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Ratty524
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CloseI wasn't being facetious at all in linking that Samurai Pizza Cats vid. That's one of those series I need to finish!
On One Piece... Yeah, it was a fuck-up, but I find the whole story behind why it's a fuck up so interesting.
Whoever was in charge of 4kid's research department was pretty much a lazy-ass. They basically saw "OMG ANIME ABOUT PIRATES KIDS WILL LOVE IT!!" and the show was picked up without a much-needed second thought. By the time it got to the editing rooms, they realized they were in deep shit, so they had to make the "best" of what they got.
By "best" I obviously mean completely botch the entire series, but it's almost at a "so bad, it's good" level of awfulness that I personally can't hate it. xD
Oh, and in regards to music, 4kids was doing that ost replacement shit with a lot of their international properties. Apparently they were too cheap to purchase the licenses to the original music, yet they apparently had all the money in the world to make localization edits that were mediocre, rushed jobs at best.
On One Piece... Yeah, it was a fuck-up, but I find the whole story behind why it's a fuck up so interesting.
Whoever was in charge of 4kid's research department was pretty much a lazy-ass. They basically saw "OMG ANIME ABOUT PIRATES KIDS WILL LOVE IT!!" and the show was picked up without a much-needed second thought. By the time it got to the editing rooms, they realized they were in deep shit, so they had to make the "best" of what they got.
By "best" I obviously mean completely botch the entire series, but it's almost at a "so bad, it's good" level of awfulness that I personally can't hate it. xD
Oh, and in regards to music, 4kids was doing that ost replacement shit with a lot of their international properties. Apparently they were too cheap to purchase the licenses to the original music, yet they apparently had all the money in the world to make localization edits that were mediocre, rushed jobs at best.
The biggest mess up I've ever see in regard to anime OPs is the English version of Candy Candy.
The Spanish version respects the melody but still changes the lyrics some, perhaps by necessity.
Check the original tho. Beautiful.
Getting serious for a moment here. I'm glad the discussion took this more casual and didactic turn. I hope we can all recognize that there's merit in both, adapting a source material to a new audience AND keeping it the same/as closest to the original as posible. So it's not that localization HAS TO BE THIS ONE THING only... Many people love watching anime with subs rather than dubbed for this very reason; many people hack or mod videogames for this very reason; so it's not like there's not a market for it. And I hope we start to see more of it. I think it's only fair to artists/developers that we experience their work as they originally envisioned it.
The Spanish version respects the melody but still changes the lyrics some, perhaps by necessity.
Check the original tho. Beautiful.
Getting serious for a moment here. I'm glad the discussion took this more casual and didactic turn. I hope we can all recognize that there's merit in both, adapting a source material to a new audience AND keeping it the same/as closest to the original as posible. So it's not that localization HAS TO BE THIS ONE THING only... Many people love watching anime with subs rather than dubbed for this very reason; many people hack or mod videogames for this very reason; so it's not like there's not a market for it. And I hope we start to see more of it. I think it's only fair to artists/developers that we experience their work as they originally envisioned it.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
4kids is for kids; it's showtime for the little ones to keep them mindlessly drooling at the television while the adults sleep in after a long week at work. I'm not sure that's what we were originally talking about, but whatever. We didn't start this conversation talking about how they changed Cloud's Buster Sword into a baguette for the French localization (or straight-up removed Aeris' death scene for Australia), but making things palpable for the target audience of another country's demographic.
The only localization/translation mishap I can really point to and find fault in is Exodus being translated into Exdeath and only being fixed in Final Fantasies Tactics Advance and XII. Would it have made more sense? Probably not given the obvious relation to the biblical story of the Exodus, but at least it would have been accurate.
Off-topic, but I find it rather interesting to learn that Hades was originally going to be the final boss of FF9 instead of Necron. I wonder why they changed that, given it's the one criticism of the game I can't dismiss away (unless it was a little nod to the previous Final Fantasies*, as was the nature of the game)?
