual programming of an idea or just the theory?
I hope you yourself understand what a theory is? It's that stuff that requires experimentation and verification methods like double blind tests?
There's no such thing in the world as "just the theory".
...and I also hope you can connect two and two together. I don't really want to insult your intelligence but how in the world can a thread request a game/prototype and have it not be about "the actual programming of an idea"?
Also, again, you're stretching the retardation of your conclusions. No one has ever brought up the term "multi-variable grappling" and you're the one on the same sentence claiming the rest of my post has nothing to do with my topic?!
Not that multi-variable grappling can't be related to the topic with the right definition but you didn't even specify the variables that are being talked about. Every game including WWE games have multi-variables. It doesn't mean they automatically count as purer grappling by design.
Again, I'm not trying to insult you as a person but just from the way you guys post - you throw out such retarded wordings, run off and then expect me to organize the incorrect/flawed/incomplete references you brought up?
Just your screenshot alone I could go on an entire essay using the same wording I already gave in the OP to specifically point out what's not pure grappling about it but then you will just say I am being incoherent because you immediately insist that maybe you got the main point correctly.
Look...Sauce. I admit I was mistaken with that image because of the deceptive optical illusion created by the image but here's how you can tell when a system is easily not what a system someone else is talking about. I could make a pure copy paste analogy with no additional words and I can still show the core flaw as to why what you're talking about isn't a pure grappling system because it's so far off (It is a dual bar system that much I admit):
There's two bars in my minigame. Not one. Endurance and momentum. You lose if either endurance runs out or momentum swings to the opponent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strength_athletics
Strength athletics, more generally known as strongman competitions, is a sport which tests competitors' strength in a variety of different ways. Some of the disciplines are similar to those in powerlifting and some powerlifters have also successfully competed in strongman competitions. However, strongman events also test physical endurance to a degree not found in powerlifting or other strength-based sports.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grappling
Grappling refers to techniques, maneuvers, and counters applied to an opponent in order to gain a physical advantage, such as improving relative position, escaping, submitting, or injury to the opponent.
Responsibility falls on the guy who brought that up and runs away when it's actually analyzed.
Some of the other ignorant stuff in that link with regards to grappling:
A grapple attack begins with grabbing a foe.
For most player characters, grabbing a foe for a grapple attack requires a successful melee touch attack.
The grab provokes an attack of opportunity from the foe being grabbed
Believe me I could have done a lot more if I was actually writing a criticism article. That's how bad the grappling pages were.
I saved you guys the trouble by bringing up some of the most obvious aspects. If you don't want to touch any details and just cry lack of coherence then it's very clear where your priorities lie.
Oh and Sauce, again, you have already experienced this in the Visual Aspects vs. Others thread how sometimes it's not on you that's the problem but on people who think you didn't mention something you did mention. I suggest you actually do that before throwing out wrong predictions like maybe I am going to write an essay of why they're related and bringing up straw men like I'm somehow claiming multi bar battle systems have something to do with grappling when the first sentence in the OP states:
The below is not related to a grappling combat system but I don't know how to explain what I mean by purer grappling system without explaining it.
Also something to keep in mind is that an image is not a video. The way those bars are so close, as an image, it's easy to mistake it as one bar.
Also the reason why I just dismissed it as one bar instead of speaking more of it is because the system is just invalid for being a mini-game. I'm talking about a general combat system mechanic. I didn't want to touch on this issue at all because as you implied I don't want to write an essay on the obvious.
Also ask yourself if this question has any coherency:
Now... is the question about actual programming of an idea or just the theory?
I hope you yourself understand what a theory is? It's that stuff that requires experimentation and verification methods like double blind tests?
There's no such thing in the world as "just the theory".
...and I also hope you can connect two and two together. I don't really want to insult your intelligence but how in the world can a thread request a game/prototype and have it not be about "the actual programming of an idea"?
Also, again, you're stretching the retardation of your conclusions. No one has ever brought up the term "multi-variable grappling" and you're the one on the same sentence claiming the rest of my post has nothing to do with my topic?!
Not that multi-variable grappling can't be related to the topic with the right definition but you didn't even specify the variables that are being talked about. Every game including WWE games have multi-variables. It doesn't mean they automatically count as purer grappling by design.
