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Posts
trance2
500
trance2
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Closeauthor=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=1189.msg17836#msg17836 date=1211856794It might just be the way I'm playing, but Relm has never been better than Sabin in my game. I get along just fine with Terra, Sabin, Mog, and Gogo. Amazingly fine, actually. Everything's a breeze till I hit Kefka's Tower and I have to split everyone up. And the team with Strago, Relm, Shadow, and Gau gets their butts handed to them, while the Sabin team creams everything.
Relm overshadows Sabin from the getgo, dude.
Again, as said before (at least, from what I've read), the tiers all depend on your play style. Let's take, for example, the tiers in Super Smash Bros. Melee. For the longest time, Falco was on the lower-mid tier, iirc. But then some guy runs through a tournament playing as him and kills everyone. Now, suddenly, Falco's top tier. Obviously, some characters will never be as good (looking at you, Pichu), but especially when it comes to RPGs, it all depends on play style. Magic may be broken in FF6, but you can just as easily murder it with a balanced party with strong Magic users and strong physical attackers (of which Sabin is one for me, regardless of his shitty equipment).
maladroithim
1495
author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=1189.msg17836#msg17836 date=1211856794
What tanks are you playing as? Even games with bad tanks don't have what you're describing.
I GAVE YOU THREE EXAMPLES GOD
Erave
1444
Tanks are fine with me, as long as you can boost their speed/strength in battle. If you give them some light curing spells or something else they gain a bit of an edge, but I don't mind characters that just dish high damage.
The ability to take damage was extremely valuable for heavily armored classes in .... OF ALL GAMES A REALLY REALLY OLD ONE... final fantasy 1. RPGmaker retardedly doesn't have that feature. No matter how you configure the party, everyone has an equal chance at a direct attack.
Yes yes I know you can script/CBS out of that but meh.
Yes yes I know you can script/CBS out of that but meh.
Shadowtext
120
By the way, a quick terminology lesson:
"Tank" generally refers not to your primary attacker, but to the character with high Defense and/or HP. They're armored, like a Tank. They are generally slow and useless for anything but being meat shields. A lot of you seem to be confusing them with your primary physical attacker, who is often going to be character with well-rounded stats that put them into top or second tier.
In Fire Emblem terms, your Tank is your General, not your Lord or Paladins. In Pokemon terms, it's your Blissey or Rhyperior.
Sometimes Tanks have decent attack: this is generally because the game designers didn't know what else to do with the character. They need to have some sort of action to take during battles, but their role is mostly to act as a wall.
If you want good tanks, you need to focus on abilities that make them keep enemy attention, recover their own HP, take damage for allies, that sort of thing. Like I said when discussing Mog and Gau with the Snow Muffler: maybe give them some revival abilities so they can keep the whole party alive. Their job is not to hurt the enemies, it's to keep the enemies from hurting your Nukes, Strikers, Healers, whatever, who are often Squishy.
"Tank" generally refers not to your primary attacker, but to the character with high Defense and/or HP. They're armored, like a Tank. They are generally slow and useless for anything but being meat shields. A lot of you seem to be confusing them with your primary physical attacker, who is often going to be character with well-rounded stats that put them into top or second tier.
In Fire Emblem terms, your Tank is your General, not your Lord or Paladins. In Pokemon terms, it's your Blissey or Rhyperior.
Sometimes Tanks have decent attack: this is generally because the game designers didn't know what else to do with the character. They need to have some sort of action to take during battles, but their role is mostly to act as a wall.
If you want good tanks, you need to focus on abilities that make them keep enemy attention, recover their own HP, take damage for allies, that sort of thing. Like I said when discussing Mog and Gau with the Snow Muffler: maybe give them some revival abilities so they can keep the whole party alive. Their job is not to hurt the enemies, it's to keep the enemies from hurting your Nukes, Strikers, Healers, whatever, who are often Squishy.
Shadowtext does have a point. In the purest form of the term "tank" Sabin is really not a tank. There isn't a pure tank in FF6 to be honest. Closest thing would be Cyan, or Celes, or maybe Edgar. But all three of them can indeed dish out big damage or even heal.
demondestiny
889
I mainly agree with what Kentona said posts and posts and posts back. But games such as dragon quest and some of the final fantasy games did this really well especially FFXII. You could buff up your tank with just about everything and it still wouldn't make the battle that much easier.
Neok
3602
Relm overshadows Sabin from the getgo, dude.
OBJECTION: Relm takes a pile of preparations to make better than Sabin, and can still die pretty easily unless you outfit her with some good gear. In comparison, Sabin gets a lot of hard-hitting freebie techniques quickly and easily, doesn't need god-like equipment to kick ass and has enough HP and def to hold his own against anything.
Sabin > Relm
Sabin really is an amazing character if you're doing a "speed run." With just a little bit of TLC, most characters, especially terra or celes, become godly in that game. But for extremely basic, pure runs, absolutely no grinding, Sabin is the man.
But again he's really not a tank :P He's a melee damage dealer.
Terra/Celes/Edgar/Cyan equipped with heavy armor and the "true knight" are tanks.
