PLEASE HELP ME SOLVE A MYSTERY!
Posts
I invoke Crocker's Rules.
First, I wish to say that I do not intend this post as a cheap way to plug my game. If you don't believe me on this, we won't be able to communicate effectively from here on, so there's probably not much point in you reading on.
I was looking back at how my (completed) game was doing recently, and I decided to filter my game in various ways to see how it had gone down with the RPG Maker community, overall (I released it about 9 months ago).
It turns out, it's not doing very well. In terms of downloads, it ranks:
Now, obviously I think that my game is in about the top 10% in terms of quality (as everyone does). So I am wondering why you - my fellow RPG community member - think that it has such a low number of downloads. I don't mean this as an exercise in vanity. It's just that I intend to make more games in the future, and I would prefer not to get myself into this situation again. So I'm asking for your help to figure out what the underlying problems are.
Tell me whatever you like. However, I would prefer that you didn't just say 'your game is crap' unless you have played it (how would you know it's crap?). I would rather you say 'your game looks like it would be crap' (though this in itself isn't very helpful).
The game is here: http://rpgmaker.net/games/4263/
Please tell me. Why do you think my game gets so few downloads? Remember, Crocker's Rules. Say whatever you like to me. I'm not going to snap at you.
First, I wish to say that I do not intend this post as a cheap way to plug my game. If you don't believe me on this, we won't be able to communicate effectively from here on, so there's probably not much point in you reading on.
I was looking back at how my (completed) game was doing recently, and I decided to filter my game in various ways to see how it had gone down with the RPG Maker community, overall (I released it about 9 months ago).
It turns out, it's not doing very well. In terms of downloads, it ranks:
- 430th / 810 (below average) for the filter 'All completed games'
- 119th / 140 (bottom 20%) for the filter 'Completed games rated 4 or more'
- 20th / 21 (second last!) for the filter 'Completed VX games rated 4 or more'
Now, obviously I think that my game is in about the top 10% in terms of quality (as everyone does). So I am wondering why you - my fellow RPG community member - think that it has such a low number of downloads. I don't mean this as an exercise in vanity. It's just that I intend to make more games in the future, and I would prefer not to get myself into this situation again. So I'm asking for your help to figure out what the underlying problems are.
Tell me whatever you like. However, I would prefer that you didn't just say 'your game is crap' unless you have played it (how would you know it's crap?). I would rather you say 'your game looks like it would be crap' (though this in itself isn't very helpful).
The game is here: http://rpgmaker.net/games/4263/
Please tell me. Why do you think my game gets so few downloads? Remember, Crocker's Rules. Say whatever you like to me. I'm not going to snap at you.
Well, for one, this could have been a blog post. For two, game plugs aren't allowed. You could, however, edit it to aim it more towards a general 'why don't certain games get more coverage' and/or 'how do you advertise your game better' topic.
Please do that.
But to answer your question as to why? Here's a few thoughts after checking your game page:
- Comments talk about bug issues. I mean, your last one says you fixed a bug but when your first comment is about having virus issues due to your game, you have a small problem. It might be worth it to add a line that stands out in the description area that all virus and/or bugs are fixed.
- The presentation is balls. Well, not balls exactly but it's not interesting either. Kentona recently released some CSS in the CSS article (found in the article section, of course) that you can use on your page to spruce it up a bit. Of course, editing it yourself to make it look like you want and fit with the theme of the game is a good idea too.
- Your logo isn't all that inspiring... a branch. Wow. Screams 'Top Quality game' doesn't it? You could whip up something better than that or at least ask someone else to. That's part of what the help forums are for. Or even a request blog (do that instead. It shows up in the help forum anyway.)
- Advertising elsewhere. Most games on the site that have a lot of downloads have been advertised in other forums. Since you're using VX you could advertise in quite a few places - RMWeb.com, RMVX.com, FaceBook, your own personal blog, Tumblr
- Your description doesn't really drum up any interest in the story and as it's an RPG (Action-type) a story would be appreciated. I mean, even Zelda has a story. You basically just tell us there's characters and a story but don't let us know what that is. Is it a save the world quest? A quest for redemption? Something quirky like following a rabbit down a hole or something interesting like, IDK, following a baby being protected during a war and seeing how that child is unknowingly involved in political plots and such? Or maybe just following some guy on his journey to find his father?
Who knows? You're not telling us. All I know about your game is it's supposed to be short, Homage sounds like it might be a parody or, well, homage to another game and that it involves some stick. Maybe.
- Show only the best. Your mapping is decent for the most part (some maps are bare as balls) but it's not much more than 'generic forest, generic town, generic...'. Sad as it is to say, people aren't going to consider your game in the top percentage if it doesn't have something that jumps out at them. Look at the top percentage of games on this site and compare. Yours is sadly lacking in that one thing - heart.
It doesn't help that you're not showing off anything exciting. Hell, look at the current top buzzing games. One of them - Reincarnation - is gorgeous. Just look at it. Now compare your own.
Yes, your skills might not be up to Nessy's and Hirei's but you should at least show off the best of what you have if you want to drum up more traffic.
Lastly, no. People don't consider their games the best out there (unless they've completely lost the plot or big-noting themselves or have ego issues). I know I don't. I might be proud of a few of my ones but when matched against others I know they aren't the be-all end-all.