Again, I'm not trying to insult you as a person but just from the way you guys post - you throw out such retarded wordings, run off and then expect me to organize the incorrect/flawed/incomplete references you brought up?
Just your screenshot alone I could go on an entire essay using the same wording I already gave in the OP to specifically point out what's not pure grappling about it but then you will just say I am being incoherent because you immediately insist that maybe you got the main point correctly.
Look...Sauce. I admit I was mistaken with that image because of the deceptive optical illusion created by the image but here's how you can tell when a system is easily not what a system someone else is talking about. I could make a pure copy paste analogy with no additional words and I can still show the core flaw as to why what you're talking about isn't a pure grappling system because it's so far off (It is a dual bar system that much I admit):
There's two bars in my minigame. Not one. Endurance and momentum. You lose if either endurance runs out or momentum swings to the opponent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strength_athletics
Strength athletics, more generally known as strongman competitions, is a sport which tests competitors' strength in a variety of different ways. Some of the disciplines are similar to those in powerlifting and some powerlifters have also successfully competed in strongman competitions. However, strongman events also test physical endurance to a degree not found in powerlifting or other strength-based sports.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grappling
Grappling refers to techniques, maneuvers, and counters applied to an opponent in order to gain a physical advantage, such as improving relative position, escaping, submitting, or injury to the opponent.
Any RM games/prototypes with a purer grappling combat system?
@ elipswich and @ Sauce, no. Those are one bar combat systems.
For simplicity's sake, imagine if the MP bar in a combat system was replaced with a system that goes up and once it goes up, you lose.
Yes, Live-A-Live wasn't a pure grappling system. I wrote that post to elaborate on why a grappling based system might not be relating to pure grappling.
Things like the DnD handbook is what I was alluding to when I said grappling was convoluted in PnP. I'm not sure if the old post I had read was referring to 3.0 and 4.0 rules though but look at your description:
Grappling roles are always opposed with an opposing roll.
This makes it not ideal for simple combat systems but it's also too luck based where as in real life, the reason that grappling is effective is because it's more of a free action and there's always a cardio blowback to a semi-successful grapple (and there's no zero-sum fail grapple criteria) where as in DnD, from the sound of it, counter-grapples are purely defensive so they aren't as valuable as the other systems in DnD. I haven't played an actual PnP system though but I would imagine it can get convoluted when all grapple initiates are considered equal and then all the reward is a paralyze->allowance for chain attack.
Also I'm using a 3 bar system. My idea did plan for stats to improve the bar but only within the terms of lengthening the reduction like HP bar increases.
The problem with linking str to the force of the grapple is that grappling is more technique than strength and where strength is present, it requires superior force at the price of simply pushing ahead as opposed to pinning. Then pinning is a different form related much more to strength endurance than explosiveness.
Of course the point isn't to make a super realistic grappling system, just to have a system that actually takes into account grappling's special qualities as opposed to making it a gimmicky third choice when physical and magical systems are so powerful.
For example, one of the basic values of grappling systems are that they are taxing on the body. Even with high strength, with the wrong leverage then someone can quickly pop out. It's not your traditional resilience. It's a more advanced paralyze/pin system.
That's only the first quirk. The most valuable conditional quirks after that is what revolutionizes the combat system.
Some examples:
-In a game with no formation systems, grappling can create a pseudo-formation system that's more advanced.
-A repeat of my above example: If you can use someone you grappled as a shield, that redefines tanking and it could even allow for a game with zero tanks to have a tanking alternative. Nevermind the attention to carefully time powerful attacks for fear that the opponent uses a mage as a shield
-It introduces true attrition. Many times attrition in JRPGs aren't ideal except for debuffing bosses because the faster you wittle down the hp of someone the better and the less healing items you need to expend. You also are rarely rewarded for paralyzing an enemy because they don't have to expend their MPs when they are subdued. This makes attrition often ideal only when there is only one opponent
-Another value is that it's a different form of stat debuff. There's a reason some skills are often named "cut arm" to disable an attacker's strength but then the attacker could just recover or else it's too unbalanced. Grappling systems addresses some of the flaws by creating a "third range". Melee/range and sacrificial. (Near death opponent grabs and his teammates casts an AoE spell, opponent dies but they get an extra turn that's different from paralyze)
-Another potential thing grappling could do is to redefine ambushes as well as push the combat into a 1 vs. 1 fight. This is more common sense in PnP but in rpgs it can be troublesome especially for games like the default combat system when there's no caterpillar combat formation but even those that have these, you often see the troublesome strategic advise of fighting/luring your opponents in a 1 vs. 1 fight through "bird's eye" view abuse as opposed to a system closer to real fights where it's done within the flow of footwork.
