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ARE YOU AN “ITEM HOARDER?”
Posts
Crystalgate
694
Crystalgate
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CloseI used to hoard items and not use them until the last boss, but I eventually stopped doing it. I've learned that great items are usually better early game, late game I tend to have more options anyway. For example, a Megalixir type item is no longer impressive when you have a good multi-target healing magic and equipment that reduces MP cost by half.
I think Final Fantasy 3 did it right with limited Phoenix Down. The only way to obtain it was from chests, or rare monster drops. When your healer went down in a battle, or if you don't have Raise yet, you need to decide whether you can find a revival spot (Not an Inn, but a pot or body of water that somehow revives the dead) without a healer, and whether or not it is worth it to have the healer miss out on the experience. Less useful late in the game, but up until you have the ability to cast Raise 15 or so times, it's a difficult decision. The same goes with Elixirs later in the game, where you could be in the middle of a dungeon, and desperately need your MP restored. Can you make it out? If you have Teleport, sure, but if not, you need to use it.
Disgaea did it pretty well, as well as the early Fire Emblem games. You could only bring so many items into battle, and could only purchase them at certain times. In Disgaea it was between levels, and in earlier Fire Emblem games it was during a battle at shops on the current map, with later ones using the between-levels format. Weapon degradation in Fire Emblem also affected money and inventory management. It turned into "Can my tank make it through the level with just one spear, or does he need two? Will the healer need more than one Mend? How many Vulneraries will my mage need?" Of course those two game aren't typical RPGs, being story-driven strategy games.
Disgaea did it pretty well, as well as the early Fire Emblem games. You could only bring so many items into battle, and could only purchase them at certain times. In Disgaea it was between levels, and in earlier Fire Emblem games it was during a battle at shops on the current map, with later ones using the between-levels format. Weapon degradation in Fire Emblem also affected money and inventory management. It turned into "Can my tank make it through the level with just one spear, or does he need two? Will the healer need more than one Mend? How many Vulneraries will my mage need?" Of course those two game aren't typical RPGs, being story-driven strategy games.
I hoard items a lot on games but had a friend who was making a game, who tried to take the hoarding out by first limiting to how much of each item you can carry, and then limiting how much different items you can carry in your pack (with the optional extra pack buying function as well as the upgrade pack options) where you have limited character slots, and you have yourself, and 2 main characters, and an additional 4th slot to have an extra character tag along with you once you obtained more than one character.
One of his characters was a sort of scavenger and a merchant build, who you could buy and sell items and such to when then need arises and after ever so often he would have 'new items' or more of a previous item based on how much you walk around via the world map and other locations. Towns, dungeons, what-have-you.
This is because he will "scavenge" the area for items that he can use to make potions and such and Armour/weapons, or the items the player doesn't pick up (and after fights though he doesn't actually get into the fight and help.)
It was a nifty game play function. The items the player will leave or drop, then gets automatically picked up by this merchant that he'll then later sell at discount prices that normal merchants with the same items would sell for higher.
Also to balance it out he had a weight function for gold so that you had to readily balance your over all gold with your over all items.
The same character slot also is a non battle slot for those who are placed in it. IE, a healer could be placed in and given after so many turns a bar builds up inside and outside of battle that would pop up an additional technique called "Healer's Wind" that would heal all members in the party. The bar would have 3 things to fill up, the first section in the bar is Heals only you, the second slot heals all characters and the last section and a total filled up bar heals all members as well as brings back all dead characters on the field back to life. If you use the bar at any time, it'll go back to being empty.
Even a fighter could go in that adds in power boosts for all melee based attacks.
Anyway the original point is I felt it handled item hoarding pretty well by balancing how much of one item and how much over all items (and weight because gold is an item) mixed with a scavenging merchant. Without him you can't really hoard and will basically have to drastically balance your items by prioritizing whether you want to heal, revive, stat boosts and/ or otherwise in battle. He didn't finish the game and last I heard he was working on the field item list where you have a little bit more default room for items outside of battle than you do inside of battle, coupled with the extra backpack space and extra pouches.
I wish he did finish it, because he was going to join here and release it.
One of his characters was a sort of scavenger and a merchant build, who you could buy and sell items and such to when then need arises and after ever so often he would have 'new items' or more of a previous item based on how much you walk around via the world map and other locations. Towns, dungeons, what-have-you.
