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AN OFFICIAL *ENGLISH* VERSION OF 2K3 APPROACHES!
Posts
LordBlueRouge
2143
LordBlueRouge
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Close...Hi everyone,
I know a lot of you may not know me as I haven't been very active within this community or have even released a game.
But I just want to let you guys know that this is the opportunity, I think I've been waiting for ever since I first started using rpgmaker2003, 7 years ago: to finally be able to legally create and sell your own game in rpgmaker2003.
I've always wanted to do something like what David Gilbert has accomplished with WadgetEyeGames and his various releases with Adventure Game Studio (also, a 10 year old program) such as The Blackwell Legacy series and Gemini Rue.
...I'm not quite how everyone else feels about this idea. But this is an endeavour I've honestly wanted to pursue for quite some time now. I'd be willing to pay 100, 150, maybe even 200.00 dollars a piece, 400 even, just to finally be able to legally own and if possible, actually do business with this program.
I know everyone here probably has very good and very justifiable reasons for not supporting this petition or showing interest. But I also want you guys to know that by not signing this petition, by not showing interest, you're also putting someone at a very serious disadvantage here.
...I want to apologize, to anyone who happens to disagree with my situation. It's just that, rpgmaker2003, specifically, is something I've always been very sincere and very passionate about. Something I've always wanted to do incredible things with, things that will essentially become meaningless if this somehow doesn't go through.
So needless to say I'll be very upset about this; I don't know what else I can say to describe to you guys how important this is to me personally, to sign this petition… :(
...So if you can, please, please sign this petition.
I know a lot of you may not know me as I haven't been very active within this community or have even released a game.
But I just want to let you guys know that this is the opportunity, I think I've been waiting for ever since I first started using rpgmaker2003, 7 years ago: to finally be able to legally create and sell your own game in rpgmaker2003.
I've always wanted to do something like what David Gilbert has accomplished with WadgetEyeGames and his various releases with Adventure Game Studio (also, a 10 year old program) such as The Blackwell Legacy series and Gemini Rue.
...I'm not quite how everyone else feels about this idea. But this is an endeavour I've honestly wanted to pursue for quite some time now. I'd be willing to pay 100, 150, maybe even 200.00 dollars a piece, 400 even, just to finally be able to legally own and if possible, actually do business with this program.
I know everyone here probably has very good and very justifiable reasons for not supporting this petition or showing interest. But I also want you guys to know that by not signing this petition, by not showing interest, you're also putting someone at a very serious disadvantage here.
...I want to apologize, to anyone who happens to disagree with my situation. It's just that, rpgmaker2003, specifically, is something I've always been very sincere and very passionate about. Something I've always wanted to do incredible things with, things that will essentially become meaningless if this somehow doesn't go through.
So needless to say I'll be very upset about this; I don't know what else I can say to describe to you guys how important this is to me personally, to sign this petition… :(
...So if you can, please, please sign this petition.
author=HesufoJust going to say that this concept of "spending time on this RM or that RM" being thrown around has no actual relevance to the question being asked, which is "Would you buy RM2K3 if we released it in English?".
Part of the cost of spending time and resources on one thing is NOT spending them elsewhere, and this is the main point of many people here; why waste time translating a 10-year old software for old times' sake? It is much more efficient to release resource packs for the current maker.
To that initial query I answer yes, as I said above. Now, under the assumption that you have a legal English copy of RM2K3 for sale in front of you, would you buy it?
amerk
2539
From what I gathered on other forums, this would pretty much be the "out of the box" 2K3 package without many updates. It's even debatable on if they'll do any bug fixes.
$20 is not bad for beginners looking to go legit and don't want to spend Ace's $90 asking price, but for everybody else who has an illegal copy modified to work better with the patches and plug-ins, it just doesn't seem worth it. The music is pretty good, and the battlers, but the graphical side of the tile and character sets is pretty ugly. Try selling a commercial game for 2K3 using just the RTP.
As others have said, most of the games we see have rips, so buying this for legal / commercial selling purposes is mute, especially considering that you can't even use the patch and plug-ins that helped modify this (at least not legally and probably not for commercial), which to be honest doesn't make much sense since these patches and plug-ins appear to be an equivalent to what scripts do for XP, VX, and Ace.