-Finally another benefit of a purer grappling system is that it motivates systems to enable things such as endurance bars. An ambitious developer can expand this to the equivalent of the JRPG non-violent kill for storyline purposes where you exhaust your opponent. For simpler usage, the fact that it's not linked to HP is the point of a 2/3 bar tug of war system.
In a 2 bar system for example, a basic combat system suddenly has a richer strategy system and makes you pay more attention if suddenly you get 50 Hp/50 lust meter.
Imagine if you attack the HP bar and it went down to 20 but your enemy attacks the lust meter and it goes up to 75. Do you try to stave off one meter or do you continue on attacking? It even gets more strategic when it comes to healing and spells.
You can't just heal your HP and think, "Oh I just have to double potion use and ignore my MP since survival trumps all." Same goes for spells: Imagine if spells are linked to fatigue and because a grappling system is present, there's no need to make spellcasters a decent physical attacker at all. You'd get strategies such as a Wizard grappling and then being given an MP recovery item by a teammate. Of course for that sequence to even be a viable regular occuring choice, traditional tank stats like str, def and HP shouldn't be linked to grappling.
To be honest though, these are only vague examples. The reason I even asked is because I don't totally know the full ramifications and full potential of purer grappling systems. I just read somethings here and there and I just thought through some examples here and there.
Edit: Another clear cut difference between DnD Handbook grappling from purer grappling systems is from watching how some cartoons like Shrek defeat giant monsters. Obviously this shouldn't be taken too seriously but the elements of why grappling is misrepresented still shows: In movies and novels, it's ideal to grapple because if you succeed a dragon has to topple you before their breath attacks hit you. Of course in a more sensible fantasy setting being swung off = instant stomp death. Still...compared to traditional DnD, grapples trump sword/magic styles in enough applicable situations to stand on it's own. Yet DnD appears to not understand that. Making grappling more like power lifting competitions. The consequence of not designing for a purer grappling criteria results in grappling being only slightly more useful against opponents and opponents one can overpower no less. Almost the complete opposite of why grappling allows a smaller or weaker person in real life to make up for their deficiencies against a stronger and larger opponent.
For simplicity's sake, imagine if the MP bar in a combat system was replaced with a system that goes up and once it goes up, you lose.
Yes, Live-A-Live wasn't a pure grappling system. I wrote that post to elaborate on why a grappling based system might not be relating to pure grappling.
Things like the DnD handbook is what I was alluding to when I said grappling was convoluted in PnP. I'm not sure if the old post I had read was referring to 3.0 and 4.0 rules though but look at your description:
Grappling roles are always opposed with an opposing roll.
This makes it not ideal for simple combat systems but it's also too luck based where as in real life, the reason that grappling is effective is because it's more of a free action and there's always a cardio blowback to a semi-successful grapple (and there's no zero-sum fail grapple criteria) where as in DnD, from the sound of it, counter-grapples are purely defensive so they aren't as valuable as the other systems in DnD. I haven't played an actual PnP system though but I would imagine it can get convoluted when all grapple initiates are considered equal and then all the reward is a paralyze->allowance for chain attack.
Also I'm using a 3 bar system. My idea did plan for stats to improve the bar but only within the terms of lengthening the reduction like HP bar increases.
The problem with linking str to the force of the grapple is that grappling is more technique than strength and where strength is present, it requires superior force at the price of simply pushing ahead as opposed to pinning. Then pinning is a different form related much more to strength endurance than explosiveness.
Of course the point isn't to make a super realistic grappling system, just to have a system that actually takes into account grappling's special qualities as opposed to making it a gimmicky third choice when physical and magical systems are so powerful.
For example, one of the basic values of grappling systems are that they are taxing on the body. Even with high strength, with the wrong leverage then someone can quickly pop out. It's not your traditional resilience. It's a more advanced paralyze/pin system.
That's only the first quirk. The most valuable conditional quirks after that is what revolutionizes the combat system.