That you bring that attitude about your game here is insulting to all those who have worked hard on their games and have just as good, if not better, looking/playing games that you. Don't think you've made the best thing ever. If your game isn't drawing people after all of this it probably wasn't as good as you thought it was. I'M NOT SAYING IT'S TERRIBLE AND A WASTE, just not as good as you seem to think.
The thing you should be aiming for is more reviews, not more downloads. Reviews will let you know what you need to change, what you need to add and what you did well. Then pick yourself up and tell yourself this:
"Next time I'll do better."
Please do that.
But to answer your question as to why? Here's a few thoughts after checking your game page:
- Comments talk about bug issues. I mean, your last one says you fixed a bug but when your first comment is about having virus issues due to your game, you have a small problem. It might be worth it to add a line that stands out in the description area that all virus and/or bugs are fixed.
- The presentation is balls. Well, not balls exactly but it's not interesting either. Kentona recently released some CSS in the CSS article (found in the article section, of course) that you can use on your page to spruce it up a bit. Of course, editing it yourself to make it look like you want and fit with the theme of the game is a good idea too.
- Your logo isn't all that inspiring... a branch. Wow. Screams 'Top Quality game' doesn't it? You could whip up something better than that or at least ask someone else to. That's part of what the help forums are for. Or even a request blog (do that instead. It shows up in the help forum anyway.)
- Advertising elsewhere. Most games on the site that have a lot of downloads have been advertised in other forums. Since you're using VX you could advertise in quite a few places - RMWeb.com, RMVX.com, FaceBook, your own personal blog, Tumblr
- Your description doesn't really drum up any interest in the story and as it's an RPG (Action-type) a story would be appreciated. I mean, even Zelda has a story. You basically just tell us there's characters and a story but don't let us know what that is. Is it a save the world quest? A quest for redemption? Something quirky like following a rabbit down a hole or something interesting like, IDK, following a baby being protected during a war and seeing how that child is unknowingly involved in political plots and such? Or maybe just following some guy on his journey to find his father?
Who knows? You're not telling us. All I know about your game is it's supposed to be short, Homage sounds like it might be a parody or, well, homage to another game and that it involves some stick. Maybe.
- Show only the best. Your mapping is decent for the most part (some maps are bare as balls) but it's not much more than 'generic forest, generic town, generic...'. Sad as it is to say, people aren't going to consider your game in the top percentage if it doesn't have something that jumps out at them. Look at the top percentage of games on this site and compare. Yours is sadly lacking in that one thing - heart.
It doesn't help that you're not showing off anything exciting. Hell, look at the current top buzzing games. One of them - Reincarnation - is gorgeous. Just look at it. Now compare your own.
Yes, your skills might not be up to Nessy's and Hirei's but you should at least show off the best of what you have if you want to drum up more traffic.
Lastly, no. People don't consider their games the best out there (unless they've completely lost the plot or big-noting themselves or have ego issues). I know I don't. I might be proud of a few of my ones but when matched against others I know they aren't the be-all end-all.
That you bring that attitude about your game here is insulting to all those who have worked hard on their games and have just as good, if not better, looking/playing games that you. Don't think you've made the best thing ever. If your game isn't drawing people after all of this it probably wasn't as good as you thought it was. I'M NOT SAYING IT'S TERRIBLE AND A WASTE, just not as good as you seem to think.
The thing you should be aiming for is more reviews, not more downloads. Reviews will let you know what you need to change, what you need to add and what you did well. Then pick yourself up and tell yourself this:
"Next time I'll do better."
Wait, how does one filter things like that for their own game? I'm quite curious to see how mine is actually. o_O
author=Xenomic
Wait, how does one filter things like that for their own game? I'm quite curious to see how mine is actually. o_O
I just sorted them by download and found which page my game was on vs the total number of pages.
author=Liberty
Well, for one, this could have been a blog post. For two, game plugs aren't allowed. You could, however, edit it to aim it more towards a general 'why don't certain games get more coverage' and/or 'how do you advertise
...
change, what you need to add and what you did well. Then pick yourself up and tell yourself this:
"Next time I'll do better."
First of all, thank you for your post. You have given me some valuable information. I apologise for offending you. I was not trying to plug my game; I honestly don't care about getting additional downloads for my game any more, and I thought I made that clear. Please notice that I didn't even name my game and I didn't include the link until the very end.
If you have the time and inclination, I have some follow-up questions for you. Please understand that I am looking for your advice and I am not trying to argue with you.
In your first dot-point you talk about how the first comment claims my game is a virus. What would you have done in that situation? You seem to be saying that I should put something in the game description saying 'It's not a virus' or something to that effect. I worried about putting that because of the 'No smoke without fire' response that people naturally have.
Also, I am genuinely curious about something. Are you saying that you don't think your own games are good? Take the last game that you made. Would you say that it is:
- In the bottom 50%?
- In the top 50%?
- In the top 20%?
- In the top 10%?
I am just plainly curious about this. I wasn't trying to make a special claim about my game; I just assumed that everyone at least thought their own game was good.
EDIT: This is called illusory superiority.
For your first question I would put something saying that people had complained of a virus, you got it sorted out and there's no issue there anymore. That way people will see that while it was an issue at one point, it's now been dealt with. Same with bugs. There were bugs, they've been fixed. People will then disregard the earlier comments.
Making it clear for prospective players right off the bat will put them at ease with downloading your game.
