HOW TO ADD FUN TO GRINDING?

Only slightly related but it's funny how even Blizzard indirectly implies that grinding in WoW is boring: http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/01/01/world-of-warcraft-survey-asks-how-much-would-you-pay/

author=Zachary_Braun
I thought grinding and increasing the level of the character was the whole point of World of Warcraft.

It absolutely is. Then you realize the bar will constantly be being raised and that past epics don't mean anything because the buyable greens a couple of levels from now are as good if not better than what you've worked so hard to get, killing the point of PVP and raids, and you lose your motivation to buy the next expansion pack since you've become disillusioned to the monotony and turn your eye away from the monitor long enough to realize how empty your wallet is getting. Until then, if you're someone like me, you'll do thousands of quests just because they're there and will run instances you wouldn't normally do just for the achievements.


Get to work.

author=RyaReisender
And then... they are like "We have considered your feedback on how grinding is boring and stuff and found a solution: Pay $30 to start with a max level character right away!"

The other solution, in their case, being a massive rework of a large portion of the existing game. A solution which they previously tried to do and were widely panned for because, while the update was pretty good in some places, the work was done at the expense of end game content - which fell flat on its face because they didn't realize how much work they'd really bitten off in their world update.

They have a new solution to leveling for the new expansion - making it story based, instead of grinding every single quest in existence, you do the main story for a much quicker paced leveling experience than what's existed previously. The problem is, they're now left with the old material they have to figure out what to do with. There's people (myself included) who're fine with going through the 90 levels as they currently exist. There are others who find it boring. The solution of a "buy your way to level X (not max level)," while not the best, lets both sides have a piece: find it boring, you can skip it, you're fine with it, you can do it as is. It also doesn't require them to spend massive manhours redoing so much content again (since they've already proven they have the tech to create a character at any level they want).

author=LockeZ
Amusingly, since it's a subscription-based game that costs $15/month, and leveling to 90 probably takes about two months, they're making the same amount of money whether you pay for the levels or not.

It's a trap though. The grinding doesn't end at max level in World of Warcraft. It starts there.

That's kind of their thoughts, though, especially with new players: the actual game starts at max level. If you end up spending so much time slogging through the leveling process (which, as a new player, won't be as quick as a veteran, who knows where everything is and generally how to play) that you don't want to finish it, they've lost a sub before you ever get to the meat of the game.

I actually wrote the other part of this comment first, but since this part actually addresses the topic question of the thread, I might as well put it on top.

I'd suggest adding a framework to the grinding which makes it feel like you're accomplishing something else in-story aside from grinding, in order to give the activity more of a sense of significance.

Here's an idea of my own for illustration. I'd like to see a game where, rather than getting money from killing ordinary enemies, your party gets money from delivering packages from one city to another. Since trips of any significant length tend to result in encounters with monsters, it's too dangerous for most people to travel casually between cities, so post is reliant on hardened warriors for delivery. Some delivery requests are scripted and appear only once at a specific time and place, but other deliveries are randomly generated on a continuing basis, so you can travel back and forth between cities carrying mail in order to earn money, and gain extra experience on the side.

Of course, different contexts call for different frameworks, but it should usually be possible to develop some sort of in-story significance to the activity of wandering around killing lots of stuff, so it doesn't feel so much like you're doing it for the hell of it.

(If anyone wants to use the specific idea I described above, I have far too many such ideas to get possessive of any particular one, but please let me know you're interested in using it.)

author=LockeZ
I can believe there are people out there who legitimately enjoy grinding and repetition. What they're looking for in a game isn't excitement or challenge or discovery, it's catharsis. They want to chill out and do something brainless and effortless.

Speaking as a player who often does enjoy grinding, while I also enjoy excitement and challenge and discovery in other elements of the game, it's true that there's a degree of catharsis involved, but I think there's more to it than that. I grind in video games for pretty much the same reason I work out in real life. If you go to a gym, you can spend substantial periods of time moving pieces of metal with numbers on them up and down, over and over, and if you keep it up long enough, you can move bigger numbers, or move the same numbers more times. It's a very simple way to feel like you've accomplished something. Afterwards, other people may admire your ability to move heavy objects, or the appearance of your muscles, and it reinforces your sense that you have something to feel proud about.

Grinding in video games accomplishes something very similar. You engage in a repetitive activity, become able to do something you couldn't do before, and it gives you something to feel proud about. Sure, the "you" which gains new capabilities might be virtual, and so one might argue that they shouldn't carry that sort of significance, but if we never ascribed significance to the actions of these virtual characters, we probably wouldn't play video games at all.

