HIGH POWER=LOW TIER?

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Why is it, from a gameplay and design perspective, the powerhouses of many RPG's tend to be at the bottom tier when it comes to actually being useful? You know what I'm talking about; the Tank, high HP, Power, Defense, but low Magic and Speed (sometimes), you know the deal. So why is it that these type of characters usually suck in RPG's? Here's some examples.

-Sabin from FF6 (Cyan and Umaro too)
-Kongol from Legend of Dragoon
-Rico from Xenogears
-Garr from Breath of Fire III
-Cray from Breath of Fire IV
-A lot of people in Suikoden

(and before you say "X person doesn't suck! How dare you!" I am very willing to back up every one of those examples, besides, it would be good for the discussion)

So why is it that tanks just don't seem to stack up in many RPG's? I love the Tank character archetype, and I want to get to the nitty gritty in its design flaws so we can see how we can improve it.
Because Mana/MP/Magic fuel became far too easy to replenish or the Max MP is far too high.

Spells (which are usually a better choice almost all the time) are uber-effective - usually more powerful, and able to hit multiple enemies, and are often the key to exploiting a monster's weakness. Your Tank, while not necessarily a bad character, just can't compete against the fireball-slingin' mage powerhouses with seemingly unlimited ammo.

If you want to see the brutes take center stage, play Dragon Warrior I-IV (and maybe the others, but IV was the last I played). The Soldier and the Fighter and Ragnar and Alena take center stage because they hit hard, their HP and DEF allow them to survive longer, and MP is just too precious to waste. (Alena from DQIV is arguably the best character in the game).

(And Sabin is good - his Blitzes are just like magic).
That's a good point, kentona.

(And Sabin is good - his Blitzes are just like magic).

You can very well wreck the game with Sabin, FF6 is built like that; but relative to other characters, well, he kinda sucks.
I think the ultimate example would be the boy from Secret of Mana. He has the most health, power, defense, everything but magic power out of everyone in SoM and he's the absolute worst character. Magic is usually grossly overpowered and far more versatile than the guy with the sword that can maybe exploit a weakness as Kentona already said.

Same thing can be applied to speed in some games. Guys who can get multiple attacks for the slow guy's one, hit more reliably, ect. Especially when it comes as general turns instead of combos, the speed makes the character far more versatile as they can do anything, not just attack.

Then there's games like FF1 where its cool to actually be the guy with the big sword because the big sword actually wrecks shit up faster, all the time, and you can take more hits than that flimsy black mage.

Really, the effectiveness of the heavy hitters varies by game and there really isn't some sweeping generalization that's always correct. The heavy hitter isn't as useful as he used to be since being big and strong isn't as cool nowadays, but there's still plenty of games where big sticks are better than flames of death.


And sometimes some characters just plain suck (Cyan, without the psycho-glitch)
I think the ultimate example would be the boy from Secret of Mana. He has the most health, power, defense, everything but magic power out of everyone in SoM and he's the absolute worst character. Magic is usually grossly overpowered and far more versatile than the guy with the sword that can maybe exploit a weakness as Kentona already said.

Definitely true, but then you have games like Breath of Fire III where magic sucks dick and Garr is still bottom tier (Peco, however is one of the best characters in the game), so how can we improve our tanks even considering the presence of magic?
It's an issue of growth rates, too. Dungeons and Dragons is a classic example. For the first five to ten levels, Fighters dominate. They have a huge selection of Feats, dish out plenty of damage and can take a lot of hits. But growth rates really change things up. By the late game, spellcasters outclass fighters by a ton. The basic explanation is that fighter growth rate is arithmetic while spellcaster growth is geometric. A spellcaster can't take more than a single hit in the beginning, but by the endgame, he's challenging gods.