$20 is not bad for beginners looking to go legit and don't want to spend Ace's $90 asking price, but for everybody else who has an illegal copy modified to work better with the patches and plug-ins, it just doesn't seem worth it. The music is pretty good, and the battlers, but the graphical side of the tile and character sets is pretty ugly. Try selling a commercial game for 2K3 using just the RTP.
As others have said, most of the games we see have rips, so buying this for legal / commercial selling purposes is mute, especially considering that you can't even use the patch and plug-ins that helped modify this (at least not legally and probably not for commercial), which to be honest doesn't make much sense since these patches and plug-ins appear to be an equivalent to what scripts do for XP, VX, and Ace.
facesforce
442
author=LockeZ
The overlap between people who care about RM2K3 and people who care about legality of their games is probably pretty close to 0%.
The ability to use the RTP resources in VX Ace would be nice for some people. But you can already do that with a Japanese RM2K3 license.
I am one of these people. Don Miguel originally brought us Rm2k and it was clearly not legal, but no one cared. It was one of the first times many people ever had acess to something that just carved a way. Hell, I hate to point this out but it is a very simple thing: Japanese Copyright laws are a joke. Hell, companies can't really shut down doujin circles, nor can you walk down a street in tokyo that does not have a manga for sale that most likely blantly rips off anouther series.
Many of the samller indie companies on the streets sell mirror games to big name titles, just with small edits or character replacement. (Puyo Pop anyone? Any Bullet Hell game from Cave, or Touhou?). I mean, there is literally not much precedent, or care that these companies care for older products, and RM2k, and its equal program RM2k3 are easily 12 to ten years old respectively. Besides that, Miguel's pirated translation has been out so long and has become so common that anyone could just use google to find it. The damage is done, and would it really be worthwhile to charge so many people, and a third of RMN's userbase with using a pirated tool, when it is near to impossible to buy a japanese Rpg maker Tsukuru 2003 (Note I said "near". If you own a physical, legit copy, all the more power to you!) I just don't see it as a worthwhile investment, for a company. However Enterbrain only seems to want to serve the fans, so if you do this petition and it gets a legit American version, all the much power to you. Just remember how many games, how many classics will be deemed illegal at that point, and probably incompatible with any possible upgrades to the software (I'm looking at you, Postality Knights XP!)
Now, with that said will I buy it if it becomes legal? Of course I would. I have bought every rpg maker program legit with the exception of Rpg Tsukuru 2000, Rpg Tsukuru 2003 and Rpg Sim Maker. I own the japanese copy of 95 even. If they did a limited "physical" release, I would buy it and be happy with it.
Will I sign this petition however? Of course not. It may be a free market, but like all things: Money wasted on a ten year old program is wasted when it could be working on future RM projects. Enough said.
Shinan
4314
author=LordBlueRouge
But I just want to let you guys know that this is the opportunity, I think I've been waiting for ever since I first started using rpgmaker2003, 7 years ago: to finally be able to legally create and sell your own game in rpgmaker2003.
...I'm not quite how everyone else feels about this idea. But this is an endeavour I've honestly wanted to pursue for quite some time now. I'd be willing to pay 100, 150, maybe even 200.00 dollars a piece, 400 even, just to finally be able to legally own and if possible, actually do business with this program.
I don't actually know how much hard work it is to convert a game (I'd think it'd be mostly mechanical, with all the resources and stuff already completed) but you can sell xp, vx and vxa games legally. And being newer programs I think the games made in those engines are more likely to work on contemporary computers. (not that I think rm2k/3 games have had any major compatibility issues) (and XP isn't very expensive, I just checked and it's only 30 dollars, that's a lot less than the 400 you're willing to spend! I'm sure you could spend the rest of the 400 on someone who could make you the scripts you need for a 1-to-1 conversion)
author=facesforceI can't understand where all the money in this is involved, honestly? The engine already exists and is simply in need of localisation (which, as we already know, can be accomplished through the efforts of a single person). I think the profit margin would be pretty decent if this were to go ahead; Enterbrain have more to gain then lose here.
