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AVERTING LEVEL GRINDING
Posts
Killer Wolf
1235
Killer Wolf
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CloseI'm not a big fan of punishing the player for playing a game the way that they want to, but there is always the fallback of causing a ridiculously powerful monster to spawn once the player has spent too much time grinding in an area. Give them a warning along the lines of "The strong smell of all the beast blood you've spilled has drawn a deadly monster to the area, you either need to save your game right now or get the hell out of dodge."
Even in games where grinding is technically impossible, people will find a way. In KOTOR2:The Sith Lords, you can exploit a trick to spawn a ton of Hssis dragons in that one tomb and butcher them for a big exp jump.
There is no reason that enemies have to give you experience points at all. Award them for exploration and plot progression and just let the enemies drop gold EDIT-Or even better, things like hides, bones, meat, etc that can be SOLD for gold. Throw in a carry weight cap, and you make grinding that much less enticing). One of my biggest problems in games is the ridiculously skewed economics. If a game makes me spend 30000 for a pistol that costs 1200 MAX in real life, that is just stupid. Set reasonable prices and balance your gear properly, and you remove some of the incentive FOR cash grinding in the first place.
I know it would be a bit difficult to implement, but possibly, in place of XP from monsters, you could gain skills that are more useful against that type of monster. Add to a variable for each type (armored, flying, magic, fast, healer, etc) that you fight and give out skills accordingly. This way all a player gets for beating the same battle over and over is the ability to win the same battle a little easier. It gives the illusion of progression without unbalancing the rest of the experience. Naturally, it does help them when they face new enemies of the same type later, but as long as you introduce new twists in your encounters, you can prevent your planned progression from becoming obsolete after a six hour grind fest.
Even in games where grinding is technically impossible, people will find a way. In KOTOR2:The Sith Lords, you can exploit a trick to spawn a ton of Hssis dragons in that one tomb and butcher them for a big exp jump.
There is no reason that enemies have to give you experience points at all. Award them for exploration and plot progression and just let the enemies drop gold EDIT-Or even better, things like hides, bones, meat, etc that can be SOLD for gold. Throw in a carry weight cap, and you make grinding that much less enticing). One of my biggest problems in games is the ridiculously skewed economics. If a game makes me spend 30000 for a pistol that costs 1200 MAX in real life, that is just stupid. Set reasonable prices and balance your gear properly, and you remove some of the incentive FOR cash grinding in the first place.
I know it would be a bit difficult to implement, but possibly, in place of XP from monsters, you could gain skills that are more useful against that type of monster. Add to a variable for each type (armored, flying, magic, fast, healer, etc) that you fight and give out skills accordingly. This way all a player gets for beating the same battle over and over is the ability to win the same battle a little easier. It gives the illusion of progression without unbalancing the rest of the experience. Naturally, it does help them when they face new enemies of the same type later, but as long as you introduce new twists in your encounters, you can prevent your planned progression from becoming obsolete after a six hour grind fest.
I'm focusing more on a psychological approach to this using a harsh exponential experience curve that doubles the EXP requirement per level. Going from level five to six means getting all the experience it took to get to level five to get that one extra level. Repeat again for getting the next level up. The other critical step is to show the player EXP gains in the context of progress to the next level and what the particular EXP gain contributed. The goal is to indirectly tell the player that the next level is going to take a while to get (hey bro you just got a sweet 100 EXP, 4% of what you need to reach level 6 which needs another 2400 EXP) and have the player decide if they want to stop running in circles and move on or grind out those 25/50/100 battles to gain a few levels.
There's other factors used in Altima (linear stat growth and algorithms, low level cap that the player is expected to hit in the mid-late game) but this is the key component that I'm working with in my games.
There's other factors used in Altima (linear stat growth and algorithms, low level cap that the player is expected to hit in the mid-late game) but this is the key component that I'm working with in my games.
There's times in RPGs where I want to coast through a few sections of the game without having to stop and level at each new location. This is especially the case if there's some interesting plot events happening that I want to continue.
Preventing me from overleveling at one location doesn't allow me to do that.
Preventing me from overleveling at one location doesn't allow me to do that.
amerk
2539
author=GreatRedSpirit
I'm focusing more on a psychological approach to this using a harsh exponential experience curve that doubles the EXP requirement per level. Going from level five to six means getting all the experience it took to get to level five to get that one extra level.
Definitely an option worth looking into, especially for people who want to use random encounters (another subject entirely), but still limit the need for grinding. Each area can allow a few level increases at which point the EXP jumps so much it's not worth grinding for in that area any longer.
