THE EMO WARDROBE

lol @ emo angst and inner torment.

emos like the surrealized and amplified life of a teenager. It makes me laugh because they take themselves so seriously.

It's cool to be depressed.

riddiculous sub-cultures are one thing, but emos/fashicores/what ever,are not even that , even though some seem to take pride in being in one.

It's trendy to "lul im so sad plx cut myself and listin tu saed mussk".

Ha, ha! I never understood why "emo" guys often wear womens jeans, that alone should be considered self harm.

author=Lord Kenton Pendragon the Forsaken link=topic=1221.msg18270#msg18270 date=1212096939
They suffer from wangst (I just pulled a Shadowtext).

TVTROPES! Good place to kill time.

Emo is not cool. No one is going to take you seriously unless you act and dress like a respectable person. So comb your hair out of your face and put on MAN's pants and how about some shoes you can work in that aren't made of wicker or corduroy?

author=The Honourable Baron Blitzen, Defender of the Faith link=topic=1221.msg18303#msg18303 date=1212118099
Emo is not cool. No one is going to take you seriously unless you act and dress like a respectable person. So comb your hair out of your face and put on MAN's pants and how about some shoes you can work in that aren't made of wicker or corduroy?

Sorry. I have to cut in here. Essentially you're suggesting that respectability is based on appearance. And that image of professionalism comes from traditional society. Sure, you'll be respected by some. The older people. They'll croak in twenty years anyway. And the bosses. Maybe it's good to be respected by the bosses. They'll hire you, yeah, but then they won't show you any respect. And it's not like they're your peers to hang out with. They're too busy trying to look respectable for their supervisor anyway.

And then what about the other part of society? You know, your friends, class-mates, co-workers (in an environment without dress regulations), the younger generations? You know, the part that's going to actually shape the future (you too)?
Any kid who went to a public high school probably knows what would happen if they showed up in a suit. And I've seen various incarnations of such situations- such kids are ostracized. It doesn't work, not with that half.

Then it's a matter of opinion from there. Here's my take on it though- either you kiss ass to the higher ups who you resent anyway, and in turn isolate yourself from your peers, (some say that leads to success, but that's not true. Want to go there? That's a different topic altogether.) or you can -not- be cast out for being some plastic ideal of the upper class. Ellen Kay put that well, raise the children by the society, it works for appearance, and they'll be "successful". To quote her poem, Pathedy of Manners,
"They had an ideal marriage, and ideal,
But lonely children in an ideal house."

Emos. You see someone in gothic dress, you assume their emo. But you also assume, they're not a square. They might be enjoyable to interact with. Impressions are based on appearance, not personality. Then you see the kid going to third period in a navy blazer with a brief-case, and that kid? No one takes him seriously. I know him. And I know the three people that occasionally hang out with him. And I can speak for at least two of them, when I say we don't consider him a friend.
He may be smart. He is. He's the youngest kid in the school. He works hard too. Straight A's. Does anyone respect him? No. Does anyone take him seriously? No.

"No one is going to take you seriously unless you act and dress like a respectable person." Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Or in this case, respectability. Know your audience. Do you follow this? If you're someone who chooses the half that abides by these manners, then I'm sorry for you. But what do I know? I'm just a sophomore in high school, right? And after all, I don't dress respectably.


More on topic, I find myself having an increasing respect for the Gothic (not emo) culture. I've actually come to appreciate their style a lot (speaking of dress), and also their art and stories. Music is hit or miss depending on who you talk to. And they find beauty in the sublime, in darkness, sorrow, the night... All things I'm finding more and more alluring.

That's Gothic, however. Not emo.

Emo took Gothic, and turned it inside out, based on its appearances, yeah, black is sorrowful, big woop. Pain pain pain, oh my.
The goal of emo is not to create drama, and it's not to make anything more interesting, or fit in.
No, the goal of emo is to attract pity, and they've become pretty good at it. Slitting wrists is a big pity magnet. Once that becomes just another instance of crying wolf -regardless of whether they do it or not- then they move on to suicide. And they ~kind of~ attempt it a couple times. Then people are sad, and are moved, etc. And the emos get some high off of this. How do I know this? Several of my close associates (only one of them I consider a friend, the others just whine to me a lot) are very very much this way, only, sans the gothic style. The goth style is just to cry out. It's labeling themselves then as emo, for others. It tries to let them know, "I am someone you should pay attention to, and pity, because I am sad." That's all they use Gothic style for. How a person dresses is no indication of their emotional state without the stereotype. Hence its popularity.
It's not cool to be depressed, and slitting wrists doesn't make you fit in. But as a stereotype and group, it attracts like minded people who are sensitive to the unspoken needs of each other. It is just for pity, attention. And sadly, it works.

author=Tau Furlough the Wayfarer link=topic=1221.msg18324#msg18324 date=1212134080
I don't get emos, I saw a couple of them shopping in a chicks clothes store checking out girls jeans? ??? fucken emos haha.