Some examples:
-In a game with no formation systems, grappling can create a pseudo-formation system that's more advanced.
-A repeat of my above example: If you can use someone you grappled as a shield, that redefines tanking and it could even allow for a game with zero tanks to have a tanking alternative. Nevermind the attention to carefully time powerful attacks for fear that the opponent uses a mage as a shield
-It introduces true attrition. Many times attrition in JRPGs aren't ideal except for debuffing bosses because the faster you wittle down the hp of someone the better and the less healing items you need to expend. You also are rarely rewarded for paralyzing an enemy because they don't have to expend their MPs when they are subdued. This makes attrition often ideal only when there is only one opponent
-Another value is that it's a different form of stat debuff. There's a reason some skills are often named "cut arm" to disable an attacker's strength but then the attacker could just recover or else it's too unbalanced. Grappling systems addresses some of the flaws by creating a "third range". Melee/range and sacrificial. (Near death opponent grabs and his teammates casts an AoE spell, opponent dies but they get an extra turn that's different from paralyze)
-Another potential thing grappling could do is to redefine ambushes as well as push the combat into a 1 vs. 1 fight. This is more common sense in PnP but in rpgs it can be troublesome especially for games like the default combat system when there's no caterpillar combat formation but even those that have these, you often see the troublesome strategic advise of fighting/luring your opponents in a 1 vs. 1 fight through "bird's eye" view abuse as opposed to a system closer to real fights where it's done within the flow of footwork.
-Finally another benefit of a purer grappling system is that it motivates systems to enable things such as endurance bars. An ambitious developer can expand this to the equivalent of the JRPG non-violent kill for storyline purposes where you exhaust your opponent. For simpler usage, the fact that it's not linked to HP is the point of a 2/3 bar tug of war system.
In a 2 bar system for example, a basic combat system suddenly has a richer strategy system and makes you pay more attention if suddenly you get 50 Hp/50 lust meter.
Imagine if you attack the HP bar and it went down to 20 but your enemy attacks the lust meter and it goes up to 75. Do you try to stave off one meter or do you continue on attacking? It even gets more strategic when it comes to healing and spells.
You can't just heal your HP and think, "Oh I just have to double potion use and ignore my MP since survival trumps all." Same goes for spells: Imagine if spells are linked to fatigue and because a grappling system is present, there's no need to make spellcasters a decent physical attacker at all. You'd get strategies such as a Wizard grappling and then being given an MP recovery item by a teammate. Of course for that sequence to even be a viable regular occuring choice, traditional tank stats like str, def and HP shouldn't be linked to grappling.
To be honest though, these are only vague examples. The reason I even asked is because I don't totally know the full ramifications and full potential of purer grappling systems. I just read somethings here and there and I just thought through some examples here and there.
Edit: Another clear cut difference between DnD Handbook grappling from purer grappling systems is from watching how some cartoons like Shrek defeat giant monsters. Obviously this shouldn't be taken too seriously but the elements of why grappling is misrepresented still shows: In movies and novels, it's ideal to grapple because if you succeed a dragon has to topple you before their breath attacks hit you. Of course in a more sensible fantasy setting being swung off = instant stomp death. Still...compared to traditional DnD, grapples trump sword/magic styles in enough applicable situations to stand on it's own. Yet DnD appears to not understand that. Making grappling more like power lifting competitions. The consequence of not designing for a purer grappling criteria results in grappling being only slightly more useful against opponents and opponents one can overpower no less. Almost the complete opposite of why grappling allows a smaller or weaker person in real life to make up for their deficiencies against a stronger and larger opponent.
How does debugging actually work?
It's not either but it's not worth elaborating. This thread is about debugging and not about me and you had your opportunities to derail those other threads before it got locked. I've also offered elipswich an argument map to prove otherwise, he didn't accept but it doesn't mean you guys did not have optimum opportunities to interject such thoughts when it was slightly relevant to a thread. There's absolutely no place for that here.
Oh and Sauce, no offence but I replied to your Visual Content vs. Other Content thread. I don't say this to insult you but until you prove otherwise, I'd hold back on claiming who can or can't manage to stay in one stream of consciousness. Maybe if you had tried to answer the topic, you'd have some leeway. As it is, you have enough problems with your own threads.
