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OF GAMES, REPRESENTATION, AND WOMEN'S CHEEKBONES
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NeverSilent
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Closeauthor=Kylaila
Just to add to you, Neversilent.
Aside from your portrayel and the fact that issues are interesting, I for one especially enjoy stories not only portraying problems, but also focusing on coping and dealing with them. I find stories about recovery and growing stronger (not all problems have to be experienced grimly) much more uplifting than any wish fulfillment.
Wish fulfillment is a nice distraction, no question there. But variety is the spice of life, as they say.
Yes! This so much! If you're going the route of wish fulfilment, then why not use it to depict actual counteractions against those issues? They don't even necessarily have to be successful - just showing that these problems exist and that there will be people who suffer under them and want to resist them seems much more powerful to me than pretending those issues never existed in the first place. You don't have to become depressed first in order to become aware of something.
author=WetMattos
Which, in turn, plays in what i've said before: it's not enough to make us 'normal' in the common narrative.
I'm sorry, but, why not? Or am I perhaps misunderstanding you here?
As far as I can see, it's a mistake to try and define your own identity by distancing yourself from "the other" or "the normal," respectively. We are all individuals, and we should find ourselves through deciding what we are, not through deciding what we are not. No matter how much this argumentation may sound like a fallacy to you, we all are humans in the end.
However, I do not believe in "the normal" in the normative sense (i.e. trying to tell people what they should or should not be like). (It's acategory that, in practice, pretty much nobody fits into anyway.) Where we might agree, depending on how I read your post, is that it is wrong to try and change those considered "other" so that they fit the category of "normal" - instead, we need to change the category of the "normal" so that we all fit into it.
Nobody should ever feel like they have to take the "victim role" to define themselves, or that they have to be "different" for the sake of being "different." I think what's most important is to make sure that unless they really are a threat to their fellow humans or living beings, we cast nobody out because of who they are. It's a utopian goal, of course, but I think it's worth trying to get there step by step.
author=Kylaila
But not sure what you mean with the "it isn't seen as an interesting narrative" .. why would it not be interesting? Coping with problems is by no means an easy feast. Nor do you just magically feel better afterwards (as it happens so often in games, though)
Seeing shifts in thinking and behavior patterns are interesting to observe, at least to me.
Oh. I can see where i get confusing. I've said earlier that it's not enough to put marginalized characters in our already common narratives, it's important to change the narratives as well. Currently, narratives about coping aren't perceived as interesting and worthy of pursuing, in contrast with wish fulfillment, for example. In that sense, making a game about recovery and coping is an way to address the common narratives.
One that i find particularly subversive, btw.
@NeverSilent, to argue we are all humans isn't fallacious. But, the way by which this is raised in discussions is often a way of derailing.
Gonna get real personal here. Very often, my transness make me feel like a monster. The very way by which my transness is culturally understood suggests that i'm not worthy of being regarded as human. I'm actually more comfortable with narratives in which i exist without any other human beings around than else. Of course, one can argue this is a very particular feeling, but what we've managed to identify is that it's actually very common among people who are marginalized. That's because part of the dynamics of marginalization involve the dehumanization of people, that is, the creation of a cultural narrative that reduces their values as human beings. Racial epithets often are a manifestation of this, for example, as are sexist ones. Telling me that 'we are all humans' erases my issues, and if you create a world that functions exactly like ours, or close enough in their systems, but there i'm accepted and normal when i know that these systems are what prevents that from happening, i'm gonna get really uncomfortable.
So, yeah, when you say that we shouldn't fit people into normality, but rather address how 'normal' can include them, that's precisely my concern.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
At first I looked at the models and couldn't tell much of a difference. I sort of caught the vibe that this was going to be another one of those "sexy characters" things, but I thought for sure that the "new" was going to be the problem. Boy was I wrong.
"She's supposed to be young, sexy, and good with a sword/ruler!" She's experienced in the art of fencing. I think it's perfectly excusable if she isn't a "spring chicken". But nah, gotta have that eye candy, brah.
If anything, I like her more now because there's a subtle layer of "my blade is my life and I'm very good at what I do". She's not a novice, she's a professional.