We get them a lot at my work and boy can they eat. ;D

author=Lord Kenton Pendragon the Forsaken link=topic=1221.msg18357#msg18357 date=1212158974
One day you will be 'the Man' and you will realize how offbase you were (and what a loser you were) in highschool. If you can't "be yourself" without adopting some prescribe persona and associated dresscode then you haven't figured it out yet.

And the only difference between that and the formal dress respected by the 'important people' is that one you're supposed to wear, and the other- snobby people look down on you for it. Do you think businesses want people to be themselves? No, they don't. Must I explain that? They want robots. They want automated people who will roll in the mud and then piss on each other if they were asked to.

You know, this whole 'being yourself' thing assumes that that's not really how you are. Okay, it's one thing to do it because you think it's 'cool'. However sociologically, people define themselves through groups. That's human nature, and there's no fighting it. Yeah, there will always be peer pressure, yeah, some will always give in. That doesn't mean that's what everyone does. That's probably the most incorrect assumption people have about teenagers these days. Some people- that actually is themselves.

As for someday being the man? You don't know that, and not everyone will. Hell, 70% of the kids at my school will be bus drivers. Most of them will probably get shot or die of overdosing first. Yeah, my school's ghetto. But that's a different story. We don't all have one prescribed future. The social pattern is moving away from preferring the typical white collar office job. No, I don't know what will happen, but it's not going to be the same as the last few generations.

And if you are so shallow that you have to dress a certain way AND have no respect for someone else if they dress a different way, then you are worse than these 'old people' whom you resent (for no apparent reason other than that they understand more than you do) - it's a very strong indication that you have very little character.

Oh, don't get me wrong. It's not that I have no respect for them because of how they dress. It's that I have very little respect for them because of the assumptions I make based on their clothing (only at first (after all that is the initial impression)), their behavior, speech, etc. Clothing is just another indication of who they are.

These old people who I resent for no apparent reason? There are reasons, but they don't need to be fully explored here. That, also, would be best suited to an entirely different thread. Like I said before, you play to your peers, or you play to the upper class. Which is more important is a matter of opinion.

And little character? That's just another judgment on your part, is it not? I have little character that you respect, sure. But even bad character is character. Unless you're a motionless doll or robot, it's kinda hard to not have character. A statement like that is waste of words, I reckon.

No one of any import will take you seriously until you grow up and out of that small mindset.

And once more, importance is a matter of opinion.

When you grow up you realize that you don't have to dress like a freakshow to get attention.

lolwut? Yeah, I know. I think they all know too. That just happens to be the route the choose. It's a social signal. You don't like it, but that doesn't mean it's -invalid- or anything. It works.

I like your assumptions about how the adult world works, too. Yes, we are all just autonomous robots acting out the will of our mighty upperclass overlords. That's exactly it.

Of course, I know there are exceptions. But currently? Most people are trapped by the system. They need money to live. Job gives them money. Boss gives them job. Most people don't see an alternative.
Do I think you're robots? No. Do I think business would prefer you be 100% efficient, never stopping to rest, talk, eat, etc, and never complaining or making any mistakes? Yes, of course they would. But that can't happen, and that's why there aren't robots working everywhere (yet...).

Dressing like a freak is inherantly counter-productive in the greater society.

There are a few problems with this bit here. Firstly, is that 'freak' is a matter of opinion.
Secondly, and much more importantly, if you're going to bring up the issue of productivity, we may be here a while, because that's going to get us into a whole mess of politics (being, how should we live?)- and thereby, what is productive? Productive according to who? If 'greater society' doesn't have one goal that we can be productive towards, how can we be counter productive?
Most people don't know why they're living. Many consider their job only semi-productive- In the sense that it gives them enough monkey to keep living a while longer. Does it help them with their personal goals? Maybe if it's a job they really like, at first, it does. But not for long.
We can't agree on what is 'right' or what we should work towards, so these are things are people should decide for themselves. That's what I believe, anyway.
If someone else decides it, who decides who decides. And that'll just spiral upwards into chaos. Does that make any sense?
Lastly, exactly how is that 'inherently counter-productive'? Is it because it's distracting? Is it because it means the people dressed like that are going to spontaneously go off and cut themselves, disturbing whatever's going on? Hell, someone could go nude, and still be as 'productive' as someone wearing jeans and a t-shirt.

Who knows, maybe part of that spike collar could come in handy if someone needs a thumb tack.


You play by society's rules and everybody is better off. Social conformity is an advantageous group evolutionary trait.

Aaaaand you just crossed the threshold. Let's go.