Oh and Sauce, no offence but I replied to your Visual Content vs. Other Content thread. I don't say this to insult you but until you prove otherwise, I'd hold back on claiming who can or can't manage to stay in one stream of consciousness. Maybe if you had tried to answer the topic, you'd have some leeway. As it is, you have enough problems with your own threads.
How does debugging actually work?
There's the internet and there's retards. Believe me it doesn't matter what I am.
It's one thing to troll in other threads and another thing to push posters away in a Help and Request thread with uncreative trolling.
Only on the surface. Notice how I actually borderline taunted a flame war and compared to my more respectful posts, this thread is still open?
Either way I win thanks to my reactions.
Because of my reactions, this thread's open a lot longer and there's still a chance someone can actually help which you did. Call it the power of popcorn or whatever but there's a pyschological benefit to making trolls act worse depending on a modder's preference. More helpful post, more people I know to pm.
If the thread gets locked, I win just as much because that's my intention anyway and it stops me from looking down further at a community just because a couple of trolls are uncreative and retarded. Can't happen if I don't react because then there won't be drama to keep a thread open.
Only downside is getting outright banned but being banned for these reasons also quickly reveals the character of the authorities on a forum alot faster and avoids a lot of future headaches.
Anyway the "use enough and then eventually learn" advise doesn't fly. That would make 100% of help threads moot. I can understand the logic of someone who's skilled enough that they can justify that (hell that contributes to why 99% of software does not have any decent manual by the standards of casual people) but even if you don't think a thread like this fits this sub-forum, proper attitude would be to ignore it. Even if you want to troll, at least make it entertaining or creative enough for everyone else so that it doesn't breed a culture of retard acceptance or push people away from answering. Believe me trolls can be potty trained. See the poster who cared enough that they even searched/drew me a harp held by a person with a kick-ass pose. (Hey, I'm critical of art but I can respect when a pic is attempting a hard pose with less than optimal anatomical measures and still be able to pull it off). They even followed my advice of actually showing the image now rather than hiding it.
Anyways back to the actual topic, could you define what a complicated system is? I would assume you meant code you yourself scripted but your example hints to something that sounds like it can apply to a map that simply has lots of parallel stuff (that's something I haven't looked up yet but I assume it meant two things going off at the same time) as well as being full of switches/variables events that open up at several points in the same map/scenario.
If it's the latter, how do you solve/find/narrow down actual bugs especially their work around behavior? It sounds like debug/test play mode still sounds like a quick verification system but the reason I made this post wasn't just to have debug mode explained but I thought debug mode/debugging was the key newbie interface to figure out how to discover and ideally solve some common bug behavior. Apparently not so outside of actual knowing how to read Ruby, is there no way to fix a game crippling bug other than work around it? Mind you I'm also stating game crippling based on total ignorance of the script. It's one thing if I have just forgotten or mis-toggled a script/event. That can be redone/re-experimented on through re-organizing the steps. It would be another thing if it looks right but a bug is still happening and I just happen to miss the threads listing this as a common bug because I jumped in too quickly into making the actual game and have zero idea on what keywords/statements to use to find the solution/actual bug.
Also, in case it isn't obvious, I wouldn't have found that link if I wasn't lurking/reading up on articles and tutorials. (It would be common sense too for anyone who actually pays attention to the url. That's not one of the big 3/4 rpg maker site and all the threads are locked. Why would anyone stumble much less start there if they weren't using Google/lurking to begin with?) There's also a plus that eventually I have to come back to some forum's help and request and the last thing I need is to be half-way in finishing a game only to find out the help and request is mostly bunk. Sorry but by that point, I don't have enough time to deal with shit like this and I would rather get on with finishing the game without the buggy event even if I have to delete an entire map.
It's one thing to troll in other threads and another thing to push posters away in a Help and Request thread with uncreative trolling.
author=Link_2112
haha Welcome to the internet! Those kinds of reactions will only make things worse. It's too late anyways xD
Is the question answered? In RPGMaker 2003 debug mode is a screen that tells you what the value is for every switch and variable. When I'm working on a complicated system and something isn't working right, I look through all the values to make sure they are what they are supposed to be. If a certain switch isn't turned ON then I know that is the cause of the error and I look through the event code to find out why it didn't get turned on.