Will I sign this petition however? Of course not. It may be a free market, but like all things: Money wasted on a ten year old program is wasted when it could be working on future RM projects. Enough said.
facesforce
442
author=Yellow Magicauthor=facesforceI can't understand where all the money in this is involved, honestly? The engine already exists and is simply in need of localisation (which, as we already know, can be accomplished through the efforts of a single person). I think the profit margin would be pretty decent if this were to go ahead; Enterbrain have more to gain then lose here.
Will I sign this petition however? Of course not. It may be a free market, but like all things: Money wasted on a ten year old program is wasted when it could be working on future RM projects. Enough said.
My friend, this world runs on money. My job runs on money, as well yours. So, let's say they do hire a man to do the job, change the wording and fix any programing flaws with RM2k3(The problems mentioned above).
They have to pay the man and then hope they can sell a copy. In my experience, people are not just willing to spend hours programming and fixing mistakes in software, as well as translating things, all just by being asked.
What I am saying is simple: The damage has been done to the point of no-return. Its basically like asking Nintendo to re-release the nes for collectors after the patent has expired. Okay, maybe not that extreme, but I still don't see how they have more to gain over focusing efforts on a software that requires to be a little modernized (Rm2k3 games, plus the engine itself does not have perfect compatibility on Win 7 for god's sake. I get strange errors all the time!)
Basically, I rather them re-write the engine from scratch and make it more fluid with the old graphics system, then for them to spend money on localizing something that everyone has already pirated for the last 10 years or so.
software that requires to be a little modernized (Rm2k3 games, plus the engine itself does not have perfect compatibility on Win 7 for god's sake. I get strange errors all the time!)
Both RM2K and RM2K3, as well as all their games, perform absolutely flawlessly on Windows 7 as far as I know. If you have any problems there it's most likely something on your end.
facesforce
442
author=KingArthur
Both RM2K and RM2K3, as well as all their games, perform absolutely flawlessly on Windows 7 as far as I know. If you have any problems there it's most likely something on your end.
Well, I have one of thouse Emachine E525 laptops, and well, yeah. It might just be that. No idea who builds a laptop this unbalanced. So, my hardware could be jerking it around a little bit.
Essenceblade
19
I would glady sign for this, as I still use RPG Maker 2003 to this day. Though all I ask is that they adjust the broken agility system, and add a few additional parameters to the maker, like they did in XP + (Pdef, Patk etc.) adjust a few spellling errors too.
Though they're pretty much off just adjusting 2k3 like they did with 2k. (Value!) If they made a 2k3 Value!, I think it would be way more than worth the money. 2k3 has been way more than a test project for many years that EB abandoned, but even an abandoned maker has some things many like. I like 2k3 mainly because it was my first maker, and I found it the easiest to adjust to. When I moved to XP / VX, I found the mapping limitations and various things they left out annoying, though they could be adjusted by scripts. It was just a hassle for me.
I prefer 2k3 because it feels more homely. So flame all you want, fact is, people will still sign it, people will still use it, people will still play its games. A few words from various people shouldn't be enough to completely neglect someone from a maker. Case closed.
But anyway, I'm still using 2k3 myself, but juggling Ace as a side project / remake of my 2k3 project. Still torn between moving my entire project and how far I've gotten over to Ace, or just statying in 2k3, finishing my project, then moving to Ace.
If EB really want to return to their abandoned project, then they need to spice it up. Alot. Like, 2k9+. I have to admit, if it wasn't for people who use RPG Maker 2003, going into the program themselves, editing and patching the actual maker. I probably would've moved to VX a long time ago. People took it upon themselves to turn an old thing into something worthwhile. Something EB should've adjusted WAY before they released it. It's just too bad its taken so long for this to happen.
So in the end of my case. If signing this, and paying for this maker, I ask that EB not only adjust the agility system, but many things that people had to implement themselves. Hell, even something like a mini RGSS system would be enough for RPG Maker 2k3 to stand on its own two feet again.
VX > VXa, 2k3 > 2k3a? low chance, but whatever.