As for the percentage thing? I don't really care. As long as some people like my game and it's not universally hated, I'm not going to put it in a percentage. Everyone who plays a game has different opinions about whether it was good or bad, things they liked and didn't. This changes with all games.
Some people might think one of my games is the best thing they ever played while I, myself, might regard it as one of my worst creations. And vice versa. You can't really tell what people are going to like until it's out there and in the public, because people's opinions vary so much.
Hell, one game of mine has a lot more downloads than all the others and it would not have been the one I'd have picked. Others don't have many even though I thought they might have been better received.
I'd say mine as a collective fall into the top 50% if I had to pick a place but that's because I've played a hell of a lot of games out there and can judge them as so. That's another thing - unless you've played most of the games on the site you can't really judge because you don't know what the rest have to offer and how your own game stacks up to them. (I'm going to bet that I'm one of the few people who have played around 250-500 RM games. Out of the 5000 this site represents and the many thousands that aren't on this site... that's just a small drop in the ocean. How can I judge except by the ones I've played? And the same to anyone.)
That said, you can get a good feel for a game on how well-recepted it has been. A good indication of being in the top 10% of this site would be if it was Feature Game material or how many Misaos it brings home or how many reviews it has. Frankly, I've not had a game nominated for a Misao (that doesn't say much since many, many, many great games haven't been), nor had a game Featured, NOR got a shit-ton of reviews (though I've a few that do have more than one or two).
So how do I know my games are above the bottom 50%? I don't know for sure, but having played as many games as I have, judged competitions and been in the RM world since around '98, I'd say I had enough knowledge on the subject to rate them in a general way. Some are worse, some are better, some are like by fans, others liked by me.
Frankly, it's not worth it to try and judge such a thing anyway. Downloads =/= good game. There have been plenty of horrible games that got a lot of downloads because of controversy. There have been a lot of really good games that just got ignored. It's not fair, but it just is.
Making it clear for prospective players right off the bat will put them at ease with downloading your game.
As for the percentage thing? I don't really care. As long as some people like my game and it's not universally hated, I'm not going to put it in a percentage. Everyone who plays a game has different opinions about whether it was good or bad, things they liked and didn't. This changes with all games.
Some people might think one of my games is the best thing they ever played while I, myself, might regard it as one of my worst creations. And vice versa. You can't really tell what people are going to like until it's out there and in the public, because people's opinions vary so much.
Hell, one game of mine has a lot more downloads than all the others and it would not have been the one I'd have picked. Others don't have many even though I thought they might have been better received.
I'd say mine as a collective fall into the top 50% if I had to pick a place but that's because I've played a hell of a lot of games out there and can judge them as so. That's another thing - unless you've played most of the games on the site you can't really judge because you don't know what the rest have to offer and how your own game stacks up to them. (I'm going to bet that I'm one of the few people who have played around 250-500 RM games. Out of the 5000 this site represents and the many thousands that aren't on this site... that's just a small drop in the ocean. How can I judge except by the ones I've played? And the same to anyone.)
That said, you can get a good feel for a game on how well-recepted it has been. A good indication of being in the top 10% of this site would be if it was Feature Game material or how many Misaos it brings home or how many reviews it has. Frankly, I've not had a game nominated for a Misao (that doesn't say much since many, many, many great games haven't been), nor had a game Featured, NOR got a shit-ton of reviews (though I've a few that do have more than one or two).
So how do I know my games are above the bottom 50%? I don't know for sure, but having played as many games as I have, judged competitions and been in the RM world since around '98, I'd say I had enough knowledge on the subject to rate them in a general way. Some are worse, some are better, some are like by fans, others liked by me.
Frankly, it's not worth it to try and judge such a thing anyway. Downloads =/= good game. There have been plenty of horrible games that got a lot of downloads because of controversy. There have been a lot of really good games that just got ignored. It's not fair, but it just is.
author=Liberty
As for the percentage thing? I don't really care. As long as some people like my game and it's not universally hated, I'm not going to put it in a percentage. Everyone who plays a game has different opinions about whether it was good or bad, things they liked and didn't. This changes with all games.
Whether or not you care, you must have an opinion about your own games.
...if you read all that I wrote above you'd have your answer, instead of just picking the first sentence that allows you to argue your point. ^.^
As I said before:
My opinion changes depending on the game. Some of my own games I like, some I don't. Some I'm surprised people like, some I'm surprised people don't. I do not, nor have I ever, thought that my games are in the top percentile. Anyone with a hint of common sense will tell you that no matter the craft, you can always improve and endless improvements skew the percentile, so it really doesn't mean much to say 'my game is in the top 2%' because if the other 2% improve and make new games that are better than their last, your game falls lower and lower on the scale.
Instead, try to make your game memorable and fun - something that people will remember. That's how you truly get people to play and that's how you win at game creation. Not by aiming for a number that will constantly change but by aiming for people to enjoy and recommend your game to others.
As I said before:
My opinion changes depending on the game. Some of my own games I like, some I don't. Some I'm surprised people like, some I'm surprised people don't. I do not, nor have I ever, thought that my games are in the top percentile. Anyone with a hint of common sense will tell you that no matter the craft, you can always improve and endless improvements skew the percentile, so it really doesn't mean much to say 'my game is in the top 2%' because if the other 2% improve and make new games that are better than their last, your game falls lower and lower on the scale.