"She's supposed to be young, sexy, and good with a sword/ruler!" She's experienced in the art of fencing. I think it's perfectly excusable if she isn't a "spring chicken". But nah, gotta have that eye candy, brah.
If anything, I like her more now because there's a subtle layer of "my blade is my life and I'm very good at what I do". She's not a novice, she's a professional.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
The funny thing is, the new design would've been considered a hot babe in the 40s.
ETA:
Again, you have the option to not engage these people. In fact, it makes life a lot easier to recognise that you'll get nowhere with them, ignore their posts, and engage in other, more fruitful lines of discussion.
It's not that I didn't get the symbolism, I just felt that it was pretentiously handled, and not a new message. The game was just banal to me, and my reaction to its attempt at lessons of life was annoyance at the game creator for jerking me around. Possibly if I were more inclined to be drawn into its world, it would work better, but for me, I was just getting flashbacks of twee Homestuck fans.
It's cool that it meant so much to you; I just didn't feel like it did a great job communicating anything to me, someone without that lived experience.
ETA:
author=WetMattos
@sooz
Yeah, and no. As in, yup, i do actually agree with most of what you've been pointing out. That said, someone's stance when entering the conversation will determine how i play it out. And i have a very low tolerance for some very specific things - the one about not understanding and yet trying to control the discourse, for example, is a pet peeve.
Again, you have the option to not engage these people. In fact, it makes life a lot easier to recognise that you'll get nowhere with them, ignore their posts, and engage in other, more fruitful lines of discussion.
That aside, did you read the article on that porpentine game? I'm under the impression you haven't finished it, which is okay, but there's a lot of symbolism on that seemlingly erratic piece of work.
It's not that I didn't get the symbolism, I just felt that it was pretentiously handled, and not a new message. The game was just banal to me, and my reaction to its attempt at lessons of life was annoyance at the game creator for jerking me around. Possibly if I were more inclined to be drawn into its world, it would work better, but for me, I was just getting flashbacks of twee Homestuck fans.
nothing had ever touched me more than that game, because it was so much like me. That was a frightening precise depiction of my own reality, and i felt validated because, gaming doesn't have to be only about wish fulfilment, it can also be about walking a mile or two on someone's shoes.
It's cool that it meant so much to you; I just didn't feel like it did a great job communicating anything to me, someone without that lived experience.
ubon
66
I missed a lot of this but I think that we should start imposing a tax on everyone who sees, like, even a vaguely critical conversation and swaggers right in going 'pff who let tumblr in here'
like, it's worse than useless in terms of the discussion for one thing, but also in parroting that opinion you bought premade from (insert jaded internet boy here) you're displaying your own agenda and knee-jerk cliqueish thinking way more obviously than the people you're trying to call out for the sin of... using social media and employing critical methods that have existed for centuries prior to its existence.
honestly it's harrowing that so many people on in communities ostensibly geared toward creative purposes are so desperate for reasons to ignore or dismiss the most vital and interesting parts of the craft
(for clarity's sake, this isn't written in regards to the thing about writing style on the last page)
e:
I think this is fair; in the case of certain people with transparent antiprogressive agendas (who I'm amazed people will even grudgingly agree with, given the obvious bad-faith nature of everything they're saying), demanding explanations and then rejecting them with 'well, I don't care about activism and I don't want to read anything' is a very common tactic. effective communication is important, but please remember that if you care about a discussion and want to participate there's no harm in doing some reading on your own.
I think a lot of us agree that representation doesn't necessarily need to focus on the struggles and turmoil of the group being represented (if for no other reason than that sort of thing is often voyeuristically consumed by the mainstream audience in a gross 'suffer for our entertainment' sort of way), but this is an incredibly unnecessary, gauche, and insensitive way to say it. I expected much better from you.
like, it's worse than useless in terms of the discussion for one thing, but also in parroting that opinion you bought premade from (insert jaded internet boy here) you're displaying your own agenda and knee-jerk cliqueish thinking way more obviously than the people you're trying to call out for the sin of... using social media and employing critical methods that have existed for centuries prior to its existence.
honestly it's harrowing that so many people on in communities ostensibly geared toward creative purposes are so desperate for reasons to ignore or dismiss the most vital and interesting parts of the craft
(for clarity's sake, this isn't written in regards to the thing about writing style on the last page)
e:
author=WetMattos
Yeah, and no. As in, yup, i do actually agree with most of what you've been pointing out. That said, someone's stance when entering the conversation will determine how i play it out. And i have a very low tolerance for some very specific things - the one about not understanding and yet trying to control the discourse, for example, is a pet peeve.