* Under Necron's wikia page:
I suppose that'd make sense. The face appears rather feminine and I suppose the wings could represent the Cloud of Darkness' wispy tendrils, while the muscular torso and crossed arms would be more akin to Exdeath. So Necron was just a merging of the two (which is equally beautiful and disturbing), likely to tie up loose ends in the "great Final Fantasy reference checklist" they had to work with.
Also, holy shit, guys:
The only localization/translation mishap I can really point to and find fault in is Exodus being translated into Exdeath and only being fixed in Final Fantasies Tactics Advance and XII. Would it have made more sense? Probably not given the obvious relation to the biblical story of the Exodus, but at least it would have been accurate.
Off-topic, but I find it rather interesting to learn that Hades was originally going to be the final boss of FF9 instead of Necron. I wonder why they changed that, given it's the one criticism of the game I can't dismiss away (unless it was a little nod to the previous Final Fantasies*, as was the nature of the game)?
• Hades was originally planned to be the final boss, but was changed to an optional boss. The concept artwork at right of the final battlefield shows the party fighting Hades instead of Necron.
• There are eyes on the face of his sword and on his throne. Blinking disembodied eyes are also seen in the final battle arena, showing the connection between Hades and the original final battle. Incidentally, eyes are also a feature of many Terran structures, perhaps implying a deeper connection that was lost or severed in the final cut of the game.
* Under Necron's wikia page:
Necron shares a few similarities with Exdeath with both wanting to revert everything to nothingness. Their battle musics have similar musical motifs, and both are the same shade of blue and they share an attack name, Grand Cross. Necron also shares many similarities with the Cloud of Darkness, both of whom are the final bosses of their game revealed only at the climax, both are summoned by someone fearing his mortality, and both are created to revert the world back to nothing. Before fighting Necron Zidane's party members are also revived by the non-fighting playable characters similar to how the Warriors of Light were revived by Doga and Unei.
I suppose that'd make sense. The face appears rather feminine and I suppose the wings could represent the Cloud of Darkness' wispy tendrils, while the muscular torso and crossed arms would be more akin to Exdeath. So Necron was just a merging of the two (which is equally beautiful and disturbing), likely to tie up loose ends in the "great Final Fantasy reference checklist" they had to work with.
Also, holy shit, guys:
Um... they didn't remove Aeris's death scene in Australia. I can assure you of that. XD
Also, 4kids isn't for kids. Not really. For laziness, yes, but there's a huge difference between editing something to remove excess blood and guts and smoking and stuff like that, and actually destroying plot points for the sake of "don't feel like actually putting in effort lol".
You may notice I didn't point out the whole 'Sanji now sucks lollipops instead of smoking' or 'Smoker's cigars are missing' or even 'they removed the blood that was supposed to be coating Luffy so he could actually hit Crocodile' because it's understandable that those cuts would be made.
But idiotic shit like, oh, removing riceballs and replacing with cookies (and then keeping the line about 'ew you put sugar in these' in there) or editing out Luffy's wide grin to replace it with just a smile or getting rid of flintlock weapons and replacing them with water pistols (and then blowing stuff up with... water pistols??? ooh, and there's this one guy who's supposed to be one of the best snipers ever and they gave him a water gun like, no, for serious. they amp him up as really cool and suddenly he has a super soaker on his back. not even one of the cool ones.) or weird...hammer... things...
I mean, the scene with the gun I pointed out before? They still had her shot at that point... so why remove the gun at all? They could have edited it to be pointed not quite at her but nope.
And again - they cut out whole pieces of interactions with Ace and Laboon and removed parts of the Little Eden and Drum Island arcs for no reason - which led to a couple of big plot holes later on in the series. Kids ain't stupid. They notice this shit.
Yeah...
Also, 4kids isn't for kids. Not really. For laziness, yes, but there's a huge difference between editing something to remove excess blood and guts and smoking and stuff like that, and actually destroying plot points for the sake of "don't feel like actually putting in effort lol".
You may notice I didn't point out the whole 'Sanji now sucks lollipops instead of smoking' or 'Smoker's cigars are missing' or even 'they removed the blood that was supposed to be coating Luffy so he could actually hit Crocodile' because it's understandable that those cuts would be made.