Instead, try to make your game memorable and fun - something that people will remember. That's how you truly get people to play and that's how you win at game creation. Not by aiming for a number that will constantly change but by aiming for people to enjoy and recommend your game to others.
author=Liberty
...if you read all that I wrote above you'd have your answer, instead of just picking the first sentence that allows you to argue your point. ^.^
As I said before:
My opinion changes depending on the game. Some of my own games I like, some I don't. Some I'm surprised people like, some I'm surprised people don't. I do not, nor have I ever, thought that my games are in the top percentile. Anyone with a hint of common sense will tell you that no matter the craft, you can always improve and endless improvements skew the percentile, so it really doesn't mean much to say 'my game is in the top 2%' because if the other 2% improve and make new games that are better than their last, your game falls lower and lower on the scale.
Instead, try to make your game memorable and fun - something that people will remember. That's how you truly get people to play and that's how you win at game creation. Not by aiming for a number that will constantly change but by aiming for people to enjoy and recommend your game to others.
Just for reference,
top 1% = top percentile.
top 10% = top decile.
Whether you like it or not and whether you admit it or not, there must exist some percentile p for which you - not the community, but you - think that p% of the games on this site are not as good as your most recent game. You are well within your rights not to answer my question, but you can't pretend that it so ill defined as to be unanswerable.
I opened this thread to get advice on why my game was downloaded so little. Your first post gave me some helpful insights and I thank you for that, but I am not going to thank you for giving me an inane lecture on how vain you think I am. Not one of the points in your first post would be fixed merely by making my game more 'memorable and fun', (or by being more humble), since they are all considerations that precede the point at which a prospective player has ever had the chance to play my game (because they haven't downloaded it yet - which is the whole point).
But I am grateful for the advice you gave me about making the project page more exciting. I will keep it in mind for future games.
Just based on your title screen alone I would give your
game a passing glance. Presentation is important.
Even if your game sucks, if it has good presenation, people
will download it. And if your game is good and
has bad presentation then people won't know its good.
Advertising your game on other forums is easy. RMN has
pretty strict entry requirements, so you should be able
to post this on another page with what you already have.
I posted a page on the RPG Maker VX Ace forum, there
should be one for VX and XP too.
Also, how did you figure out how your game ranks?
author=kory_toombs
Also, how did you figure out how your game ranks?
I did it manually by going to the games list, and filtering by the categories I described, then sorting by number of downloads. I then just looked at where my game came up in the 80 or so pages.
There are a lot of games I don't think are as good as my own... and a lot that are better. Some of my games are better than the others in MY opinion, even if other people don't agree or prefer another. I didn't outright say as such but in my second post I did say that if I had to put a percentage it would be in the top 50%, which indicates there is a lower 50%. Silly me for thinking you'd actually read what I wrote and could read between the lines.
That said, I haven't played all the games to see how they rank against each other so it's an inaccurate guess at most, hence practically worthless. (And actually, my most recent game ain't that good since I made it in, oh, 24 hours, so it's not really a judge-worthy aspect of what I can do.)
Nor did I tell you 'be more humble' but instead 'don't bother about judging your game - others will do it for you and it doesn't really mean anything when you judge because your thoughts aren't the same as the people playing it for x reasons I share with you below'.
'Being memorable and fun' is a valid answer. If your game isn't fun players won't finish it, nor will they recommend it to others. The same with memorable. Tell me, what RM games have you played that you think were the best of the best? Were they fun or memorable or both? Which games would you recommend to others? The ones you thought were cool (fun and memorable) and enjoyed playing (fun) or the ones you didn't enjoy and didn't find interesting?
In the business world the first thing you learn is to appreciate customer feedback and hope for your customers to spread the word about your services. It's the same in game creation. There are many threads by many people on many forums asking for others to recommend them games to play and most of the time certain names keep popping up - the names of games that were fun and memorable*.
@Kory:
There's really no official ranking of games apart from those ones I shared in my third post, which aren't really 'rankings' but more guides as to what are the better games on the site. Better not necessarily meaning Best, though it indicates as such. Some people have disagreed with some of the choices for Featured Games in the past due to their own expectations as to what makes a game stand out as deserving of the honour.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*Memorable games stick in your mind and keep with you forever. A Blurred Line; Three, the Hard Way; Love and War; Ara Fell; The Reconstruction; Hero's Realm; Star Stealing Prince ... et cetera
These are games that are touted as the best not just because they have great heart and are quality games, but also because each is memorable in their own way.
ABL's story and characters were written very well and the atmosphere was great.
TtHW has a great cast, a very deep yet approachable story and interesting gameplay mechanics.
Ara Fell had fantastic mapping, an endearing cast and amazing atmosphere.
Love and War had heart, a gripping storyline, funny endearing characters and a lot of extras that just made the game interesting and a joy to play.
The Reconstruction had interesting gameplay, a good story and great graphics.
Hero's Realm took the best of the nostalgic games and made them work, had almost-perfect balance, was fun to play and had lots of things to do in the world, as well as interesting gameplay and flexibility in creating your 4 parties.
SSP had great atmosphere, an interesting story and cast.
I'm not saying each doesn't have some faults because they do. They aren't ever going to be the best games ever made nor would I count all of them in the top percentile, but ultimately that doesn't matter because they are considered by the majority to be the best... which makes them so.