Let's take a look at Sabin specifically here (and Kentona, I'm sorry, but this is where I show why you're wrong about Sabin). Sabin starts out pretty cool. He's got access to some free techniques that deal quite a lot of damage, including some that can hit every enemy. That's pretty sweet. Unfortunately, he has just about the worst equipment selection in the game, and just about nothing he can equip will up his magic stat....which is bad, because all of his techniques are based on his Magic stat, not to mention how utterly dominating Magic is in Final Fantasy 6.

Meanwhile, Relm (who has a nigh-useless special technique and whose stats aren't all that great in the beginning) has the best Magic stat in the game, and access to some freakin' sweet equipment for taking it even higher. A lot of people write off Relm as useless because they try to make tiers apply across the entire game, and in an RPG that's just ridiculous. Sabin is top-tier at....until you get out of the Magitek Factory. He just sinks lower and lower after that. Relm is mid-tier at best when she first joins, but becomes top-tier in no time flat.

There *are* some pretty awesome bruisers out there, though. It's just that most of the ones I can think of are in Tactical games, and only work well because you've got other units to back them up. Which is really what Tanks are *supposed* to do, though--they're supposed to be meat shields. To that end, you've got characters like Mog and Gau, who can easily hit the Defense cap and become almost untouchable in FF6 because of their awesome equipment. Give 'em Phoenix Downs or Life2, and they'll keep your party alive no matter what gets thrown at you.
Give the tanks some abilities other than 'smack things'. Garr is a great example of what they shouldn't have. He has fire magic, but his magic stat is so piss poor even enemies weak to fire would take more damage from his regular hit. Give them some buffs (attack+), debuffs (defense/evasion-), something to get enemies to attack them instead of the flimsy mage dude. And weapons that have elemental properties. When every weapon does 'physical' damage (which nobody is ever weak to) and mages can get an easy x2 damage by exploiting any weakness...
Also being able to change weapons midbattle would help too so the heavy hitters don't get stuck with the weapon whose element the enemy absorbs.

Also I have no idea what Peco can do since I never used him. Does he have simply better stats than Garr or what? (on topic, think of it as comparing a good and a bad heavy hitter in the same game)
Also I have no idea what Peco can do since I never used him. Does he have simply better stats than Garr or what? (on topic, think of it as comparing a good and a bad heavy hitter in the same game)

Peco is absolutely insane.

-He starts at Level 1, so he would get full benefit from Masters such as Fahl, shooting his Defense up (and he's easy to level)
-His HP and AP (which is MP) are incredible. He easily breaks 200 HP and AP while everyone else barely has 100. He'll have about 500 HP by the end of the game. His high AP makes him able to use heavy hitting physical skills like Super Combo and Aura over and over again
-His Defense is nuts too, even considering his Armor is very limited. Highest in the game by far.
-His Reprisal (Counter) rate is about 50%, so if you put him in a formation where he would be hit a lot, he'll not only be absorbing a lot of hits, but he would be countering at least half of them.
-His high Max HP make his breath attacks incredibly powerful.
-He has high power too.

A lot of people just use Peco as a skill doll or neglect him entirely, and it's a damn shame.
harmonic
It's like toothpicks against a tank
4142
Because people don't design fights around endurance, but rather, who can dish out the most damage in the first turn and wipe everything out. Especially in rm2k3. The AGI stat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the DEF stat if you do it the default way.
I think another reason is that many Tanks in RPG's simply cannot withstand Magic to any degree. Rico, Kongol, and many tanks in Suikoden have such low Magic Defense that they're almost useless, Kongol in particular is weak as shit; one magic spell and he's down for the count.

I think a good example of an excellent tank was Georg Prime from Suikoden II and V. He was incredible, having some of the highest HP, Power, and Defense in the game. On top of that, his Speed as incredible and he blocked almost every hit, and he was fast enough to hit several enemies in one turn. He had his weaknesses, low Magic and especially low Magic Defense, but he was still a very good character.
I believe the problem stems from the overpowering of magic. Can anyone list a game without magic that has a sucky tank? I'd be interested. Usually in those types they're screwed due to low speed, as without high damage magic it becomes more important. Versatility has a lot to do with it.