Though they're pretty much off just adjusting 2k3 like they did with 2k. (Value!) If they made a 2k3 Value!, I think it would be way more than worth the money. 2k3 has been way more than a test project for many years that EB abandoned, but even an abandoned maker has some things many like. I like 2k3 mainly because it was my first maker, and I found it the easiest to adjust to. When I moved to XP / VX, I found the mapping limitations and various things they left out annoying, though they could be adjusted by scripts. It was just a hassle for me.
I prefer 2k3 because it feels more homely. So flame all you want, fact is, people will still sign it, people will still use it, people will still play its games. A few words from various people shouldn't be enough to completely neglect someone from a maker. Case closed.
But anyway, I'm still using 2k3 myself, but juggling Ace as a side project / remake of my 2k3 project. Still torn between moving my entire project and how far I've gotten over to Ace, or just statying in 2k3, finishing my project, then moving to Ace.
If EB really want to return to their abandoned project, then they need to spice it up. Alot. Like, 2k9+. I have to admit, if it wasn't for people who use RPG Maker 2003, going into the program themselves, editing and patching the actual maker. I probably would've moved to VX a long time ago. People took it upon themselves to turn an old thing into something worthwhile. Something EB should've adjusted WAY before they released it. It's just too bad its taken so long for this to happen.
So in the end of my case. If signing this, and paying for this maker, I ask that EB not only adjust the agility system, but many things that people had to implement themselves. Hell, even something like a mini RGSS system would be enough for RPG Maker 2k3 to stand on its own two feet again.
VX > VXa, 2k3 > 2k3a? low chance, but whatever.
I just hope the new company won't think of punishing/reporting me for heavily breaking the EULA/laws in the process of improving their dusty old software... Who knows... :-/
I don't think they will, Cherry. In fact, I think they don't mind if people use the patches, really.
Shinan
4314
author=Liberty
I don't think they will, Cherry. In fact, I think they don't mind if people use the patches, really.
Similarily to how they don't "mind" if people pirate it.
author=facesforceA single translator's wage would be comparable to a couple dozen licences, at worst....also, I have a feeling they wouldn't bother with 'bug' fixing if people are so eager to buy it the way it is.
My friend, this world runs on money. My job runs on money, as well yours. So, let's say they do hire a man to do the job, change the wording and fix any programing flaws with RM2k3(The problems mentioned above).
They have to pay the man and then hope they can sell a copy. In my experience, people are not just willing to spend hours programming and fixing mistakes in software, as well as translating things, all just by being asked.
Shinan brings up a good point, incidentally.
I meant to clarify that but I'm writing with a fever, so please, excuse me.
When I said, "They probably don't mind", I meant that they probably won't bother going after people who are using patches just for a game that won't see the light of monetary day, so to speak. It's like using rips. The game companies aren't going to go after the ones who are using them without intent to sell, are they. Same in this case. Especially for an older program. I hope that makes sense. >.<;
Of course they have to charge for the program itself or they'd be out and out saying "No, go ahead and use our code." That would ruin them straight out. But offering to sell the game - because it is a game, not software, something people keep forgetting - helps them in a few ways, and us.
It gives them a little extra profit to spend on upgrades for the newer programs.
It helps them create good-feeling in the community, which was lacking thanks to the bungled job that Protexus did. (For those not in the know, they were the publishers of the older RMs. It wasn't until XP the Degica became the new publisher - hence why the newer ones have been released to the English community at all.)
It makes you feel good about doing the right thing for a product that I know a lot of you have used and loved over the years.
It helps show the community that they can ask for things and they will be considered.
It allows you to use the RTP in any engine legally, as well as finish off that custom game you were making that time and gave up on because, hey what's the use if you can't sell it? (some people do think like this.)
I'm running low on thoughts here, as well as sleep, but I'll be back after some rest. Maybe I'll feel up to arguing a bit. A good argue is great for the soul, or so I hear~
When I said, "They probably don't mind", I meant that they probably won't bother going after people who are using patches just for a game that won't see the light of monetary day, so to speak. It's like using rips. The game companies aren't going to go after the ones who are using them without intent to sell, are they. Same in this case. Especially for an older program. I hope that makes sense. >.<;
Of course they have to charge for the program itself or they'd be out and out saying "No, go ahead and use our code." That would ruin them straight out. But offering to sell the game - because it is a game, not software, something people keep forgetting - helps them in a few ways, and us.