And just for the record, I have played the worst games the RM world has had to offer. I have played the best (insomuch as there is a best) the RM world currently has to offer. So when I say it's impossible to really pin down something, it is. Why? Because people are constantly refining, redoing and remaking games to be better than they were.
And frankly, I am 100% okay with that fucking up your top percentile.
Good day, sir.
EDIT:
- games that have been on the site for longer will naturally have more downloads.
- games that caused controversy will also have more downloads, no matter the quality. Yes, I'm calling out Final Tear 3.
- games that were released during/for events will have more downloads off the bat.
- some games just don't get noticed, no matter their quality.
- bad presentation of a good game will mean less downloads. It doesn't mean the game is worse than a crappier game with higher downloads.
That said, I haven't played all the games to see how they rank against each other so it's an inaccurate guess at most, hence practically worthless. (And actually, my most recent game ain't that good since I made it in, oh, 24 hours, so it's not really a judge-worthy aspect of what I can do.)
Nor did I tell you 'be more humble' but instead 'don't bother about judging your game - others will do it for you and it doesn't really mean anything when you judge because your thoughts aren't the same as the people playing it for x reasons I share with you below'.
'Being memorable and fun' is a valid answer. If your game isn't fun players won't finish it, nor will they recommend it to others. The same with memorable. Tell me, what RM games have you played that you think were the best of the best? Were they fun or memorable or both? Which games would you recommend to others? The ones you thought were cool (fun and memorable) and enjoyed playing (fun) or the ones you didn't enjoy and didn't find interesting?
In the business world the first thing you learn is to appreciate customer feedback and hope for your customers to spread the word about your services. It's the same in game creation. There are many threads by many people on many forums asking for others to recommend them games to play and most of the time certain names keep popping up - the names of games that were fun and memorable*.
@Kory:
There's really no official ranking of games apart from those ones I shared in my third post, which aren't really 'rankings' but more guides as to what are the better games on the site. Better not necessarily meaning Best, though it indicates as such. Some people have disagreed with some of the choices for Featured Games in the past due to their own expectations as to what makes a game stand out as deserving of the honour.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*Memorable games stick in your mind and keep with you forever. A Blurred Line; Three, the Hard Way; Love and War; Ara Fell; The Reconstruction; Hero's Realm; Star Stealing Prince ... et cetera
These are games that are touted as the best not just because they have great heart and are quality games, but also because each is memorable in their own way.
ABL's story and characters were written very well and the atmosphere was great.
TtHW has a great cast, a very deep yet approachable story and interesting gameplay mechanics.
Ara Fell had fantastic mapping, an endearing cast and amazing atmosphere.
Love and War had heart, a gripping storyline, funny endearing characters and a lot of extras that just made the game interesting and a joy to play.
The Reconstruction had interesting gameplay, a good story and great graphics.
Hero's Realm took the best of the nostalgic games and made them work, had almost-perfect balance, was fun to play and had lots of things to do in the world, as well as interesting gameplay and flexibility in creating your 4 parties.
SSP had great atmosphere, an interesting story and cast.
I'm not saying each doesn't have some faults because they do. They aren't ever going to be the best games ever made nor would I count all of them in the top percentile, but ultimately that doesn't matter because they are considered by the majority to be the best... which makes them so.
And just for the record, I have played the worst games the RM world has had to offer. I have played the best (insomuch as there is a best) the RM world currently has to offer. So when I say it's impossible to really pin down something, it is. Why? Because people are constantly refining, redoing and remaking games to be better than they were.
And frankly, I am 100% okay with that fucking up your top percentile.
Good day, sir.
EDIT:
author=Raoul589This only tells you how many downloads you have. That has nothing to do with quality as:author=kory_toombsI did it manually by going to the games list, and filtering by the categories I described, then sorting by number of downloads. I then just looked at where my game came up in the 80 or so pages.
Also, how did you figure out how your game ranks?
- games that have been on the site for longer will naturally have more downloads.
- games that caused controversy will also have more downloads, no matter the quality. Yes, I'm calling out Final Tear 3.
- games that were released during/for events will have more downloads off the bat.
- some games just don't get noticed, no matter their quality.
- bad presentation of a good game will mean less downloads. It doesn't mean the game is worse than a crappier game with higher downloads.
don't forget some games have multiple downloads and the number you see in the games list is the combined number of all available downloads. some of those downloads could be old demo's and beta's or even non game items like fonts or missing resource fixes.
Raoul, you should listen to what Liberty is saying. she has been around the RM scene for a long time and she is right.
I can tell you why I think you're game doesn't have many downloads.
I've never heard of you or you're game. I've never heard you talk about it or anybody else talk about it. I've never seen it on the frontpage. Although I haven't been around much in the last 2 months, you're game has been out for longer than that. you probably never took part in any events, posted on others games, or even participated in forum topic conversations. I don't recognize your username or avatar.
Looking at the game page, it looks like a typical sub-par VX game. Plain CSS, tacky looking title image(it looks like something from a 90's DOS game), and the screens don't show me anything interesting.
The first screen shows a lifeless town layout, default window skin, default font(is that default?), default faceset, default sprites, default everything. I could be wrong because im not familiar with VX games, but it LOOKS default and plain.
The dungeon looking maps are ok, but nothing outstanding. Same old VX looking graphics, which I personally don't like.
