EXPERIENCE AND LEVELING UP

(mostly @LockeZ)

Builds are more a WRPG thing.

I grew up with Phantasy Star 2-4 and Shining Force 1&2, Sword of Vermillion, Wonder Boy in Monster World, Shining in the Darkness and I loved all those games and all had fixed character growth.

As for why I play RPGs, for me there are some important factors (weighted, so first = most important):

1. Music, might sounds silly, but music is really the most important aspect for me and in RPG it usually shines most, especially the battle themes (though some Shmups also have good music). I need my Kenji Ito and Motoi Sakuraba music.

2. Dungeon exploration! I love huge maze-like dungeons you can slowly explore and map out in your head. They NEED to make physically sense for me to enjoy them (Phantasy Star II still has my favorite dungeon design of all times, no other game managed to make such complicated dungeons again). Best is if the game gives you an instant-exit spell and the dungeon has a "wide" design rather than a "long" design (that means many possible path but the correct path isn't actually that long if you know it, I'm also fond of ways to unlock shortcuts).

3. What Grayburg said about single button press. Love it when I can just smash buttons randomly and can watch those huge super combo flashy skills (best example: Valkyrie Profile).

4. Immersion - feeling like a big hero, feeling like doing something meaningful. Not too important but it's for example the reason why I really like Ys (along with the good music).

5. Strategical thinking - may it be small puzzles or combat spell choices. I actually like the action style a lot too, but it depends on my mood. Sometimes I just want something to play slowly, without any time limit, where I can wait to make a choice as much as I want and sometimes I want to play something that doesn't require me to think but tests my reactions skills. Usually Shmups can cover the latter, but for strategical thinking it's either RPGs or maybe playing some turn based strategy game (but there aren't many good ones).

6. To stay on topic: GRINDING!!! Yeah RPGs is the only genre that allows you too balance out your lack in skill by additional effort. That's why grinding is pretty important for me. Some Shmups actually added such a think as well by giving you more credits the longer you play them (Ikaruga and Gradius V for examplke).


So yeah, story is pretty unimportant for me, I usually skip all dialogues anyway nowadays (JRPG stories aren't exactly good, if I want a good story I play a horror adventure). Also making builds (or anything that requires "menu browsing" at that) is something I consider as very tedious and game flow destroying. Also kinda ruins immersion when you spend 50% of the playing time in menus and reading guides on how to make a good build.

That's not true, all have to do with RPGs and I explained in each section why.
1. Music is particularly good in RPGs.
2. Dungeon exploration only exists in RPGs.
3. Only RPGs have skill-free button mashing combined with watching super combos.
4. RPGs strongly focus on immersion, though other games can have that too.
5. Strategical thinking is also mostly in RPGs.

author=kentona
1. That is not something specific to RPGs
2. No. I explored dungeons in platformers and Zelda, to name two.
3. Have you played fighting games? or any other kind of games?
4. RPGs can strongly focus on immersion. Any game can.
5. Have you played, say, a strategy game? Real-time or turnbased, either or.

Yah, but you could say that certain RPGs do these things exceptionally well or better than other genres. Perhaps Rya likes the way they are handled in such games more than others. For instance, the nostalgic soundtrack of Final Fantasy makes him want to cream his little pants, but you can find that in Katamari, right? But Katamari doesn't *also* have dungeon exploration, but that can be found in Zelda, too? But he likes the way the Final Fantasy deals with immersion better than the action-oriented Zelda, but that can be found in the Walking Dead series, right? But the Walking Dead series doesn't have skill-free button mashing and combos, which Final Fantasy does well, but Tekken does it better, right? Tekken doesn't employ strategic thinking, however, and Final Fantasy does that (a little bit).