That is what debug means to me.
Only on the surface. Notice how I actually borderline taunted a flame war and compared to my more respectful posts, this thread is still open?
Either way I win thanks to my reactions.
Because of my reactions, this thread's open a lot longer and there's still a chance someone can actually help which you did. Call it the power of popcorn or whatever but there's a pyschological benefit to making trolls act worse depending on a modder's preference. More helpful post, more people I know to pm.
If the thread gets locked, I win just as much because that's my intention anyway and it stops me from looking down further at a community just because a couple of trolls are uncreative and retarded. Can't happen if I don't react because then there won't be drama to keep a thread open.
Only downside is getting outright banned but being banned for these reasons also quickly reveals the character of the authorities on a forum alot faster and avoids a lot of future headaches.
Anyway the "use enough and then eventually learn" advise doesn't fly. That would make 100% of help threads moot. I can understand the logic of someone who's skilled enough that they can justify that (hell that contributes to why 99% of software does not have any decent manual by the standards of casual people) but even if you don't think a thread like this fits this sub-forum, proper attitude would be to ignore it. Even if you want to troll, at least make it entertaining or creative enough for everyone else so that it doesn't breed a culture of retard acceptance or push people away from answering. Believe me trolls can be potty trained. See the poster who cared enough that they even searched/drew me a harp held by a person with a kick-ass pose. (Hey, I'm critical of art but I can respect when a pic is attempting a hard pose with less than optimal anatomical measures and still be able to pull it off). They even followed my advice of actually showing the image now rather than hiding it.
Anyways back to the actual topic, could you define what a complicated system is? I would assume you meant code you yourself scripted but your example hints to something that sounds like it can apply to a map that simply has lots of parallel stuff (that's something I haven't looked up yet but I assume it meant two things going off at the same time) as well as being full of switches/variables events that open up at several points in the same map/scenario.
If it's the latter, how do you solve/find/narrow down actual bugs especially their work around behavior? It sounds like debug/test play mode still sounds like a quick verification system but the reason I made this post wasn't just to have debug mode explained but I thought debug mode/debugging was the key newbie interface to figure out how to discover and ideally solve some common bug behavior. Apparently not so outside of actual knowing how to read Ruby, is there no way to fix a game crippling bug other than work around it? Mind you I'm also stating game crippling based on total ignorance of the script. It's one thing if I have just forgotten or mis-toggled a script/event. That can be redone/re-experimented on through re-organizing the steps. It would be another thing if it looks right but a bug is still happening and I just happen to miss the threads listing this as a common bug because I jumped in too quickly into making the actual game and have zero idea on what keywords/statements to use to find the solution/actual bug.
Also, in case it isn't obvious, I wouldn't have found that link if I wasn't lurking/reading up on articles and tutorials. (It would be common sense too for anyone who actually pays attention to the url. That's not one of the big 3/4 rpg maker site and all the threads are locked. Why would anyone stumble much less start there if they weren't using Google/lurking to begin with?) There's also a plus that eventually I have to come back to some forum's help and request and the last thing I need is to be half-way in finishing a game only to find out the help and request is mostly bunk. Sorry but by that point, I don't have enough time to deal with shit like this and I would rather get on with finishing the game without the buggy event even if I have to delete an entire map.
How does debugging actually work?
author=Clyve
The thread was ruined when you created it.
At least it wasn't lame until you came. What? You couldn't find a modern meme to base your avatar on?
How does debugging actually work?
How does debugging actually work?
In case you're being sincere and not being a stealth troll, the thread was being ruined and the mods weren't doing anything about it. You really think any poster who has their help and request threads be hijacked is going to just shut up as they see these thugs push away the legitimate replies???
How does debugging actually work?
*Yawn* even more retardation. (A horribly drawn image that needs a button to be shown. Wow...a troll that haven't heard of captions to boot. Good god...how bad can the retardation go.)
Anyway whoever's modding this can lock this thread now. I'm bringing my questions to pm. No need to wait for me to bite the trollbait and justify locking this thread cause you didn't mod these guys and forced me to reply.
Anyway whoever's modding this can lock this thread now. I'm bringing my questions to pm. No need to wait for me to bite the trollbait and justify locking this thread cause you didn't mod these guys and forced me to reply.
Games - Tester
Games - Other