Then desert map, which looks like a fighting area. It's big and bland. It's not awful, but it's nothing special!
Then the dragon fight...the layout of the room is random and non-functional as a map. Where's the door? even if it's a closed space for fighting, have a way in and lock it. the boxes and shelf are randomly placed to make it not look like an empty square. those are just the default tiles available so you used them. The HP displays are basic bars of color with no text!! how can that be considered top 10% of quality?
it has a good review and the few comments offer praise of the game, so it has some hope. but you haven't done enough to make the game look good and stand out, and you haven't done enough to promote it.
Raoul, you should listen to what Liberty is saying. she has been around the RM scene for a long time and she is right.
I can tell you why I think you're game doesn't have many downloads.
I've never heard of you or you're game. I've never heard you talk about it or anybody else talk about it. I've never seen it on the frontpage. Although I haven't been around much in the last 2 months, you're game has been out for longer than that. you probably never took part in any events, posted on others games, or even participated in forum topic conversations. I don't recognize your username or avatar.
Looking at the game page, it looks like a typical sub-par VX game. Plain CSS, tacky looking title image(it looks like something from a 90's DOS game), and the screens don't show me anything interesting.
The first screen shows a lifeless town layout, default window skin, default font(is that default?), default faceset, default sprites, default everything. I could be wrong because im not familiar with VX games, but it LOOKS default and plain.
The dungeon looking maps are ok, but nothing outstanding. Same old VX looking graphics, which I personally don't like.
Then desert map, which looks like a fighting area. It's big and bland. It's not awful, but it's nothing special!
Then the dragon fight...the layout of the room is random and non-functional as a map. Where's the door? even if it's a closed space for fighting, have a way in and lock it. the boxes and shelf are randomly placed to make it not look like an empty square. those are just the default tiles available so you used them. The HP displays are basic bars of color with no text!! how can that be considered top 10% of quality?
it has a good review and the few comments offer praise of the game, so it has some hope. but you haven't done enough to make the game look good and stand out, and you haven't done enough to promote it.
Just for the record, the best way to tell how your game fares against the rest on the site is the stars system we currently have. Granted, the more reviews a game has, the greater the star 'weight' - that is, the stars are averaged out by the reviews, so a game with one review at four stars, while good, can't automatically be called better than a 3-star game with 10 reviews. It may just be that adding an extra 9 reviews brings the once-4-star game down to 2.5 instead.
You could also check the statistics thread for fun (Site Feedback forum) to see the top 10 of certain lists. It's for fun, not a definite 'this is the law, these are awesome' but you do get a decent look into what is considered 'up there'.
You could also check the statistics thread for fun (Site Feedback forum) to see the top 10 of certain lists. It's for fun, not a definite 'this is the law, these are awesome' but you do get a decent look into what is considered 'up there'.
That isn't a very effective way of ranking your game.
I tried it, and my first game (released in mid January) outranks
my second game (released in late March.) My second game is obviously
better than my first, but my first has more downloads....
Why? Because my first game has been here longer.
But when I look at subscribers: I have 4 for my first and 10
for my second. So out of the people who downloaded my games
I can really tell how many really really liked it.
The way you have determined the value of your game is actually
not a true value of your games worth. How you feel about your
game and how it makes other people feel (usually you'll get
a comment or two) will tell you how valuable your game is.
Are my games the greatest? Absolutely not. There are tons of
wayyyy better games on here. Seriously a lot better. But that
doesn't get me down and I'm still a little proud of what I have
accomplished.
author=Liberty
This only tells you how many downloads you have.
Exactly. Did I ever make any other claim?
author=Link_2112
Raoul, you should listen to what Liberty is saying. She has been around the RM scene for a long time and she is right.
What part, exactly? What is she right about, and on what basis do you make that claim? What deep lesson is it that I'm supposed to be learning from Liberty? Despite what she says, I have read every word that she has written, and since her second post I have found nothing but a series of vacuous statements. See if you can find the profound passages that are supposed to change my outlook on everything.
author=kory_toombs
That isn't a very effective way of ranking your game.
Actually, It's a 100% accurate way of ranking how many times a game has been downloaded relative to other games. I mistook your question for a factual one, and now I realise that it was rhetorical.
author=kory_toombs
The way you have determined the value of your game is actually
not a true value of your games worth.
How do you think I have determined the value of my game? I asked how I could get more downloads, not how I could value my game more. I have already said that I value my own game highly, which is why I would have liked more people to have experienced it. However, my statement that I think my game is really good seems to be precisely what has attracted everyone's ire in the first place.
author=Liberty
Just for the record, the best way to tell how your game fares against the rest on the site is the stars system we currently have.
I don't think that's true. I could go to any game with no reviews right now, give it a 2 star review, and almost no one would ever look at it again. The requirement to review a game in order to rate it puts up such a high barrier that only the most motivated community member will write a review. Here are some statistics:
- Hero's Realm (the most reviewed game) has been downloaded 20,608 times, and reviewed 15 times, which means that 0.07% of the people who have played Hero's Realm have rated it.
- Legionwood (the most downloaded game) has been downloaded 22,382 times, and reviewed 5 times, which means that 0.02% of the people who have played Legionwood have rated it.