It's not just that putting in time offers returns in growth. It's easy to implement systems where the characters get stronger while eliminating grinding entirely. It's that grinding offers an opportunity to exceed expecations, even if only the implicit expectations of the game designers.

I wouldn't fault anyone who doesn't like doing it, but I tend to miss it when it's gone.

author=LockeZ
Amusingly, since it's a subscription-based game that costs $15/month, and leveling to 90 probably takes about two months, they're making the same amount of money whether you pay for the levels or not.

It's a trap though. The grinding doesn't end at max level in World of Warcraft. It starts there.

Really, it depends how much effort you've already put into making alts, as to how long it'll take you to get to level 90. If you have all of the heirloom gear, you'll be getting levels 25% faster than someone who doesn't, not to mention the added bonus of not having to worry about upgrading your crappy levelling junk (or most of it anyway).
Also, if you're really into it, you can use their ridiculously overpowered "recruit-a-friend" on yourself, and dual box a character to almost max level (I think 85 right now) at 300% normal speed, not counting the above heirlooms.

Even without those, I know people who can power level an alt up to max level in only ~20 hours played, and let's face it, if you're playing a game for less than 20 hours in two months, you shouldn't be playing a subscription game in the first place.

Wow nice read and given me lots to think about.
But I will leave my one thought on grinding.
Apart from action games like Phantasy star portable I hate grinding as the only reward it offers is higher levels and you always know how many fights it will take to level up by checking the characters stats. And with most games higher levels only mean higher stats which seems hardly worth it.
In Final Fantasy Legend 2 I loved grinding(If I had mutants in my party) because you never know what ability they would learn or when they would learn it.
The end of every battle was like opening a treasure chest(I could almost hear the treasure chest music from zelda :P )
For me the battle system in FFL2 was almost like a world to explore itself.
Ever try giving a human a mana potion? gives him the mana stat and he can cast spells(only books, he never gained abilities) and then even starts leveling up in mana.
The battle system having so much stuff and not having everything explained meant that I had to explore all the options on my own and that made grinding fun.

Just my thought on grinding on a menu based/turn based battle system

author=RyaReisender
On that note, I like it when level up always has a noticable improvement.

Often RPGs are so that leveling up is quite significant early on (HP 30->45, ATK 8->12, aka 50% increase) but loses significance towards the end (HP 9000->9090, ATK 300->303, aka 1% increase). That makes it often hardly noticable. Because whether you hit that 100 def kraken boss for 200 damage or 203 damage doesn't really matter much.

Better is if a single level higher is always a significant difference. So you actually feel the improvement.

That also depends on how many levels there are in the game, and how quickly you gain them. If you gain a level in less than five easy battles, then that 3 ATK increase is going to be a 30 ATK increase in a few minutes. On the other hand, if it takes 50 battles to level up, it's pretty worthless unless you learn some powerful skill or gain enough skill points to get one. A lot of newer games in the Tales series, for example, have you leveling up in 10-12 battles at level 38 (Around mid-game, or later mid-game). Although the base stat increases are pretty low, you earn skill points on leveling up that let you unlock things like "P. ATK +30", "HP +108", "Tidal Wave", "Action Points +1", etc. Or, in Disgaea, you can gain 80 levels from killing one strong enemy, which seems like a lot until you realize there are 9999 levels per character.

I'm not a fan of grinding for stuff, but I've done my fair share of grinding in MMOs and RPGs. I don't think I'd ever grind in an RPG Maker game, though. At least not more than a few extra battles here and there. But in my opinion grinding can be okay if there are plenty of cool rewards that are all obtainable within reasonable time-frames. For example if I can get a cool and stronger weapon by killing mobs for 5-10 minutes, I'd probably go for it. The key-word though, is cool. If it ain't cool, I ain't grinding for it. If it's just a boring +3 upgrade, screw that.
Seoond, the combat and presentation in general should be top quality. Battles must go fast, and be visually pleasing. Flashy special effects and nice looking animations will certainly help. A catchy battle theme, and good use of sound effects, too. Because if your battles are just copy/paste RTP and enemies have health bars from here to Tokyo, I'm not grinding in your game any time soon.
Finally, what can also help to motivate is optional content that is a bit above the average level. Like an optional boss that's guarding treasure, but requires some grinding to beat if you haven't done any grinding prior to that.