"Social Conformity is an advantageous group evolutionary trait."
It would be better if everybody functioned identically.
How far are you going to take that? Where's the line of cut-off, where you say, "Okay. Stop. We're similar enough."
Or is there one? Would it be best if we were clones of each other?

We could use the same medicine for everyone
We have all the data on everyone perfectly
We know each other's though patterns.
Hell, we could figure out Nature vs Nurture.
We know all of our limits.
It would be great, if we were all exactly alike.

Plus we don't have these 'freakshows' running around, right?

Wait, wait, wait, do you REALLY think you would enjoy everyone being the same? If the world was under your almighty sway right now, would you snap your fingers and make that happen? Let's have six-billion Kentons running around. Or whoever- you pick someone. See how that works out.

I can tell you. It doesn't work out well. I don't feel the need to get into the specifics, but if you prefer it, I may. It will not be friendly. It will not turn out too differently from the world today. Some Kentons will be poor. Some Kentons will be rich. Some will starve, some will grow fat. It's a zero-sum game, that's just a principle of the nature of the world.

Yeah, except you killed diversity. What food do you like? Let's say you like waffles. Well, suddenly there's going to be a HUGE spike in the price of waffles. Let's say you can't stand dairy products, well milk's just going to sit there and be 2 cents a gallon.
Economy goes wacko, because the supply and demand for everything are distorted to one individual need.
Give it a few years, it balances out. All dairy product production things have been transfered to waffle-making. But pretty soon, you might run out of batter, I mean, six million Kentons that all prefer waffles? There's going to be some strain there.

Socially... Oh dear (I'd rather not even get into personal relationships). Everybody thinks and looks just like Kenton. Just like eachother. Socially, that's going to be incredibly boring.
"So did you hear, the price of waffles has gone up again."
"Yeah, I did hear. That sucks."
"Yep"
"..."
"..."
You need diversity in both economics and social interaction. Otherwise, it just doesn't work.

This discussion here, for instance is born of the major differences in our views of the world. If there wasn't anything to discuss, because we don't have differences of opinions, this forum wouldn't need to exist. Neither would a lot of things. Obsolete~

But there, I said it, the key word. And it's come up before. Opinion. We need opinions. Robots don't have opinions. And when everybody thinks just like each other, that opinion becomes some sort of fact. When everybody thinks just like each other, opinions die out.

Opinions and the differences of them, different viewpoints, experiences, etc, are what make for growth and discussion. "I think God exists" "Yeah, so do I." "Same."
Is considerably less productive (in terms of social interaction and growth of relationships) than "I think God exists" "No, he's definitely not real." "But what about.............?"

Perhaps we should have opinions, but shouldn't be allowed to express them anyway but verbally? But what good does that do? The world is then still locked in a state of monotony and stagnancy.

Opinions lead to disagreements and differences and all that other "counter-productive" stuff, yeah. But they will also change the world for the better, and be "productive".
If everyone was the same, and conformed, opinions would die out.

This is, of course an extreme case.

"Social conformity is an advantageous group evolutionary trait."
Social Conformity- This refers to the collective population as a group becoming a unanimous division of units. Conformity- the same- Unanimity. And in unanimity, there is no difference of opinion.
Advantageous- As I have already said, we as a whole have yet to decide on what is "right" or how we should live, so we cannot yet define productivity. Similarly, we should ask, "advantageous for what purpose?" What purpose? Same as the productivity question.
Of course, when we all think the same way, then we might agree on how to live. Hmm... Let's test that. So, Kenton(s), how should we live? Why not outline the best way to live right now? Everyone thinks just like you, so what you say is automatically agreed upon by all.
But how do you know it's "right"? There is no other voice to tell you it might not be the best.
Group Evolutionary Trait- With its place in this statement, this contradicts itself. Traits and such things evolve in a group just as they do in an individual. This concept is called Social Darwinism. You've probably heard of it. Then you know of Natural Selection, survival of the fittest, yes? That is evolution's moving force to weed out the inferior.
When everyone is the same, there is no inferior, however, so you just murdered Natural Selection, thereby capping your potential at its current limit. Until you become different, you will be again, stuck in stagnancy. There will be no development, so you better be damn sure you got -how to live- right the first time. Savvy?

It might be "advantageous" up to a point, but when a diverse society can keep evolving, it would someday surpass your unanimous one.

Well, is that a big enough wall of text? This is getting interesting, let's keep this up.
Epic battle begin; your move.

I love Emos, those little guys running around getting into all sorts of mischief, thinking their lives are tough. I'll love to see one live in a 3rd world country for a week. Haha, i'm sure they'll do a reality TV show on that one day.

author=Lord Kenton Pendragon the Forsaken link=topic=1221.msg18390#msg18390 date=1212176977
One, the death of diversity is not a plauisble scenario. You are also confusing genetic diversity with social diversity. (If everyone were socially identical or even near identical, we will still need different medicines, we would have different thought patterns, etc...). This may be a nice thought experiment, but it's groundless.