It gives them a little extra profit to spend on upgrades for the newer programs.
It helps them create good-feeling in the community, which was lacking thanks to the bungled job that Protexus did. (For those not in the know, they were the publishers of the older RMs. It wasn't until XP the Degica became the new publisher - hence why the newer ones have been released to the English community at all.)
It makes you feel good about doing the right thing for a product that I know a lot of you have used and loved over the years.
It helps show the community that they can ask for things and they will be considered.
It allows you to use the RTP in any engine legally, as well as finish off that custom game you were making that time and gave up on because, hey what's the use if you can't sell it? (some people do think like this.)
I'm running low on thoughts here, as well as sleep, but I'll be back after some rest. Maybe I'll feel up to arguing a bit. A good argue is great for the soul, or so I hear~
amerk
2539
author=Liberty
I don't think they will, Cherry. In fact, I think they don't mind if people use the patches, really.
That may be a dangerous precedent for them. If they don't care about breaking EULA laws for this, what's to stop people then from adding patches to later programs such as XP and VX? I'd be all over a plug-in for VX that fixed all of its problems.
And even if they don't care, why would somebody want to go through the works and spend money to give themselves a legal copy, only to turn around and break the EULA with patches and plug-ins and make their legal copy illegal all over again?
What EB should do is just allow people who purchase a legal copy to continue using the plugs and patches without considering it a break in the EULA. This way they can sell the maker to the Western audience without putting in much effort to fix it, people can use the plugs and patches to make the program work correctly and efficiently, and it would avoid a precedent of allowing people to break the EULA for newer makers.
Edit: I was typing this while Liberty posted her update. But that's more or less my thought. A person wants a legit copy for commercial use, they cannot use the plugs and patches. If they are okay with making their legal copy illegal with the plugs and patches, but not selling their game, EB probably won't care.
The plugins designed to fix all of VX's problems are called scripts. And people have done so.
I don't get why there is an argument here. It is not for us to dictate how EB/Degica spends their time (except by way of purchasing their wares). If they deem it worthwhile to translate 2k3, then that's free market at work. I don't think their resources are so finite that if they do an 2k3 translation that they won't ever be able to do anything else ever or not be able to work on other things at the same time!
I don't get why there is an argument here. It is not for us to dictate how EB/Degica spends their time (except by way of purchasing their wares). If they deem it worthwhile to translate 2k3, then that's free market at work. I don't think their resources are so finite that if they do an 2k3 translation that they won't ever be able to do anything else ever or not be able to work on other things at the same time!
amerk
2539
VX's scripts are not the same thing as plug-ins and patches. The scripts do enhance the program, but they are considered legal as they do not violate the EULA, whereas the patches and plug-ins for RM2K3 do. Again the quote for selling 2K3 to the Western audience (note the area in bold):
So by this, if you were to buy a legal version of RM2K3 you cannot use a plug-in or patch like you do now. No Cherry upgrades, no Goliath or David patches, no DynRPG. Furthermore, Degica's own staff stated they probably won't do much beyond translation and more than likely won't bother upgrading and fixing the flaws. So again, you're stuck with a broken (albeit legal) program without the patches and plug-ins that made it work more efficiently.
Will EB or Degica care that you break the EULA? My guess is they do to an extent, otherwise we'd have seen patches and plug-ins that alter VX in a similar way. I would have loved to have had a way of getting more unlimited tilesets added into the editor without the need for a third party script, but that's not possible without breaking the EULA. If you're not planning to sell your game, you probably won't have much to worry about, unless you place your game on the official site (ran by Degica) where they can easily see if you are using an illegal patch or plug-in and act upon it. But if you are trying to go commercial, do you really want to take the chance and use a plug or patch that breaks the EULA?