I think the point I'm trying to make is that Rya was trying to point out RPG genre's strongpoints rather than "RPGS HAVE MUSIC AND NO OTHER MEDIUM DOES", because of course other mediums have music and dungeons and skills and strategy, these are common to games as a whole, not just video games. There is a certain way that a lot of RPGs handle these elements in common, however, that elevates it beyond the norm, such that an RPG feel can be achieved without having to balance skill and stat at all, by just experiencing the nature of an RPG's story, music, exploration, immersion and strategy in and of itself.

kind of silly posts

- list wasn't (at first..) for rpg-exclusive features; lol @ only rpgs have dungeons

- 5b > 2a+b > 46b > 2a > 5c(15) 2c > 6b > 2b > 2d > j.bc > 28c > 4b > 2a+b > 46b > 236236d != summon > bahamut

- thread was resolved within the first few posts; wasn't even rya that derailed

What thatbennyguy said. He explained it much better than I could. :-)

My second list referred to the points with the same number of my detailed list so when I said "only RPGs have this" I referred the exact implementation of what I described to like in RPGs.

But yeah the basic point is: There are lots of things that make RPGs great and are not implemented as well in other genres, so leaving away build choices is a viable option.

Am I the only one who enjoys leveling up and grinding?

Anyway, I guess one way that I think was mentioned is to have set level ups occur at specific points: only after boss battles or at a specific plot event.

Also having enemies die off in a area after fighting there for a certain variable could be a way to prevent you from spending hours in the same place grinding.

author=Erave
Am I the only one who enjoys leveling up and grinding?

No, but for a developer trying to make a game that's actually potentially challenging in any fashion whatsoever, freely allowing unlimited gaining of power - via a method that requires no skill - is a nightmare. You can potentially solve that nightmare without removing the grinding, via some of the methods discussed near the beginning of the topic, but those methods will have a major impact on the game that you might not like the results of. In other words, unlimited grinding to become as strong as you can possibly imagine is fine for some games, but not others.

Me? I don't like it.

It cheapens the game.

I like feeling like I actually beat the game, rather than feeling like I simply finished it.

If the game allows anyone at all to beat the hardest enemies in the game with absolutely zero skill, I'm going to lose my motivation to play.

Like I said, there are games where it fits. Cathartic, relaxing games that are not meant to be any sort of challenge whatsoever. RPGs that require only time and not skill, that you complete by walking back and forth mashing A until the game beats itself. Games you can sit on the couch half-awake and totally zone out as you play. I understand the appeal. But you can't say that all RPGs should be like that. It's ridiculous.

Different games appeal to different drives within the player. Some appeal to the player's desire to experience a fantasy. Some appeal to their desire to hear a story. Some appeal to their desire to overcome a challenge. Some appeal to their desire to relax and unwind. Some games are about teamwork, and some are about competition. Some are about adrenaline, and some are about a feeling of mastery. Some are about enjoying art, and some are about experiencing emotions.

Once you've figured out what your game is trying to do, choosing what systems to use becomes a lot easier. Most games, if not all, perform several of the above functions. But you can't expect a game to perform all of them. Especially an indie game. AAA games try to give themselves mass appeal by doing as many of those things as possible; if you were to suggest that they have a tendency to become bloated and full of tacked-on, half-hearted features as a result, you wouldn't be wrong.

GRS: Solid compromise would be to keep doing what you're doing with the cash, and sell most equipment in shops like that, but make a lot of the good/interesting equipment not be buyable with cash at all. That stuff has to be obtained other ways. Treasure chests or 100% drops from bosses would accomplish about the same thing for equipment as your one-time quest rewards accomplish for experience points. If your game is very nonlinear, a crafting system would also do the trick, requiring the player to visit multiple areas before he can get a certain piece of equipment.

crafting systems that exist as simply gating content until you've reached area x (rogue galaxy i'm looking at you) are horrible and should not exist compared to crafting systems that evolve as you move throughout the game but always allow lots of actual crafting at every stage of the game (atelier iris, maybe mana khemia? i haven't played mk. grandia 3's spell crafting is very rewarding all the way throughout)

re: level caps, my big games that i never finish expect you to hit L99 around 85% of the way through the game. the final boss is also always THE FINAL CHALLENGE because post-game content makes me sick