We don't know too much for sure about Nature vs Nurture, so for though pattern thing, that may or may not have anything to do with generic diversity. That doesn't really matter here, though, so~
The thought patterns/medicine comments were based on the idea that there are just about six million of you running around- clones or what not. I'm well aware that's ridiculous, but many hypothetical situations are.

Two, emo is just the latest of teenage social trends that will die out when the next generation takes hold. There's a reason why you don't see packs of greasers and preps and jocks running around in adult society.

Not quite sure what the point of this is. I'm not saying that emos are going to like start a massive revolution. I'm saying the generation as a whole is beginning to move away from the past patterns.

Four, people will make assumptions about you based on how you present yourself. That, too, is human nature. Furthermore, people will make judgements and may even make decisions about your future - why tilt yourself toward a disadvantageous position? Why would you willinging put yourself at this disadvantage? To make a "statement"? No one's listening, because the real world will bring you into line (or crush you).
Lastly, people also take note of how you DO put yourself into a disadvantageous situation, and that counts against you, too. Presentation matters, no matter what wishful thinking says.

Four, people will make assumptions based on how you present yourself. That, too, is human nature. Furthermore, people will make judgments and may even make decisions about your quality as a person- why tilt yourself toward a disadvantageous social position? Why would you willingly isolate yourself from your peers? To do some brown-nosing? No one cares, because you are surrounded by your peers, not the real world, and they will either treat you like a normal person, or reject you.
And that is, as well, human nature.
Lastly, people also take note of how you DO tell people what you think they want to hear, and that counts against you, too. Integrity matters, no matter what ego-flattery does.

One thing older people don't seem to realize is how to respect emotions. Actually Kenton, you're like 22? That's still young. But you're doing the same thing. Essentially the message you're sending out is "it doesn't matter if you're lonely, it doesn't matter if everyone hates you, just do your job." That's not something that I can personally stand behind at all.

Yes, people work to make money, because we need to eat and have shelter. You really don't have a choice in that matter. Jobs are a means to an end, and that end, boiled down and pruned, is existence.

And that's exactly what I mean when I say society has us trapped. Some personality types are not suited to such things. I am one of them. Given, such a type is only 1% of the population, 1% of the population of every such system is still a hell of a lot.

Social conformity IS advantageous for group survival, but by taking it to these absurb extremes you attempt to make that seem a great folly. Nice straw man.

But I asked you then- where do we draw the line?

You want an outline on the best way to live? Study a religion. Religion has co-opted many of humanities desireable traits (and several undesirable traits too, but that's neither here nor there). Religion is a damn effective social invention for social conformity and effective way to help the survival of the society at large.

A religion often has codified an ideal way to live, usually surrounding evolved human traits such as compassion, reciprocal altruism, kin love, and mutual support, while discouraging destructive and unproductive behaviors like in-group violence, freeloading, and selfishness. Study a religion and you'll be studying a microcosm of humanity.

And so where have those religions gotten us today? *looking around* I do not believe for one second that this is the best way to live. Religion isn't bad, I'm sure. But it's not the definite answer. Or not yet, anyway.

And by challenging me to assert what is the "right way to live", you hope to debunk my assertion, and then assume that therefore "any way is the right way, because there is no 'right'. So being emo is okay". Yeesh. You honestly expect me to reduce the entire motivational structure of humanity into an easily dimissed blurb?

No, I honestly expected you to be unable to answer. And so far, that appears to be so.

There is a gerenally advantageous way to live: contribute positively to society.

See, you've only switched out terms here. Advantageous- to positively. What is positive? What is good? These are questions for which we don't have answers.

There are enough people living this "right way" to support a large host of freeloaders - people who coast on the wealth of society. So we can support shitloads of your precious "diverse" social mini-groups. But the existance of goths isn't improving my standard of living. However, the existence of worker drones making a new, I don't know, eletronic public health record, is.

So you're perfectly content with the way of the world as is? And you then give no considerations to the worker drones. To the kids in china. To the toiling Mexicans picking our fruit. You were born into a position that you could get where you are. They weren't so lucky. Just what are they supposed to do about it? Or do we just sacrifice them?
Then who decides who gets sacrificed? Chance? A person in power? And why are they in power?
And we have that same spiral of power.

So I ask you: "What is the right way to live?" And you better get it right the first time, capiche?

Sorry, I don't have an answer either. I can tell you what's not the best way, and that's this.
But I've said this before, I'm sure. I'm an anarchist. And an idealist. Those are two things that don't fit well together, I'm sure. I know it doesn't work.
But I can't stand be trapped. Some of us are just screwed from birth, and the system -our set of fictional rules to play by- holds us there.