The one exception I can think of would be Fire Emblem where there are plenty of wimpy mage characters who can't take a hit, as well as high-tier tanks such as Boyd and Nasir from FE9. Boyd has higher speed, though incredibly poor defense, but Nasir's lack of speed is made up for in every single other stat. Maybe it's because of how that game handled magic... Then again, there are a lot of terrible slow tanks characters, such as Largo and Mordecai. Maybe not an exception.

Or maybe people always side with the smaller guy, in the David vs Goliath scenario.
I believe the problem stems from the overpowering of magic. Can anyone list a game without magic that has a sucky tank? I'd be interested.

Like I said before, magic sucks in Breath of Fire III and Garr is still bottom of the barrel (next to Nina).
harmonic
It's like toothpicks against a tank
4142
Fire Emblem 9 and 10 make speed the best attribute by a long shot. You can 2x and sometimes 4x an enemy who is slower. Strength and equipment weight also affects that.

Usually mages have low strength and sometimes high weight on their tomes, so they hardly ever double cast, whereas a lot of melee characters will be double-hitting powerhouses.

It's all how games are balanced.
I like the article so far but

In FF6, when everything else is leveled out, Sabin is a high-tier character and Relm is a low-tier.

Both Sabin and Relm can use any spell they want, from Fire to Life 3. However, you get Sabin much earlier - by the time Relm becomes available, Sabin'll likely already know several spells and Relm will have to catch up. Sabin beats Relm in specific skillsets too - Blitz is simply a better command than Sketch or Control (and that's assuming Sketch/Control works). Even after all that, Sabin is undoubtedly a better fighter than Relm. Sabin has an equipment configuration that allows him eight attacks per round with well over 1000 damage per attack - and that's without excessive powerleveling. Relm can never hope to match that.

This is just bullshit.

Eh. I just finished reading it and it was alright. He didn't really offer any solutions to existing issues, though. For example;

How often do you honestly use any of those status ailment spells against the opposition? Yeah, me too.

Final Fantasy X, anyone? Where status effects can mean the difference between life and death?
I read it a long time ago, but Bricky's just wrong in this one on several fronts. The FF6 one is a major one. I didn't comment when I read it months ago because it seemed like splitting hairs about an otherwise good article. But yeah, his take on FF6 is just wrong. The only character-ability that makes any difference in FF6 after about the midway point is Morph. "1000 damage per attack with eight attacks per round" is crap considering even without an economizer or powerlevelling, Relm can be doing dual-9999 damage attacks each round with very little consideration for MP (using Osmose every once and a while, maybe), often to every enemy. And this is not Ultima, I'm talking about, Relm can easily pull it off with the level three elemental spells. Sabin can output maybe a little more than 10,000 damage per turn split amongst every enemy (with no ability to target), Relm can easily do 19,998 damage per enemy, for about 40 MP total.

Meanwhile, thanks to Sabin's equipment choices, he can't raise any of his stats that matter to a signficant degree other than through Esper-spamming (his Magic is always in the crapper, so not only does he suck at Magic, which is a cardinal sin in FF6, but his Blitzes become less and less impressive, for example). And I'd count Esper-spamming as powerlevelling anyway. As for fighting...ven his most powerful claws are pretty awful compared to the selection for Sword users, so he sort of sucks as an attacker, too. And he's nowhere near as good a tank as Mog or Gau because he can't wear the Snow Muffler. You can totally use him to beat the game (it's not that difficult), but he's far from top-tier.
I guess Relm probably overshadows Sabin if you grind a lot, but if you're a speedrunner like me, Sabin is pretty much the no.1 essential damage dealing machine.

It really depends on how you play.
I think a lot of the problem stems from "tiering" in the first place. There will ALWAYS be a mathematically superior advantage from one person to another; one piece of equipment to another, unless you have a clean-slate stat board that the player can build themselves, and in that case every character is identical. That's the balance: character differentiation on one end of the scale, and tiering on the other.