This is because he will "scavenge" the area for items that he can use to make potions and such and Armour/weapons, or the items the player doesn't pick up (and after fights though he doesn't actually get into the fight and help.)
It was a nifty game play function. The items the player will leave or drop, then gets automatically picked up by this merchant that he'll then later sell at discount prices that normal merchants with the same items would sell for higher.
Also to balance it out he had a weight function for gold so that you had to readily balance your over all gold with your over all items.
The same character slot also is a non battle slot for those who are placed in it. IE, a healer could be placed in and given after so many turns a bar builds up inside and outside of battle that would pop up an additional technique called "Healer's Wind" that would heal all members in the party. The bar would have 3 things to fill up, the first section in the bar is Heals only you, the second slot heals all characters and the last section and a total filled up bar heals all members as well as brings back all dead characters on the field back to life. If you use the bar at any time, it'll go back to being empty.
Even a fighter could go in that adds in power boosts for all melee based attacks.
Anyway the original point is I felt it handled item hoarding pretty well by balancing how much of one item and how much over all items (and weight because gold is an item) mixed with a scavenging merchant. Without him you can't really hoard and will basically have to drastically balance your items by prioritizing whether you want to heal, revive, stat boosts and/ or otherwise in battle. He didn't finish the game and last I heard he was working on the field item list where you have a little bit more default room for items outside of battle than you do inside of battle, coupled with the extra backpack space and extra pouches.
I wish he did finish it, because he was going to join here and release it.
RyaReisender
200
Better not start with equips, there are a whole different story altogether. Flawed game design forces you to basically always keep every equip if you don't have a walkthrough. Because there are games where you need your starter weapon for crafting later on. And it can't be bought!
DBAce9Aura
52
Only in certain games do I do this, but even in those cases it's pretty sparingly due to limited inventory space and/or weight restrictions that certain games have.
I'm actually try not to do this in the very rare chances of actually playing these types of games that I have now because I feel like I could just save some cash for equipment upgrades and have buying restoration consumables be as much of an exception to the rule as possible since you can just find that stuff via treasure chests and random loot drops anyway.
As for using the things, unless it's something like Shining Force where healing units actually gain EXP for doing it, I'm starting to go for the "only when somebody desperately needs to regain lost health" scenario so that it won't feel like much a dragfest when trying to progress through the whole thing.
I'm actually try not to do this in the very rare chances of actually playing these types of games that I have now because I feel like I could just save some cash for equipment upgrades and have buying restoration consumables be as much of an exception to the rule as possible since you can just find that stuff via treasure chests and random loot drops anyway.
As for using the things, unless it's something like Shining Force where healing units actually gain EXP for doing it, I'm starting to go for the "only when somebody desperately needs to regain lost health" scenario so that it won't feel like much a dragfest when trying to progress through the whole thing.
eplipswich
2728
Well, it depends for me. I will only pack an item (usually a potion) to the max if it's cheap, like early-game potions. For the late-game potions, which tend to be more expensive, I will just grab like half or a quarter of the maximum amount. And I will not grind just to get all items to the maximum amount.
As for equipments, I'll only buy what are really necessary.
As for equipments, I'll only buy what are really necessary.
Craze
chaos/louiscyphre sent me a link to this topic with a line like "how is this hard for people" so while i do think it's not difficult to either 1) take items out of your game entirely or 2) make them worthwhile:
ff1/dq1 required items in order to heal effectively due to limited MP/potential lack of white mage in FF1
ff2/dq2 don't exist
ff3 might be even more item-based than ff1, dq3 has the ability to swap your party throughout the entire game -- but only at the tavern, so you couldn't access healing unless you brought items or a priest
er, pilgrim.