But idiotic shit like, oh, removing riceballs and replacing with cookies (and then keeping the line about 'ew you put sugar in these' in there) or editing out Luffy's wide grin to replace it with just a smile or getting rid of flintlock weapons and replacing them with water pistols (and then blowing stuff up with... water pistols??? ooh, and there's this one guy who's supposed to be one of the best snipers ever and they gave him a water gun like, no, for serious. they amp him up as really cool and suddenly he has a super soaker on his back. not even one of the cool ones.) or weird...hammer... things...
I mean, the scene with the gun I pointed out before? They still had her shot at that point... so why remove the gun at all? They could have edited it to be pointed not quite at her but nope.
And again - they cut out whole pieces of interactions with Ace and Laboon and removed parts of the Little Eden and Drum Island arcs for no reason - which led to a couple of big plot holes later on in the series. Kids ain't stupid. They notice this shit.
Yeah...
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=Liberty
Um... they didn't remove Aeris's death scene in Australia. I can assure you of that. XD
I know, it was just a goof at the recent ordeal a few years back where they'd either not release a game in Australia or they had to severely cut out the violence, reducing zombie survival/war games to pop-gun fights with no blood and disappearing corpses.
they turned 80 episode cardcaptor sakura into 40 episode cardcaptors in an effort to make Syaoran look like the protagonist. that's kind of like buying strawberry pies and removing the strawberries from them in order to try to give someone a cupful of strawberries.
You could have just bought the strawberries you know. they'd be fresher.
Also I kinda think the american op of Candy Candy is cute. (at least it's not a rap song) but yeah the original >>
You could have just bought the strawberries you know. they'd be fresher.
Also I kinda think the american op of Candy Candy is cute. (at least it's not a rap song) but yeah the original >>
@Corf: Yeah, the reason 4kids is infamous isn't because they just cut out stuff that wouldn't fly by American cultural standards, everyone does that. They're that way because a lot of their edits came from the most asinine, obtuse reasons, and the effort was typically done in a shoddy manner that often lacked foresight, hence a LOT of their dubbed shows have plot holes and missing story arcs because an edit they made wound up ruining everything. As a result, even when taking their shows at face-value, disregarding that an "original" exists, almost every anime they touched became unwatchable brain cell-drainers that... Only a little kid with no expectations or an ability to pay attention to detail could sit through? Welp!
Here's an example:
Okay, I get that they wanted to make the series more approachable to a Western audience, but GOD they could have at least tried putting the effort in making it NOT look like an edit? Notice how the "cracker" changes resolution and drawing style in the Team Rocket bit, and the ugly, Adobe Flash tweened "sandwich" that can roll down a hill without falling apart, and notice how the size and perspective of the "sandwich" never changes to match the scene.
That's just one example of their sloppiness.
Here's an example:
Okay, I get that they wanted to make the series more approachable to a Western audience, but GOD they could have at least tried putting the effort in making it NOT look like an edit? Notice how the "cracker" changes resolution and drawing style in the Team Rocket bit, and the ugly, Adobe Flash tweened "sandwich" that can roll down a hill without falling apart, and notice how the size and perspective of the "sandwich" never changes to match the scene.
That's just one example of their sloppiness.
AHAHAHAHAHAHA THAT SANDWICH ROLLING AROUND OMGGGGGGGG AHAHAHAHAHHA
ALSO THE CRACKER IS ~3D~
WOW
JUST WOW
ALSO THE CRACKER IS ~3D~
WOW
JUST WOW
Kaliesto
583
Well. After reading this, I think I'll change my mind about localization. I didn't know it got that BAD. I think the only reason they even bother to bring anime to the west after seeing this because they're desperate for profit, and will do anything to get much of the demographic as possible, and that even means butchering a anime to do it.
I hope that stuff didn't actually go into the DVD collections.
I hope that stuff didn't actually go into the DVD collections.
I do have to admit that there are some great localisations out there, really. Funimation usually does pretty decent work and other companies like it that actually care about the anime they're editing do exist. It's just that certain companies tend to not give two riceballs about any sort of localisation and destroy anime for the Western audiences.