Think about how you want your battle mechanics to work. You'll notice that one of the basics of FF is that you can customize most players. FF6 was great because each player has unique abilities. Unfortunately, they also have different stat tables and equipment choices, thus you get tiers. At what point do we sacrifice character personality, history, even the game's plot so that your characters can be placed into tiers?

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with pushing out as much as you can from a char. For people like Brick, and it sounds like many of you, that's what makes a game fun, and allows you to challenge yourself by running through the game at lower levels by using skill and strategy. I guess that I'm saying there should optimally be a threshold when a game's players are tiered: if a character is so low that (s)he's considered statistically useless, then that's bad balancing. If a character might not be a first choice in a particular battle, but is good enough to still be used because the player "likes" that character, or has fun skills, then that's good game design, in my opinion. Sabin falls in this category. He has great skills to stemart with, which cost nothing. If the game didn't facilitate the ability to keep on hand a full stock of ethers, and magic consumption actually had to be considered, he'd remain a top-tier character. But for me, he's just plain cool; I always like monk-type characters, and he hit hard. That's what kept him in my party.

I found my solution from WoW. Specialization trees might sound like a blatant rip off of a Blizzard classic system, but I think it's a great solution to allow each of the characters that you enjoyed creating to be useful. What I had envisioned is to have 2 or 3 "sets" of skills that can easily be toggled, like mini class-changes. These would be uniquely divided amongst your characters, for instance some would have tanking skillsets that are meant to defend in different ways (physical defense, elemental defense, and those are just a couple of many examples). When that character is not needed as a tank, they may have a damage-dealing spec that still allows them to be useful. Changing this could be as simple as going into the menu and hitting a button, or more complicated in terms of skill-learning and re-learning systems. The rest is up to the designer to balance these out.
I don't know guys I think tank characters in games are stupid and I hope they go away. It's really boring to have a character whose main feature is that his one skill (a basic attack) is extremely effective and can take a lot of damage. This is *only* cool in games with AI companions where your AI companion is the guy soaking up damage (you don't have to worry about controlling a boring character). But don't you think it's a little dull in the original three Dragon Quest games where the hero melee character is basically as effective as everyone else put together, hacking away with his basic attack all day?

Later Dragon Quest games make this much more interesting with a variety of weapon types - boomerangs that hit all enemies, whips that hit only a group of enemies, weapons with other special properties. This gives you more options and makes it more fun to play. Note that all of these weapons have lower attack power in exchange for their benefits, compromising the character's role as a tank.

I really don't know why anyone likes Tank characters outside of MMORPGs where they manage aggro and are key members of a group and probably have some special abilities anyway (MONK KICK).
author=brandonabley link=topic=1189.msg17835#msg17835 date=1211855918
I don't know guys I think tank characters in games are stupid and I hope they go away. It's really boring to have a character whose main feature is that his one skill (a basic attack) is extremely effective and can take a lot of damage. This is *only* cool in games with AI companions where your AI companion is the guy soaking up damage (you don't have to worry about controlling a boring character). But don't you think it's a little dull in the original three Dragon Quest games where the hero melee character is basically as effective as everyone else put together, hacking away with his basic attack all day?

Later Dragon Quest games make this much more interesting with a variety of weapon types - boomerangs that hit all enemies, whips that hit only a group of enemies, weapons with other special properties. This gives you more options and makes it more fun to play. Note that all of these weapons have lower attack power in exchange for their benefits, compromising the character's role as a tank.

I really don't know why anyone likes Tank characters outside of MMORPGs where they manage aggro and are key members of a group and probably have some special abilities anyway (MONK KICK).

What tanks are you playing as? Even games with bad tanks don't have what you're describing.

I guess Relm probably overshadows Sabin if you grind a lot, but if you're a speedrunner like me, Sabin is pretty much the no.1 essential damage dealing machine.

It really depends on how you play.

Relm overshadows Sabin from the getgo, dude.
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