MALAYSIA AIRLINES BOEING CRASH IN UKRAINE

Putin is ex-KGB. These people tend to long for the days of the Berlin wall, when a person having an intellectual conversation over dinner about a social system other than communism could end up spending the rest of his life in prison.

Here is something that is important to this discussion: Ukraine is an ally of the United States. With all of the civil unrest in former Soviet states, it's important to note this happens in a country that is allied with the U. S. It won't be the last. If you've been reading about Russia in the media over the last few years, you would notice the following:

1. Putin threatened to launch missile strikes on all U. S. bases located in countries that shared a border with Russia. These bases were built in response to Russia's sudden Cold War regression. The bases were intended to stop nuclear weapons launched from Russia towards the U. S.

2. Putin reversed the joint decision with the U. S. to dismantle our mutual nuclear arsenals. The Nunn-Luger Threat Reduction Program, which lasted for 20 years, and was highly successful, saw the dismantling of the Soviet nuclear arsenal, as well as the U. S. dismantling its own nuclear arsenal. Russia has since resumed nuclear buildup.

3. Putin signed a bill outlawing U. S. adoptions of Russian children in response to the incident in which a child was sent back to Russia alone on an airplane.

4. Russia and China blocked the U. N. International Court from investigating war crimes in Syria.

By the way, in case you haven't read, the Huffington Post is reporting that the Pro-Russian rebel leader is affirming that Pro-Russian Separatists shot down the plane, claiming the pilot was to blame for flying over Ukraine.

Getting back to what I was saying, the U. S. balked on each of Russia's pushes. Putin is NOT a man of peace. His actions demonstrate that he senses weakness in U. S. leadership. Obama's constant failure to stand firm against Putin might well be the act of man interested only in peace, but to a warrior like Putin, whose interest is not in peace, but in imperial conquest, our reticence is his opportunity restore the mighty Soviet state. It is my opinion that Putin fancies himself another Stalin and longs for that kind of power and impact on history.

I don't like doing individual quote'n'rebuts, but my work schedule won't let me hang around, so...

@Linkis

Linkis
"No one should fault an airline for flying over the conflict zone, because the airspace above 32,000 feet was an open corridor for air traffic"

roflcopter. Read the article that quote comes from. Jet Airways & Air India publicly denied flying over the war zone, but immediately started back pedaling when their lying to customers was exposed. That quote is a piddly PR excuse. It's not even related to this discussion.

Linkis
and the plane shot down was at 33,000ft. I guess mostly I'm saying no one but a trained person could use that weapon correctly so it was either a Russian or a separatist trained by Russia.

But it couldn't have been a Ukrainian soldier? Is the Ukrainian military a bunch of bumpkins?
That could explain why the separatists, who actually were non-military, are kicking their ass.
I'm of the opinion that the plane was brought down with an AAM launched from a fighter jet, but that's just me hypothesizing.

Linkis
What you said means any group of Americans in a foreign country can claim a piece of that country for themselves and expect President Obama to send in the Marines to back them up.

A better analogy would be if Kentucky, after unsuccessfully being harassed into joining the Confederacy, petitioned the Union for assistance.
Remember that Ukraine is a former Soviet state, full of Russian nationals. Also remember that the Ukrainian government is full of whackos. During their last election, the #2 contender for the presidency wanted to kill ethnic Russian people with nuclear weapons.


@pianotm
You're the last person I thought I'd see adopting an anti-Putin stance.
Please don't get offended, but...

pianotm
Here is something that is important to this discussion: Ukraine is an ally of the United States.

No, they're not. Don't lie.

pianotm
1. Putin threatened to launch missile strikes on all U. S. bases located in countries that shared a border with Russia. These bases were built in response to Russia's sudden Cold War regression. The bases were intended to stop nuclear weapons launched from Russia towards the U. S.

Putin's threat was to in response to NATO building "anti-missile defense systems" literally all along their border.
Do you know the difference between missiles that target other missiles and missiles that target planes, infrastructure, cities, etc? All it is is the targeting software.
Have you ever heard of the Cuban Missile Crisis?

pianotm
2. Putin reversed the joint decision with the U. S. to dismantle our mutual nuclear arsenals. The Nunn-Luger Threat Reduction Program, which lasted for 20 years, and was highly successful, saw the dismantling of the Soviet nuclear arsenal, as well as the U. S. dismantling its own nuclear arsenal. Russia has since resumed nuclear buildup.

He didn't "reverse" anything. It expired, which is perfectly legal.
When it came up for renewal, one of Russia's conditions was that NATO stop building this stupid missile "defense" system. Obama refused. Nunn-Lugar ended.
At least we have MNEPR, for all those silly people who believe WMDs will eventually cease to exist.

pianotm
By the way, in case you haven't read, the Huffington Post is reporting that the Pro-Russian rebel leader is affirming that Pro-Russian Separatists shot down the plane, claiming the pilot was to blame for flying over Ukraine.