One Piece (it's a great example material, okay?!) is one of the most well-known and well-loved anime in Japan. It's absolutely HUGE - there's themed restaurants (no seriously, there's a replica of the Going Merry (ship) that is a restaurant) and stores (it has a dedicated store... just for the one anime/manga) and all kinds of amazing stuff. It was one of the Big Three - One Piece, Naruto and Bleach - the name given to the three anime that were absolutely wrecking the sales charts and constantly at the top (OP is still almost always on the top of that list, btw), and yet of the three, One Piece was the one people hadn't heard of.
Why?
Because 4kids destroyed its release to the non-Asiatic countries. It was done so horribly that the anime/manga that is constantly at the top of the charts over in Japan was never heard of over here. Seriously. That's the kind of impact a translation can have on something - the most popular and one of the best adventure stories to ever be told (in that particular media) became null and void because not even little kids liked the 4Kids version that much.
...thankfully subs exist and the internet is lousy with links, else I would have missed one of my favourite things in life. Yes. In Life.
One Piece (it's a great example material, okay?!) is one of the most well-known and well-loved anime in Japan. It's absolutely HUGE - there's themed restaurants (no seriously, there's a replica of the Going Merry (ship) that is a restaurant) and stores (it has a dedicated store... just for the one anime/manga) and all kinds of amazing stuff. It was one of the Big Three - One Piece, Naruto and Bleach - the name given to the three anime that were absolutely wrecking the sales charts and constantly at the top (OP is still almost always on the top of that list, btw), and yet of the three, One Piece was the one people hadn't heard of.
Why?
Because 4kids destroyed its release to the non-Asiatic countries. It was done so horribly that the anime/manga that is constantly at the top of the charts over in Japan was never heard of over here. Seriously. That's the kind of impact a translation can have on something - the most popular and one of the best adventure stories to ever be told (in that particular media) became null and void because not even little kids liked the 4Kids version that much.
...thankfully subs exist and the internet is lousy with links, else I would have missed one of my favourite things in life. Yes. In Life.
author=Kaliesto
Well. After reading this, I think I'll change my mind about localization. I didn't know it got that BAD. I think the only reason they even bother to bring anime to the west after seeing this because they're desperate for profit, and will do anything to get much of the demographic as possible, and that even means butchering a anime to do it.
I hope that stuff didn't actually go into the DVD collections.
It probably did, because that's probably all we got in the West, sadly.
And just an FYI, 4kids have long since gone bankrupt. Yes, they deserved no mourn for the loss, but at the same time many voice actors in New York suddenly lost their jobs.
I am glad I watched One Piece in German TV at a bearable quality.
These changes alone .. wow. No words.
These changes alone .. wow. No words.
Jeroen_Sol
Nothing reveals Humanity so well as the games it plays. A game of betrayal, where the most suspicious person is brutally murdered? How savage.
3885
author=Kaliesto
Well. After reading this, I think I'll change my mind about localization. I didn't know it got that BAD. I think the only reason they even bother to bring anime to the west after seeing this because they're desperate for profit, and will do anything to get much of the demographic as possible, and that even means butchering a anime to do it.
This kind of black and white thinking is way too common on the internet these days. Can't people realize that judging the many by the few is a composition fallacy, and just not okay?
Yes, some localizations are shit, 4Kids being a good example of that. SOME. Does this say anything about other localizations, or even localizations in general? No, of course not. I could cherry-pick examples of good localizations too, like the localization of the Ace Attorney video game series, but I won't claim they're representative of the quality of other localizations. We've seen they can indeed become pretty bad, after all.
TLDR: The world doesn't operate in extremes. There's such a colour as grey.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. Which is quite ironic in itself being said by a Jedi, as it's a very "us or them" mentality.
Kaliesto
583
4kids probably would have done better if they stuck with anime that was for that specific demographic. Stuff like Sonic, Digimon, etc.
Then again
I've read about 4kids editing. It seems even the most mild of shows were not safe lol.
Then again
I've read about 4kids editing. It seems even the most mild of shows were not safe lol.
If I was 4kids and given that sonic anime to localize I would've shoved it all on a fire and played reruns of Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog instead. Possibly edited to only show the good bits (anything involving Robotnik ♥ )