But again he's really not a tank :P He's a melee damage dealer.
Terra/Celes/Edgar/Cyan equipped with heavy armor and the "true knight" are tanks.
Whenever I play FF6, Edgar keeps the Knight's Code or Honor or whatever it is on from South Figaro to Kefka's Tower. That said, tiers mean absolutely nothing to me since I force classes onto my characters. Sabin was my White Mage in my first FF6 play.
EDIT: Oh and I want an RPG where there is a character with no actions except DEFEND.
EDIT: Oh and I want an RPG where there is a character with no actions except DEFEND.
Neok
3602
Man, comparing Sabin to Relm is like comparing a fighter to a black mage. Obviously the black mage is going to get all the really awesome stuff. But who's gonna make sure that black mage survives long enough to get that awesome stuff? Ain't gonna be anyone but the fighter.
There should be a character like this, that gets "Kill everything, even the final boss" as their lvl 99 spell that only they can get. Then people can argue how that character's top tier because at lvl 99 he/she owns everything in one turn.
EDIT: Oh and I want an RPG where there is a character with no actions except DEFEND.
There should be a character like this, that gets "Kill everything, even the final boss" as their lvl 99 spell that only they can get. Then people can argue how that character's top tier because at lvl 99 he/she owns everything in one turn.
Given how the damage algorithms work in FF6, with sufficient time (aka levels) anybody could spam 9999 damage despite their stats. I think character level contributes more to damage than any other single stat (but don't quote me on this)
maladroithim
1495
author=Neok link=topic=1189.msg17908#msg17908 date=1211913226
There should be a character like this, that gets "Kill everything, even the final boss" as their lvl 99 spell that only they can get. Then people can argue how that character's top tier because at lvl 99 he/she owns everything in one turn.
In every Dragon Quest game with character classes (3, 6, 7), there is a Jester class who very rarely ever does what you tell him to (usually opting to tell a joke). However, getting the Jester class to a very high level is key to unlocking the most powerful abilities in the game (3: Sage class, 6 and 7: Teen Idol class with the almighty Hustle ability). So that's kind of similar.
Shadowtext
120
author=Neok link=topic=1189.msg17908#msg17908 date=1211913226If this were any game but Final Fantasy 6, you'd probably be right. But this is not a game where mages are squishy, nor does attacking offer any real benefit to make up for how much less damage it deals than magic, nor is MP enough of a commodity to make dedicated fighters even slightly relevant once you get access to Espers.
Man, comparing Sabin to Relm is like comparing a fighter to a black mage. Obviously the black mage is going to get all the really awesome stuff. But who's gonna make sure that black mage survives long enough to get that awesome stuff? Ain't gonna be anyone but the fighter.
author=Sir Craze the Unhinged link=topic=1189.msg17900#msg17900 date=1211907421
EDIT: Oh and I want an RPG where there is a character with no actions except DEFEND.
Earthbound: the various Teddy Bears. They just skip a step and you don't actually have to tell it to defend, since it doesn't have any other choice.
trance2
500
author=Shadowtext link=topic=1189.msg17855#msg17855 date=1211866804I beg to differ. :o Stone Edge with STAB and Earthquake FTW. Then again, Rock Head kind of does make it a bit of a tank. It's much more of a damage dealer, though, than Blissey or, dare I say it, Curselax. This isn't a Pogeyman thread, though, so I'm not going to spam too much with that.
In Pokemon terms, it's your Blissey or Rhyperior.
Though, I will say that there are some games, not necessarily RPGs, where this equation applies. Ganondorf, for instance, is one of the strongest characters in the game: every hit of his has the effect of a Smash attack. However, because of his slow speed and the way his attacks work, he's lower-mid to bottom tier, iirc (I can never be quite sure on the SSBM rankings; it's been a year or so). I wouldn't necessarily call him a "tank," but he certainly has high power.
Shadowtext
120
author=trance2 link=topic=1189.msg17962#msg17962 date=1211928965Rhyperior is noted as borderline broken specifically because he fills too many roles well. He's a sweeper AND a wall, and that's why we hates him. At least when he belongs to the opponent...author=Shadowtext link=topic=1189.msg17855#msg17855 date=1211866804I beg to differ. :o Stone Edge with STAB and Earthquake FTW. Then again, Rock Head kind of does make it a bit of a tank. It's much more of a damage dealer, though, than Blissey or, dare I say it, Curselax. This isn't a Pogeyman thread, though, so I'm not going to spam too much with that.
In Pokemon terms, it's your Blissey or Rhyperior.
Though, I will say that there are some games, not necessarily RPGs, where this equation applies. Ganondorf, for instance, is one of the strongest characters in the game: every hit of his has the effect of a Smash attack. However, because of his slow speed and the way his attacks work, he's lower-mid to bottom tier, iirc (I can never be quite sure on the SSBM rankings; it's been a year or so). I wouldn't necessarily call him a "tank," but he certainly has high power.