Notice two things. I could go right now and submit a single five star review of Legionwood, ands its rating would go up from 3.5 to 3.75. If I did this twice more (with fake accounts), the rating would go up to 4. Doesn't it seem at least a little strange that I (read: some random moron) can have such a massive amount of influence over the rating of a game? What about what the other 22,377 people (99.98%) who downloaded the game but didn't review it? Where are their opinions reflected?
But hey, I guess since my own game got 4 stars and
author=Liberty
.. the best way to tell how your game fares against the rest on the site is the stars system we currently have
and
author=Liberty
Downloads =/= good game
my game is better than Legionwood, right?
Please notice that not once did I say that download numbers were particularly important, nor did I say that I judged my game or any other as crap just because it had low dowloads. Obviously, if 35 more people come along and download my game, it doesn't become 10% better. The point is - and this is true whether we like it or not, and personally, I don't like it - that people do decide which game to play next at least partially on the basis of downloads.
Take Legionwood. I remember playing Legionwood a year or so ago. Did I play it because of its great presentation (Have a look here)? Hmmm. Its fantastic 3.5 star rating? Hmmm. I tried it precisely because of its high download count. You can only pretend that I am some exceptional case if you are feeling particularly dishonest. All of you talk about how poor the presentation of my game is on this site. This is completely true and I totally understand what you are all saying about that (this, I have learned from all of you). However, ask yourselves - and do try to be honest with yourselves - if my game had 10,000 downloads, don't you think you might have been more inclined to look past the poor presentation, and try the game anyway?
From this thread, I have learned:
All games get only a passing glance by default. There are three ways that someone is going to decide to play a game. A good recommendation, good presentation, or high downloads. Pretend that the last one is not true all you like.
I understand you all have a very low opinion of me by now, but my claims are only these:
- The number of downloads is the most accurate measure of the number of people who have had the chance to experience your game.
- Presumably, you make games in order for people to experience them.
- Therefore, you do care about how many downloads your game has.
Well, maybe that's how you judge whether a game is worth playing but I don't look at the downloads. Hell, I only looked at my own download amounts after you mentioned them. Until that point I hadn't even realised one of my games had passed the 1000 mark. :/
Personally I look at the game page and screenshots/media, whether I know the person and have seen them around, whether the description sounds interesting, if I've heard about it from others and sometimes I'll just pick a game at random. I've never used downloads to determine my downloading choices. Ever.
That said, if you take nothing away from my posts then I can't help that. Ignorance is bliss, apparently.
Personally I look at the game page and screenshots/media, whether I know the person and have seen them around, whether the description sounds interesting, if I've heard about it from others and sometimes I'll just pick a game at random. I've never used downloads to determine my downloading choices. Ever.
That said, if you take nothing away from my posts then I can't help that. Ignorance is bliss, apparently.
author=Liberty
That said, if you take nothing away from my posts then I can't help that. Ignorance is bliss, apparently.
Google 'define: ignorance'.
Good day to you, too.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I was really expecting google to list "bliss" as a definition or a synonym and it let me down
author=Roul589
if my game had 10,000 downloads, don't you think you might have been more inclined to look past the poor presentation, and try the game anyway?
Nope! And I don't think almost anyone would, at least not here. We're a close-knitted community of first-developers-then-players. We're very critical of that sort of thing... At best, I'd be more inclined to sit trough the comment sections of your game and try to form myself a more informed opinion of it, but with those images I still wouldn't think of downloading it. ;P
Is for those same reasons why I don't think anyone here expects to break more than a couple hundred downloads with their games, even if they think what they do is top quality. I'd say that in order for a game to even get like 1k downloads it has to (besides being 'good') make noise outside of RMN and/or let a few years pass. Therein lies the answer for your question...
Step 1: Whore your game in every venue that you can. Fork over the money to pay for publicity if you have to.
Step 2: Make sure your game is short, has a little bit of everything and/or deals with pseudo-complex issues.
Step 3: ???? (Presumably, make your game actually fun to play.)
Step 4: Sit back and watch flocks of simpletons downloading your game to never hear from them again...
Seriously though, I'd be more concerned with the 'quality' of the people playing my game than with the 'quantity', but that's just me. ;P
you say things like this
and this
like you have everything figured out. and everybody is the same as the model player you have in your mind.
well...heh whether you like it or not, you're wrong. not completely wrong in that some people do care only about the things you are talking about. but wrong in thinking that everybody is that way and these are the only things that matter to everybody.
you're taking things to literally, like doing the math about how much reviews compare to downloads and the number of people who played the game. you're maybe not considering things like 1) some people download and never actually open the game 2) some people hate the game and delete it right away and 3) some people download multiple times. download count by itself is a flawed measure of anything relating to quality. youtube has many examples of this.
you can't use download count as "the number of people that experienced your game". some can't run the game, some quit during the tutorial or opening 40 minute cutscene, some quit after realizing there is slow walk speed and huge maps, some never make it very far in the game. they didn't exactly experience it, as most games start off slow and get more involved over time. and there's always going to be a huge number of people who download the game that don't have accounts and never post, so you will never hear from them either way.
that's why the comments on the gamepage and images are, imo, one of the best ways to judge a game. the people who actually played and took the time to post their likes or dislikes have the most weight. then reviews, with a grain of salt because that's just one persons opinion(altho we have many trustworthy reviewers). then media(images and lets plays and trailers), because you can see first hand the quality of the game. and then maybe downloads, but any intelligent and experienced gamer should realize that dl count doesn't reflect quality. just...maybe..popularity. most of the games that have high downloads got high downloads because they are good games! or they were advertised on dozens of other sites or had some "famous" site do an article about the game. they are not good games because they have high downloads. anybody who truly thinks that is a little short-sighted.
a side bar about reviews. if 10 people give high praising reviews then its a pretty good sign that the game is good. but don't just look at the average star value, or even how many 5 stars there are out of the bunch. read the reviews. listen to what each person is saying. if several people mention the same good things about the game then its probably true. as opposed to some jackass writing a good review without even explaining why he just gave a joke game 5 stars.
im curious. where do you get your information about what other people look for? do you survey gamers to find out that they download games based on count? or is that the way you feel and your assuming others feel that way too. how can you be so sure about this as to say "whether you like it or not, it's true"?