well your hero has heals but your hero is probably busy killing
ff4 is the first game in either dominating series to have a character that is 1) always in the party (for the endgame at least) and 2) has healing magic
dq4 has multiple healers at different points but you can make your own party, and items are just pretty good in DQ games in general
eventually you have cristo/kyril and nara/meena full-tiem
kinda like ff4 eventually just handing you rosa and saying FINE HAVE HER
and then in ff5/dq5, you get full customization over your party, so items are naturally more important (if you want them to be) because "uh i need to heal but i have four ninja-rangers"
ff6 then, finally
is where item use breaks down
and everybody just throws items into their game
even though everybody has cur2 anyway
i mean you have terra for most of the first part, who starts with cure, and when you don't have terra you have celes
who has cure
and when you don't have either
you have banon
soooooooooooooooooooooooooo
and mp is barely existent in that game, cast all day mofos
so basically what i'm saying is
-items were really useful
-suddenly items were only there for show
-items are still only there for show in a lot of cases
AS SUCH
i guess i don't blame people for being bad at items
edit: my overall meaning here is "you suck but it's not your fault"
solution: either take items out of your game, or make them able to do things other actions aren't. y'all are going WOW TALES SO INNOVATIVE but it's not just the item cap. you also have to realize that healing spells usually have a cast time, while items are usually instant. so while natalia is prepping that area heal, you can have guy throw an orange gel at anise who's in the red to tide her over until natalia's spells go off. STATERGEE!!! (also remember that tales games are much more frantic than most games, and enemies are constantly attacking you, so healing is actually an on-going process instead of just attack-attack-heal-attack-attack-heal like you find in plenty of turn-based games; it's part of the action, not just a "don't lose" button. as such both items and heal spells are important and, like i outlined above, have individual niches)
quoting myself because lol this topic is going nowhere so let's actually discuss something like why people do this or ways to differentiate items and abilities and why that's important (or the opposite!)
anyway i don't normally item hoard in rpgs, i just use my shit because it's there, but i DO hoard stuff constantly in puzzle games! i play a ton of games on my phone. like... tons. millions. bazillions. okay maybe not that many, but it feels like it sometimes, and i almost never use free boosters i earn from the games (esp. in games where the primary form of monetization/IAPs is boosters). i've been playing pet rescue saga (protip: candy crush and bubble witch are terrible and have much better clones. pet rescue is actually a solid game by king though) and i've used one single booster out of all the ones i've earned, because a level was sooo close to being a three-star win that i figured it was worth it. there are other games where i earn boosters just for playing every day and i still never use them because WHAT IF I NEED THEM LATER but... lol.
rpgs though? use shit when you have it if it's useful. if you can't find times where it's useful, it's
author=Craze
quoting myself because lol this topic is going nowhere so let's actually discuss something like why people do this or ways to differentiate items and abilities and why that's important (or the opposite!)
Yesssssss, analysis and invention of a Better Inventory System!
Let's assume you want your RPG to have strategic battles, where planning, versatility and clever tactics are rewarded. Your inventory system has the potential to be a key part of that! But so many games simple copy-paste FF6's 99x Potions system and be done with it, and depending on your game's design that may very well harm the overall challenge.
Of course, the usefulness of the inventory is tied to the rest of the battle system, but what things can an inventory provide in games?
- A source of above-average choices, limited by stock. EX: The Megalixer should the obvious example here, typically far exceeding player's healing abilities, but rare enough to not abuse recklessly.
- A way of defining a character's role. EX. In Earthbound, I often dumped all my healing items onto Jeff, who has no healing magic and often felt weak in battle. This freed up Ness and Poo to play more offensive roles, because they had to heal less.
- A reason to explore or fight. Items, especially rare ones, can be a great way of motivating or rewarding the player while in the map screen, or when fighting lots of battles.
- A way to strategize. EX. In Paper Mario, you can only bring 10 items at a time, and deciding which to bring can be very useful. In a more difficult game, choosing the right items could be as important as choosing which characters to bring.
- A measurement of attrition. In many older JRPGs (Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy), you lived and died by items - MP was too scarce to rely on and dungeons were long and painful. Using your items wisely often decided success or failure.
Sure, these are some basic ideas but it helps define what we expect from an inventory system, and their potential uses. The problem with near-limitless inventory in games like FFVI or Chrono Trigger is that once you get to the mid-game, you have plenty of healing magic that's often equally as effective as items, and items are plentiful enough that using them wisely isn't necessary. At best, you simply spam potions on everyone after battle until they're full...
If you're designing your dungeons to play with attrition - the idea that you have to complete your task there and get out before you run out of limited resources like items or MP - you have to limit those resources in a meaningful way, something many RPGs forget about this halfway through the game.