Only thing to consider on this is that enemies need to be tailored to specific areas. I can't count how many games where I'm still fighting Level 1 Slimes when I'm 3 dungeons in and should be fighting Level 7 Monsters. And you'd also need a way (eventing or scripting) to bypass the default EXP gains so you can make your customized "suddenly high" EXP jumps every few levels.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=Sauce
There's times in RPGs where I want to coast through a few sections of the gam
This means the game is boring you. This seems like a problem worth directly addressing by making it less boring, as opposed just giving you a way to not play it.
author=LockeZ
This means the game is boring you. This seems like a problem worth directly addressing by making it less boring, as opposed just giving you a way to not play it.
Not necessarily. Leveling is not 100% of an RPG. And "coasting" does not mean "speeding" as your reply seems to think I meant.
I don't want to be forced to stop and level up at every new location. Besides, doing the leveling in a previous dungeon and not at the next one cannot be considered "not playing the game."
author=amerkevicius
Only thing to consider on this is that enemies need to be tailored to specific areas. I can't count how many games where I'm still fighting Level 1 Slimes when I'm 3 dungeons in and should be fighting Level 7 Monsters. And you'd also need a way (eventing or scripting) to bypass the default EXP gains so you can make your customized "suddenly high" EXP jumps every few levels.
Setting your own EXP curve in VXP Ace is pretty simple! I'm at work so I can't produce the exact code but it pretty much comes down to:
class Game_Actor # Return the total EXP amount the player needs to reach level X def exp_for_next_level(level) if level == 0 return 0 # Linear exp curve return 100 + 50 * level # Exponential curve return 2 ** level * 10 # Custom defined exp curve case(level) when 1: return 10 when 2: return 25 when 3: return 30 return 9999 end end
The only problem with it is the lack of editor support. It's disappointing they didn't give more control over the exp curve in the editor so you can see all the calculated values without Excel. :(
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=Sauceauthor=LockeZNot necessarily. Leveling is not 100% of an RPG. And "coasting" does not mean "speeding" as your reply seems to think I meant.
This means the game is boring you. This seems like a problem worth directly addressing by making it less boring, as opposed just giving you a way to not play it.
I don't want to be forced to stop and level up at every new location. Besides, doing the leveling in a previous dungeon and not at the next one cannot be considered "not playing the game."
OK, yeah, that's fair, I misunderstood your post. I agree, I don't want to be forced to stop moving forward in the game. But I also don't want to skip past the central gameplay content, the bosses and the new battles that are directly in my path, if I'm having fun with the game.
author=kentona
ALL OF MY GAMES MUST EXHIBIT A CONSTANTLY INCREASING LEVEL OF EXCITEMENT
downtimes or variance is not allowed.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Is that... a response to me? Or to someone else? I hope it wasn't a response to me? Because I think there are some differences between constant rising action and preventing people from skipping parts of the game. The biggest difference being that the two ideas have nothing to do with each-other at all and aren't even correlated.
It was facetiously directed at you. I get the sense that you are demanding nothing but a string of highs from a game and if it isn't a high for you at a particular point it has failed in some way.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Well, no, that's not really how I feel at all. I admit I enjoy Contra games, but I also definitely get how peaks and valleys of action work. Nothing wrong with easier battles that build up to the big ones, or with cut scenes and exploration.
I don't think every fight in the game has to be the high point of the game. I do think every fight (and every part that's not a fight) should serve some kind of purpose, should help make the game more fun in some way; if you think giving the player some down time is the best thing to do at a given point in your game, then you're probably right. And finally, and this is basically my thesis in this topic: I do think that if you design your game with intent and you believe your game is fun, then it's stupid to condition the player to feel like skipping or trivializing parts of it is some kind of reward.
I don't think every fight in the game has to be the high point of the game. I do think every fight (and every part that's not a fight) should serve some kind of purpose, should help make the game more fun in some way; if you think giving the player some down time is the best thing to do at a given point in your game, then you're probably right. And finally, and this is basically my thesis in this topic: I do think that if you design your game with intent and you believe your game is fun, then it's stupid to condition the player to feel like skipping or trivializing parts of it is some kind of reward.
I've been taking on board everyone's suggestions and comments and the way I'm thinking of approaching this are thus:
Random battles give an amount of exp dependent on the player's difference in level with the enemy they killed. At significantly lower levels exp gain is significantly higher, and lower once the PC becomes a higher level than the monster to the point where they no longer give exp at all.