I don't decide anything by download count. I have never played legionwood, and I tried hero's realm and didn't care for it(even tho I can respect what it is). there are many high download count games here that I've never played because I don't look at that when finding a game.
I look for engine. then graphic sytle(I hate rtp and vx/xp style). then screenshots to see mapping and overall presentation. then description to see story and features. then I download and play and hope for the best.
I would like high download counts for my games. I like big numbers. but the way to measure success is a combination of many things, the least of which is the size of your download count. that is what liberty has been saying and that is what you should listen to. you seem to be on a crusade to prove that download count is extremely important. you won't win that argument here.
you didn't outright say "downloads are extremely important" but you are suggesting it with things like
I don't have a low opinion of you. that is yet another thing you are incorrectly assuming.
I make games because I like making games. if it becomes popular, then it's only a bonus.
Whether you like it or not and whether you admit it or not, there must exist some percentile p for which you - not the community, but you - think that p% of the games on this site are not as good as your most recent game. You are well within your rights not to answer my question, but you can't pretend that it so ill defined as to be unanswerable.
and this
The point is - and this is true whether we like it or not, and personally, I don't like it - that people do decide which game to play next at least partially on the basis of downloads.
like you have everything figured out. and everybody is the same as the model player you have in your mind.
well...heh whether you like it or not, you're wrong. not completely wrong in that some people do care only about the things you are talking about. but wrong in thinking that everybody is that way and these are the only things that matter to everybody.
you're taking things to literally, like doing the math about how much reviews compare to downloads and the number of people who played the game. you're maybe not considering things like 1) some people download and never actually open the game 2) some people hate the game and delete it right away and 3) some people download multiple times. download count by itself is a flawed measure of anything relating to quality. youtube has many examples of this.
you can't use download count as "the number of people that experienced your game". some can't run the game, some quit during the tutorial or opening 40 minute cutscene, some quit after realizing there is slow walk speed and huge maps, some never make it very far in the game. they didn't exactly experience it, as most games start off slow and get more involved over time. and there's always going to be a huge number of people who download the game that don't have accounts and never post, so you will never hear from them either way.
that's why the comments on the gamepage and images are, imo, one of the best ways to judge a game. the people who actually played and took the time to post their likes or dislikes have the most weight. then reviews, with a grain of salt because that's just one persons opinion(altho we have many trustworthy reviewers). then media(images and lets plays and trailers), because you can see first hand the quality of the game. and then maybe downloads, but any intelligent and experienced gamer should realize that dl count doesn't reflect quality. just...maybe..popularity. most of the games that have high downloads got high downloads because they are good games! or they were advertised on dozens of other sites or had some "famous" site do an article about the game. they are not good games because they have high downloads. anybody who truly thinks that is a little short-sighted.
a side bar about reviews. if 10 people give high praising reviews then its a pretty good sign that the game is good. but don't just look at the average star value, or even how many 5 stars there are out of the bunch. read the reviews. listen to what each person is saying. if several people mention the same good things about the game then its probably true. as opposed to some jackass writing a good review without even explaining why he just gave a joke game 5 stars.
im curious. where do you get your information about what other people look for? do you survey gamers to find out that they download games based on count? or is that the way you feel and your assuming others feel that way too. how can you be so sure about this as to say "whether you like it or not, it's true"?
I don't decide anything by download count. I have never played legionwood, and I tried hero's realm and didn't care for it(even tho I can respect what it is). there are many high download count games here that I've never played because I don't look at that when finding a game.
I look for engine. then graphic sytle(I hate rtp and vx/xp style). then screenshots to see mapping and overall presentation. then description to see story and features. then I download and play and hope for the best.
I would like high download counts for my games. I like big numbers. but the way to measure success is a combination of many things, the least of which is the size of your download count. that is what liberty has been saying and that is what you should listen to. you seem to be on a crusade to prove that download count is extremely important. you won't win that argument here.
you didn't outright say "downloads are extremely important" but you are suggesting it with things like
All games get only a passing glance by default. There are three ways that someone is going to decide to play a game. A good recommendation, good presentation, or high downloads. Pretend that the last one is not true all you like.
I understand you all have a very low opinion of me by now, but my claims are only these:
◾The number of downloads is the most accurate measure of the number of people who have had the chance to experience your game.
◾Presumably, you make games in order for people to experience them.
◾Therefore, you do care about how many downloads your game has.
I don't have a low opinion of you. that is yet another thing you are incorrectly assuming.
I make games because I like making games. if it becomes popular, then it's only a bonus.

