...point is, a tank can multiclass as other things, but what makes a tank a tank is his unkillability. Technically a character with high evasion could probably count if you just can't damn-well kill them. Of all people, in Super Robot Wars: Original Generation one of my best "tanks" (in the sense of drawing opponent fire and never taking any damage) was Latooni in a jet or a Real. No, she may not have high defense or HP (depending what she's in), but she fills exactly the same role as a really effective tank....low HP actually makes her more effective, since everyone attacks her then.
Terin
13
In my opinion, the only way magic is ever useful is as an enhancement. Augments and enchantments are the only use of it (aside from healing). After playing Breath of Fire 3 and Final Fantasy 12 back to back, I've lost faith in magic as anything useful.
FF12: Equip a character with a Katana. End of story. The only way magic was ever useful was to buff characters and heal each other. There were some battles where the enemy couldn't be damaged by weapons, so I'd have to throw spells -- but they hit so much weaker than they ever should have, even after getting every boost on the License Grid. Also, the summons in this game just sucked... I remember trying to call them out a few times and was just beyond disappointed.
BoF3: Just what everyone else said -- magic is weak. The only time it can be useful is about midway through the game when you have to hit things with elementals, and you have a group-spell. Other than that, it sucks. HOWEVER, I was really happy with the Ability system. Just how you could stack things (which I didn't realize). It was nice to Focus with Ryu 2-3 times and then smack someone with Aura. Also, Peco is awesome because you can control him, and also because of who he actually is.
FF6 isn't bad -- but it suffers from the same issue as FF7 -- all characters can become awesome fairly easily. In the end with relics and equipment, everyone is pretty much the same. Everyone casts Ultima. Get a relic that drops MP usage to 1 (I forget the name of it). Ultima is 1 MP. Cast it half a dozen times. Dead. Or, even better, pumping up HP with Bahamut or someone and then using Atma Weapon. Atma Weapon + Another Atma Weapon + Offering + Genji Glove == Anyone in the game dead. It was so amusing actually doing that -- I had Locke in one of the games end up just killing Kefka in one shot. No challenge.
Magic needs to be something that everyone can have, like CT. And then, it should be expensive. Everyone thinks Summons are the big thins -- but I think they ruined the formula. Summons became the new magic, where they were limited and used rarely. That's how magic should be, in my humble opinion. I remember in Chrono Trigger, Crono would get Luminaire and it would do a LOT of damage to everything. But it cost something like 20 MP I think? Which was like 1/3 or 1/4 of your MP -- so use it a few times and that's it, but it hits hard! Somewhere in the neighborhood of 3-4x what he would hit at (for one attack -- if he did 2 attacks which is common with the Rainbow Katana, it would only obviously be like 2x as strong -- but it hit EVERYONE)
Magic needs to seriously be overhauled in most games these days...
FF12: Equip a character with a Katana. End of story. The only way magic was ever useful was to buff characters and heal each other. There were some battles where the enemy couldn't be damaged by weapons, so I'd have to throw spells -- but they hit so much weaker than they ever should have, even after getting every boost on the License Grid. Also, the summons in this game just sucked... I remember trying to call them out a few times and was just beyond disappointed.
BoF3: Just what everyone else said -- magic is weak. The only time it can be useful is about midway through the game when you have to hit things with elementals, and you have a group-spell. Other than that, it sucks. HOWEVER, I was really happy with the Ability system. Just how you could stack things (which I didn't realize). It was nice to Focus with Ryu 2-3 times and then smack someone with Aura. Also, Peco is awesome because you can control him, and also because of who he actually is.
FF6 isn't bad -- but it suffers from the same issue as FF7 -- all characters can become awesome fairly easily. In the end with relics and equipment, everyone is pretty much the same. Everyone casts Ultima. Get a relic that drops MP usage to 1 (I forget the name of it). Ultima is 1 MP. Cast it half a dozen times. Dead. Or, even better, pumping up HP with Bahamut or someone and then using Atma Weapon. Atma Weapon + Another Atma Weapon + Offering + Genji Glove == Anyone in the game dead. It was so amusing actually doing that -- I had Locke in one of the games end up just killing Kefka in one shot. No challenge.
Magic needs to be something that everyone can have, like CT. And then, it should be expensive. Everyone thinks Summons are the big thins -- but I think they ruined the formula. Summons became the new magic, where they were limited and used rarely. That's how magic should be, in my humble opinion. I remember in Chrono Trigger, Crono would get Luminaire and it would do a LOT of damage to everything. But it cost something like 20 MP I think? Which was like 1/3 or 1/4 of your MP -- so use it a few times and that's it, but it hits hard! Somewhere in the neighborhood of 3-4x what he would hit at (for one attack -- if he did 2 attacks which is common with the Rainbow Katana, it would only obviously be like 2x as strong -- but it hit EVERYONE)
Magic needs to seriously be overhauled in most games these days...
author=Terin link=topic=1189.msg18053#msg18053 date=1211992844
stuff
I agree with most everything in this post.
FF6 magic was insane. Attacks were insane! Too easy!
It was done pretty well in CT. I still didn't like how there was zero customization (aside from choosing which party to use most of the time... meh)