And what's the point? If you spend $20 for a legal copy of RM2K3 and then break the EULA by adding in plugs and patches, you are again back at square 1 with an illegal version of RM2K3. So why waste the $20?
My opinion still stands that if EB allowed the use of the current plugs and patches, more people would consider buying it. If you don't plan to upgrade with plugs and patches, spend the $20, if you want, or spend an extra $10 for XP. However, if you're going to turn around and put the plugs and patches right back in and break the EULA, you may as well save the $20 and continue using your pirated copies, because that's about what you'll end up with after breaking the EULA.
This suggestion was thrown into the table and so we have to ask, if we were to release RPG Maker 2003 in English would you buy it?
Vote and post your suggestions here~
Just a note, take the EULA into consideration. This means you guys shouldn't use patches/plug-ins/external programs if you want to use RPG Maker.
So by this, if you were to buy a legal version of RM2K3 you cannot use a plug-in or patch like you do now. No Cherry upgrades, no Goliath or David patches, no DynRPG. Furthermore, Degica's own staff stated they probably won't do much beyond translation and more than likely won't bother upgrading and fixing the flaws. So again, you're stuck with a broken (albeit legal) program without the patches and plug-ins that made it work more efficiently.
Will EB or Degica care that you break the EULA? My guess is they do to an extent, otherwise we'd have seen patches and plug-ins that alter VX in a similar way. I would have loved to have had a way of getting more unlimited tilesets added into the editor without the need for a third party script, but that's not possible without breaking the EULA. If you're not planning to sell your game, you probably won't have much to worry about, unless you place your game on the official site (ran by Degica) where they can easily see if you are using an illegal patch or plug-in and act upon it. But if you are trying to go commercial, do you really want to take the chance and use a plug or patch that breaks the EULA?
And what's the point? If you spend $20 for a legal copy of RM2K3 and then break the EULA by adding in plugs and patches, you are again back at square 1 with an illegal version of RM2K3. So why waste the $20?
My opinion still stands that if EB allowed the use of the current plugs and patches, more people would consider buying it. If you don't plan to upgrade with plugs and patches, spend the $20, if you want, or spend an extra $10 for XP. However, if you're going to turn around and put the plugs and patches right back in and break the EULA, you may as well save the $20 and continue using your pirated copies, because that's about what you'll end up with after breaking the EULA.
It's not a waste. It's like the people who use the tile swap crack for VX. It's illegal, yes, but at least you bought the program.
Are mods to games like Skyrim strictly legal? I don't think so. You have to look at the source codes to make the mods, right?
And you keep forgetting that it's not just the program you're buying, but the usage of the RTP. You aren't allowed to use the RTP of 2k, 2k3 and 95 in any other engines unless you've actually purchased the program in question. Sure, you can go and buy the Japanese version, but it's the same cost as an English version would be.
They can't allow the use of patches because that would be saying right out that their code was free to use, which would ruin them. I don't think they would mind so much if you used the patches though, since it is an old program, but not for sale. That's why I think Cherry'd be safe. He's not selling the patches or the works made with them. He's just fixing bugs. But Degica can't just allow people to use patches 'legally'. It's like all those cracked Zelda roms where people change things. They definitely aren't legal, but as long as the source code isn't being shared, the owners of Zelda aren't going to come after you with the law hammer.
Are mods to games like Skyrim strictly legal? I don't think so. You have to look at the source codes to make the mods, right?
And you keep forgetting that it's not just the program you're buying, but the usage of the RTP. You aren't allowed to use the RTP of 2k, 2k3 and 95 in any other engines unless you've actually purchased the program in question. Sure, you can go and buy the Japanese version, but it's the same cost as an English version would be.
They can't allow the use of patches because that would be saying right out that their code was free to use, which would ruin them. I don't think they would mind so much if you used the patches though, since it is an old program, but not for sale. That's why I think Cherry'd be safe. He's not selling the patches or the works made with them. He's just fixing bugs. But Degica can't just allow people to use patches 'legally'. It's like all those cracked Zelda roms where people change things. They definitely aren't legal, but as long as the source code isn't being shared, the owners of Zelda aren't going to come after you with the law hammer.