Notably, well-designed item systems usually focus on the limited resources of the items within the scope of the current dungeon, not the opportunity cost of using them on a particular turn in battle. What I mean is: in games with interesting inventory systems, items are often the most powerful solution on any given turn, and the only reason you don't always use them is their limited availability. It's a fine limitation when properly balanced, but there's other ways to create strategic limitations with items, too! Consider Jeff's tools in Earthbound: a set of items that give Jeff many different abilities and can be used limitlessly, at the cost of being slightly weaker than other characters' magic and taking up precious inventory space. These create some new, interesting decisions: do you increase Jeff's versatility by giving him more options every battle, or do you increase his raw power by bringing more Bottle Rockets and Large Pizzas? In this sense, Jeff's tools are similar to FF7's Materia - but instead of choosing one Materia over another, you choose an infinitely reusable ability over a really powerful one-use item.
I kinda wanna rant about my own plans for an inventory system in a roguelike JRPG I'm working on but this post is already a million years long and I gotta do work so maybe later :D
In MMORPG or games the have item system. I'm really am an item hoarder I kept a ton of item in my inventory. But I don't sell item. I give item for a player in need anyway.
Like if a player is low on health and he will almost die I immediately give my potions, etc... Or if a player is practically useless inn battle because his/her weapon is broken and have no replacement I give him/her what they need and they can keep it if they want. Quest related item? I have a ton of extra quest item that I give to the player who is doing the same quest as me.
Mostely I'm a item hoarders but not like the one who "If I own it, I OWN IT". I help other player so they can kickstart playing their games than getting ragequit because they cannot handle it. If you see my username well you may be lucky enough for me to give you a rare item but I'm not really active in the MMORPG Community anyway.
Like if a player is low on health and he will almost die I immediately give my potions, etc... Or if a player is practically useless inn battle because his/her weapon is broken and have no replacement I give him/her what they need and they can keep it if they want. Quest related item? I have a ton of extra quest item that I give to the player who is doing the same quest as me.
Mostely I'm a item hoarders but not like the one who "If I own it, I OWN IT". I help other player so they can kickstart playing their games than getting ragequit because they cannot handle it. If you see my username well you may be lucky enough for me to give you a rare item but I'm not really active in the MMORPG Community anyway.
SlashPhoenix
A way of defining a character's role. EX. In Earthbound, I often dumped all my healing items onto Jeff, who has no healing magic and often felt weak in battle. This freed up Ness and Poo to play more offensive roles, because they had to heal less.
Problem found. Solution: Dumb all bottle rockets into Jeffs inventory (and Shield Killer if you actually feel like fighting endgame Starmen). After that give copious amounts of extra bottle rockets to everybody else. Shoot a bottle rocket up everybody's nose and win everything ever. Keeping Jeff's inventory bottle rocket free is like complaining the Fighter can't do shit against undead mobs who can paralyze and plink him to death because you didn't give him the MageRod, the WhiteMage who can't do damage against non-undead because you didn't give 'em Zeus/Thor, or a non-WhiteMage can't heal the party because you tossed the three infinite use healing items.
Craze
solution: either take items out of your game
Sorry Craze but my car's going the other way: In the game I talked about prior with more set inventories for dungeons there are no character abilities that restore lost HP. Damage mitigation and restoring status, sure, but the most HP damage you can take is the sum of your characters and the healing effects of what your inventory is at the time (assuming 100% efficiency). The goal is to ax the "keep HP up" character role and make it something that happens infrequently and at the cost of a turn of damage / mitigation / etc. There's the issue of the player powering through a dungeon to reach the boss with maximum resources by running away from everything that'll have to be addressed but I have some ideas for that; One being undefeated enemies will appear as boss cohorts. I'll see how it goes, maybe it'll all blow up in my face and I trash the whole thing.
Yea but I totally liked giving Jeff healing items because then I can just stuff everyone else up with Magic Pudding and blow it on PK Starstorm and PSI Steaks. I still gave Jeff enough Bottle Rockets to blow them up every turn on the bosses, but having a third (or fourth) person with resurrection is nice.
Versatility!
Versatility!
Versatility is great! Unlimited spell items in FF1 are mostly about improving versatility. EB just isn't a game where you need to plan that kind of stuff out, especially with rolling HP at a constant speed. Final Starman uses PSI Starstorm Ω? Don't care! Keep attacking and you'll win and only lose 50 HP. Now enemy PSI Flash on the other hand 
(but that's what pendents are for)
e: Rolling HP was a cool mechanic though and it'd be neat to see others try and expand on the idea
e: Rolling HP was a cool mechanic though and it'd be neat to see others try and expand on the idea
Kind of. I'm more of an item finder, though I do tend to horde items, too. I like to find every treasure on every map if possible (I will love you a long time if you add some sort of counter for treasures per area - though not as much if it's a case of having to go back at a later date to get said treasures.)