Link, please.
My search comes up with a completely different story from the Pro-Russian rebel leader.

pianotm
...but to a warrior like Putin, whose interest is not in peace, but in imperial conquest...

Was this a joke? A statement made in err? Do you even know what Imperialism looks like?
Modern colonialism involves economically decimating a country so that it's national government can be bankrupted, it's people driven into immiseration, it's wealth looted, and it's resources privatized. Russia has done nothing of the sort in the last 30 years. Meanwhile, where HAVE we seen it?
Well, there was when Washington supported violent protests that destabilized Ukraine's democratically elected government.
There was the rushed election where agreeable puppet candidates were so rare, one of them had to be released from prison to run for the presidency.
And of course, no sooner does the new president come in, than he embraces IMF economic reforms in exchange for a paltry $17 billion.

Well most people believe that if it's in the internet, then it's true. It's hard to discern what is true and what is false nowadays, because of the possibility of the government hiding secrets about everything. I say 'possibility' because it is also possible that they're telling the truth.

I guess those of us uninvolved to the issue will know little about what really is happening there.


UNRELATED, AGAIN: Linkis, I was talking about 'soccer' *winces in pain*. And there was a guy named Vladimir, and he's a winger.

I have no doubts about the investigators. My doubts lie on the media. I wonder just how much the media is going to bend the truth this time...

author=Jude
This is probably false. The launch site and trajectory are known. It's possible for the Ukraine to commandeer it, but improbable without the rebels knowing about it and telling the world.

Apologies in advance if I sound stubborn, but I'm generally predisposed towards disbelief of anything western media says when it comes to geopolitics.
And since the satellite trajectory was released by the US, I'm inclined to say it's fake. It wouldn't surprise me if new evidence turns up within the week that forces the US to call it's data "a miscalculation" or some similar backpedaling.

author=Jeroen_Sol
We certainly can't trust the word of the Ukranian government, but we can trust the international investigation

"International" generally means the UN, which means western influence.
Everybody's on a team. Terms like "independent" and "international" are just buzzwords.
And seriously. There are wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine, Libya, Syria, and Ukraine. The UN's failures speak for it's credibility.

author=turkeyDawg
Is this actually something that's frowned upon? I mean, it makes a lot more sense to me than just dump-quoting entire walls of text.

The only thing is, it gets out of hand fast. One big paragraph begets 3 quotes, which beget 5 quotes, which beget 9 quotes, and so forth. I've seen it become nearly uncountable, and I know how daunting just 5 or 6 can be.

author=Linkis
There is not going to be a world war over this.

We can't say that with full confidence.
Remember that Otto Von Bismarck said "If there is another war in Europe, it will come out of some damn silly thing in the Balkans." Sure enough, WW1 erupted out of some goofy territory disputes which culminated in an assassination setting off a gajillion mutual protection pacts. In the Balkans, no less.
Here we are, two nuclear super powers, dicking each other around over some dopey country nobody with a net worth less than $1 billion in the western hemisphere gives two shits about.

But I figure if Putin really wanted to pull off the gloves and let the western world eat cake, he'd just dump US treasuries, nationalize the Russian central bank, and cancel all debt owed to US banks. Our financial system is in the middle of a breakdown crisis, and that would probably cause enough of a panic run to slit our throats.

author=Dyhalto
Apologies in advance if I sound stubborn, but I'm generally predisposed towards disbelief of anything western media says when it comes to geopolitics.
And since the satellite trajectory was released by the US, I'm inclined to say it's fake. It wouldn't surprise me if new evidence turns up within the week that forces the US to call it's data "a miscalculation" or some similar backpedaling.

It's possible, but this sort of intel is difficult to fake since it's based on hard data that's collected and reported within minutes, and not particularly open to interpretation. The second batch of information the US released is actually easier to twist to match your goals, but for whatever reason people think pictures are more conclusive.

author=Jeroen_Sol
Dyhalto, I mean no disrespect, but you seem to be generalizing 'The West'.

The big spheres of war, economics and information (media/internet) encompass all western nations (north america & europe). There are some minute differences, like how Sweden condemns Israel's subjugation of Palestine while Canada's government fully supports it, but those can be chalked up to internal election politics and demagogy. In the end, we all share the same enemies, the same propensity to allow the primacy of business interest over the common good, and generally share the same values.

author=Jude
It's been a week. Do you want another week?

I said I wouldn't be surprised if, not it shall be.

If you want concrete predictions to follow, try listening to the Alex Jones show. I have no use for him or any of his guests, but if that's the kind of stuff you like, then, meh.