Enemies drop materials that can be used to craft equipment, but selling these materials is also the only source of money, so you have to choose between making some cash off of your loot or using it for better stuff.
Finally, bosses are "tuned" for a specific level which is what you're "expected" to be at when you fight them. However, fighting them at a significantly lower level than this causes some of the mechanics/abilities in the fight to be removed, and the boss's stats are lowered somewhat. Likewise, if you fight the boss at a significantly higher level, it gains extra mechanics/abilities (designed to make it quite a bit more challenging) and improved stats.
Just in case this isn't to everyone's taste, I'd probably also have an option you can set when beginning a new game to use either this system or a traditional system where the stats are balanced traditionally and it's possible to grind with no penalty.
Thoughts?
Random battles give an amount of exp dependent on the player's difference in level with the enemy they killed. At significantly lower levels exp gain is significantly higher, and lower once the PC becomes a higher level than the monster to the point where they no longer give exp at all.
Enemies drop materials that can be used to craft equipment, but selling these materials is also the only source of money, so you have to choose between making some cash off of your loot or using it for better stuff.
Finally, bosses are "tuned" for a specific level which is what you're "expected" to be at when you fight them. However, fighting them at a significantly lower level than this causes some of the mechanics/abilities in the fight to be removed, and the boss's stats are lowered somewhat. Likewise, if you fight the boss at a significantly higher level, it gains extra mechanics/abilities (designed to make it quite a bit more challenging) and improved stats.
Just in case this isn't to everyone's taste, I'd probably also have an option you can set when beginning a new game to use either this system or a traditional system where the stats are balanced traditionally and it's possible to grind with no penalty.
Thoughts?
Muninn
2233
author=Trihan
Finally, bosses are "tuned" for a specific level which is what you're "expected" to be at when you fight them. However, fighting them at a significantly lower level than this causes some of the mechanics/abilities in the fight to be removed, and the boss's stats are lowered somewhat. Likewise, if you fight the boss at a significantly higher level, it gains extra mechanics/abilities (designed to make it quite a bit more challenging) and improved stats.
If you do this, make sure that it's set such that bosses become stronger/weaker at a slower rate than the player. If they do so at a faster rate, you're punishing the player who does more, and if they do so at about an equal rate, there's really no point in having levels at all.
Personally, I'd leave that specific part of the system out entirely, but it's not a completely unworkable idea.
If I did do something like that I'd probably have some sort of tutorial or message to make it clear to players that if they choose to grind too much the bosses are going to be much more challenging to compensate.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=Muninn
If you do this, make sure that it's set such that bosses become stronger/weaker at a slower rate than the player. If they do so at a faster rate, you're punishing the player who does more, and if they do so at about an equal rate, there's really no point in having levels at all.
Actually. The idea of making it so levels don't make the game easier at all, just more interesting, is extremely attractive to me. The Dragon Age games do this to superb effect, for example. I'd definitely play it.
This is what I'm using for Santoo Rinba. Most of the battles are mini bosses. You normally cannot skip them, and they're not too punishing. After so is the normal boss. If you screw up on "hard" difficulty, and you'll probably get a gameover.
Normal trash mobs are touch encounters. You can skip all of them.
Grinding will, or should, make fighting bosses at low levels easier. And if one grinds on easy difficulty,
you'll probably find yourself one shotting bosses x-D
What I'm trying to do is give that option to skip out on hard fights early on. You cannot do this late game because you're level capped around the time you reach mid-game.
The cap is there because I like to rip off WoW's raiding scene. The only way to increase your power is through special equipment and stat increasing items which are only for hard mode players.
Normal trash mobs are touch encounters. You can skip all of them.
Grinding will, or should, make fighting bosses at low levels easier. And if one grinds on easy difficulty,
you'll probably find yourself one shotting bosses x-D
What I'm trying to do is give that option to skip out on hard fights early on. You cannot do this late game because you're level capped around the time you reach mid-game.
The cap is there because I like to rip off WoW's raiding scene. The only way to increase your power is through special equipment and stat increasing items which are only for hard mode players.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Level cap! Most games that expect you to reach them at all only do so at the very end. The nice thing about a level cap that shows up earlier is that it makes levelling up an option during the first part of the game - in other words, the game starts off easy and lets you "cheat" if you need to early on by being too high of level, but then later the game gets harder and the player loses that method of getting around the difficulty. Games should start off easier and get harder, right?
I could do a whole thread on level caps. Maybe I will.
I could do a whole thread on level caps. Maybe I will.