When it comes to battle, though, if it's absolutely necessary, I'll take stock of what I have. If I think I've got enough of an item, I'll use it. If not, I won't. I tend to refuse to use the last of an item unless I absolutely need it and I feel the the battle will end soon. I'll still mourn the loss of said item, though. XP
One of the most annoying things is fighting a boss or battle that seems winnable and using up items, only to find it was unwinnable. I wasted all those items for nothing?! Drives me crazy. Especially if I made the decision to let go of the last of a rare item like a mega-elixir or something. I will reset a game if that happens because frankly? Fuck that shit.
Oh, but when it comes to games like Skyrim or Fallout 3/NV I am the storage queen. Pencil? Might come in handy later. Book? Read it later. Note? Mine now. Iron Dagger? Yoink!
I've been spoiled by the jRPG no-limits inventory (in most cases. There are some games with limitations) and had to relearn not to pick things up. Or make use of my house's unlimited item holding capabilities. (Which I have~)
One thing I loved was Breath of Fire II (like you didn't see that one coming XP ) where you had an item limit in both the bank and your inventory, but you could hold any number of items - that is, you could buy over 100 Herbs and the like if you so wished, due to them stacking in groups of 9. It added a twist to your inventory. Also, like Dark Cloud and games where you upgrade your holding space.
When it comes to designing I like to make items plentiful and encourage their use in battle. If that means you die if you don't use them, so be it. I will give items that deal damage and make enemies that are weak against said items only, or give healing items that will have multiple uses (who drinks a whole jug of milk by themselves anyway?) so that the player doesn't have to worry about not having enough items. (Think of it - more uses out of an item erases the whole 99 item cap. If you have 99 potions and each gives you three uses, that gives you almost 300 potions. You don't have to worry about running out that much.)
Take away healing spells and just assign items to that. Make item usage faster than spells so that they're more useful - healing straight off the bat as opposed to waiting. Add extra beneficial effects - regeneration or health bonuses, immunisation against certain status ailments, small buffs.
That's how I roll~ If you still die on a monster, that's your fucking mistake, rookie.
When it comes to battle, though, if it's absolutely necessary, I'll take stock of what I have. If I think I've got enough of an item, I'll use it. If not, I won't. I tend to refuse to use the last of an item unless I absolutely need it and I feel the the battle will end soon. I'll still mourn the loss of said item, though. XP
One of the most annoying things is fighting a boss or battle that seems winnable and using up items, only to find it was unwinnable. I wasted all those items for nothing?! Drives me crazy. Especially if I made the decision to let go of the last of a rare item like a mega-elixir or something. I will reset a game if that happens because frankly? Fuck that shit.
Oh, but when it comes to games like Skyrim or Fallout 3/NV I am the storage queen. Pencil? Might come in handy later. Book? Read it later. Note? Mine now. Iron Dagger? Yoink!
I've been spoiled by the jRPG no-limits inventory (in most cases. There are some games with limitations) and had to relearn not to pick things up. Or make use of my house's unlimited item holding capabilities. (Which I have~)
One thing I loved was Breath of Fire II (like you didn't see that one coming XP ) where you had an item limit in both the bank and your inventory, but you could hold any number of items - that is, you could buy over 100 Herbs and the like if you so wished, due to them stacking in groups of 9. It added a twist to your inventory. Also, like Dark Cloud and games where you upgrade your holding space.
When it comes to designing I like to make items plentiful and encourage their use in battle. If that means you die if you don't use them, so be it. I will give items that deal damage and make enemies that are weak against said items only, or give healing items that will have multiple uses (who drinks a whole jug of milk by themselves anyway?) so that the player doesn't have to worry about not having enough items. (Think of it - more uses out of an item erases the whole 99 item cap. If you have 99 potions and each gives you three uses, that gives you almost 300 potions. You don't have to worry about running out that much.)
Take away healing spells and just assign items to that. Make item usage faster than spells so that they're more useful - healing straight off the bat as opposed to waiting. Add extra beneficial effects - regeneration or health bonuses, immunisation against certain status ailments, small buffs.
That's how I roll~ If you still die on a monster, that's your fucking mistake, rookie.
