HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT ONLY ONE GENDER AS PLAYABLE CHARACTERS

Sorry, that wasn't my intention. I mean, if you're trying to deliver a certain aesthetic, then build a cast that delivers it, and don't take no gruff from no one, whether they're whining about representation or historical accuracy or anything else. I guess that's the only bit that really matters. Stop listening to people on the internet who want to tell you what kinds of stories are worth telling, and tell your fucking story. Sometimes that story will be Call of Duty, sometimes it will be Madoka Magica, and sometimes it will be Captain Planet or even Ranma 1/2.

e: you know, I've had a lot of bad ideas, and I hope to have many more -- but I just don't have the mind to invite this much nonsense onto myself at the moment. I liked this thread much better before the old guard swept in.

author=mawk
infantry is hardly the only aspect of an army, and it's hardly the only one that sees combat -- and the US military is not the model the rest are molded from, either! when there are records of female flying aces dating back to the 1940s, women leading combat units, captaining warships, using guerrilla tactics, and what else have you, a statement like that comes off very poorly-phrased! women have been an aspect of more contemporary militaries than you might assume, and more and more evidence is being uncovered to reveal their presence in ancient warfare as well.

the relative absence of women in history is often entirely manufactured, and recent history is no exception. consider your preconceptions carefully -- and especially consider the role your preconceptions play in your own worldbuilding.

it's frustrating to me that this is the one aspect of 'historical accuracy' that people are willing to go down to the wire for, even in cases where it's debatable or outright false. Oda Nobunaga has steam-powered robots? cool, this can pass. women occupy a large military role? well, HOLD UP NOW.

(we're getting sidetracked here, but I think this is a really good example of what I was talking about earlier re: people expecting women to justify their place in a narrative to a larger degree than men)

^^^^
This!

I was a member of the Pendragon Society before it finally closed its doors, and there was a significant number of us that really took the historical societies to task for not reporting historical data concerning women in battle throughout history. There are even medieval romances about a daughter of Arthur fought and trained in secret as a knight. Whether Arthur even existed, let alone had children may be largely debatable doesn't underscore the fact that this character exists in at least two romances dating back to the 1100s, clearly demonstrating that the idea of women in battle was not an impossible concept.

For 3000 years, Celtic worshipers have prayed to the goddess Brigida before going into battle. Even Christians pay her homage, even though most may not realize it (Saint Brigit of Kildare?). And throughout the Celtic world, there was never a ban on women serving in the army until Christian and traditional Roman and Anglo-Saxon taboos became vogue. While it's true that, among Vikings, men were only allowed to serve in infantry, women were trained in combat and expected to defend the homeland and they held the same respect and rank as their male counterparts.

I also agree with Mawk that historical accuracy shouldn't be a preclusion to anything (least of all women in combat, as real historical accuracy clearly demonstrates) in a fictional story, let alone a video game. We've seen Abraham Lincoln employ android secret agents (The Amazing Screw On Head). The Nazi's had advanced particle weapons (Captain America). If you do want to make an historically accurate game involving warfare, keep in mind that women have always been on the frontlines in large numbers, whether their comrades knew it or not.

If you want amazing history, here's one for you. In 1822, Charles Babbage, designed the "Difference Engine". Having been inspired by the calculating machines of the 1500s and 1600s, this room size device was made of thin metal panels with information on each of them, in whole designed to run complex equations so that a person, using a keyboard user interface could insert commands, and the machine could remember and organize them in sequence. Sound like a computer? That's because that's exactly what it is. Though never built in his lifetime (Queen Victoria wanted to, but balked at the price, which was several million dollars, NOT adjusted for inflation), the London Science Museum put his design to the test in 1989 and discovered that it not only worked, but had a 500 megabyte memory. 1822; for realz.

Just because we accept history for what it is, don't think that's what it really was. In junior high, nobody believed me when I told them the jet engine was invented in the 1300s, not even the teacher, but back then, we didn't have the internet, and the online community was for only a few people with the money for big computer setups, so I had the get the book from the library for them, and they still denied it.

The truth about the past is not found in history books.

Don't worry about whether or not it should be used. Just use it and fuck everyone.

I can live with that. : )

i know i'm not going to get a triple a game that's all or mostly or even an equal number of women that doesn't treat the women like sex objects

What is your definition of Triple-A here?

give me women interacting with other women in ways that aren't shitty and tropey and pitting them against each other, okay?

Replace "women" with "men" in that sentence and you're asking for something no more or less IMPOSSIBLE. Why impossible? Because of how amazingly, unbelievably BROAD tropes as a concept are. They are what fiction is made of.

You are asking for fiction that is not made of the ingredients of fiction. Like chicken-free chicken, that is impossible. The absence of that impossible thing is in no way a problem.

^^^^^^^^^
And this!

author=mawk
you seriously think, in this discussion about gender portrayal and storytelling cliches, that someone is coming out against using any storytelling mechanics at all to depict a female character? it's pretty damn clear what 'tropiness' means in this context.

If this was directed at me...NO, that's not what I think. I simply agree that a good writer would be honest with his or her characterizations.

it's pretty damn clear what 'tropiness' means in this context.

It's about as clear as mud, because "tropey" is not a real fucking word.

author=Housekeeping
My perspective's always been that video game writing generally sucks and that if we address that problem, the problems with representation will probably work themselves out, anyway. A writer worth their salt wouldn't have a character as a sex object or power fantasy; they'd treat them as human beings.

This. So much this.

People gravitate towards those old tropes because they're easy and they are lazy (or suck at writing. Or have no "normal" social interactions with which to base writing on).

As people get better at writing, and we stop employing bad writers to write our games, things will improve and we will see less one-dimensional game characters, whether it's "dumb sexy blonde #112234" or "Grimdark serious soldier beefcake guy #33345"

Hell, a good writer can even take those archetypes and make something good out of them! Just look at Arkhail from "Of Orcs and Men". Looks like a typical "big beefcake super serious warrior" guy, but you soon see he's actually pretty wise, and while he's not really cunning, he's FAR from stupid. I thought I would hate him, but he ended up being my favourite character by far.

Sadly, when you're working on a one-man team, you're probably only thinking critically about the parts of the game you care about. You're relying on tropes, overused cliches, and copycatting for (at least some of) the parts you aren't really that into. This is definitely a method that's worth trying to avoid, you should try to make every aspect of your game better! But people have limits.

It's like using the RTP graphics, or ripped Final Fantasy music. You're taking a piece of your game from something else. It's not inherently bad, but it's usually not good, if the reason you're doing it is because you don't really care. But hey, if you don't really care, then it doesn't matter if it's not good.