I think this is fair; in the case of certain people with transparent antiprogressive agendas (who I'm amazed people will even grudgingly agree with, given the obvious bad-faith nature of everything they're saying), demanding explanations and then rejecting them with 'well, I don't care about activism and I don't want to read anything' is a very common tactic. effective communication is important, but please remember that if you care about a discussion and want to participate there's no harm in doing some reading on your own.
author=Liberty
With sad-sack stories like you put forward as good representation it's no wonder the suicide rate for trans-teens is so high
I think a lot of us agree that representation doesn't necessarily need to focus on the struggles and turmoil of the group being represented (if for no other reason than that sort of thing is often voyeuristically consumed by the mainstream audience in a gross 'suffer for our entertainment' sort of way), but this is an incredibly unnecessary, gauche, and insensitive way to say it. I expected much better from you.
Tyranos
1115
Humans may not use tools and express emotions exactly like other animals, but that doesn't exempt us from animal status. No two species share exactly the same sets of behavior. But we also share far too much in common to pretend that we are some form of life that transcends animal status. On another note when you fill out applications or look at an ID or when cops put out an alert it's Male/Female not Man/Woman. Stop being ignorant please.
Just admit you are being entitled and taking offense to stupid internet trolls. I mean seriously you drop the funnest buzzwords to get people listening but so far I've heard nothing of substance. You are literally trying to turn an issue that is you being upset about something someone said into way more than that. As noted by your opening content warning that symbolic violence is used. You are taking a valid conversation and throwing it under the bus for personal gain.
I do appreciate what you are bastardizing though. The problem is your handling of it is terrible. There are very real issues related to Transgender people in general and you've literally said fuck you to all of it so you can whine about internet trolls. How about dealing with some of these very real problems that are a bit more pressing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmoAX9f6MOc
Just admit you are being entitled and taking offense to stupid internet trolls. I mean seriously you drop the funnest buzzwords to get people listening but so far I've heard nothing of substance. You are literally trying to turn an issue that is you being upset about something someone said into way more than that. As noted by your opening content warning that symbolic violence is used. You are taking a valid conversation and throwing it under the bus for personal gain.
I do appreciate what you are bastardizing though. The problem is your handling of it is terrible. There are very real issues related to Transgender people in general and you've literally said fuck you to all of it so you can whine about internet trolls. How about dealing with some of these very real problems that are a bit more pressing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmoAX9f6MOc
ubon
66
yes hello I am the Good Trans Ally Man who Supports the Real Trans Issues, for my first act I will be condescending toward a trans woman + tell her she is overreacting to things I have only tangentially experienced myself
for my second I will link to a video of a cis comedian as the end-all be-all of what trans people should really care about. I'm an ally.
a quick hint: before you think it's a good and brave idea to tell marginalized people they're acting 'entitled', stop and pet a dog or something
for my second I will link to a video of a cis comedian as the end-all be-all of what trans people should really care about. I'm an ally.
a quick hint: before you think it's a good and brave idea to tell marginalized people they're acting 'entitled', stop and pet a dog or something
While i wasn't waiting for it to happen so fast, it's kinda surprising that it didn't happen earlier.
Yes, please, tell me about the very real issues i, myself, suffer. I can't wait for it.
@sooz, i think that there's, how can i put this, there's an expectation that, having created a thread specifically for this reason, that i should be explaining things for everyone because, yes, why do you expect me to know better than this. Specially when i approach it with very specific language that has a lot to do with my lived experience - none of this was learned at the academia - and people feel the need to have it laid bare, and for me this is a very specific form of entitlement that has a lot to do with the content. I feel that, in the end, we two take two very different, and very valid approaches to this same question, mostly because i understand we have different objectives. And i guess we can leave it at that ^,^
Yes, please, tell me about the very real issues i, myself, suffer. I can't wait for it.
@sooz, i think that there's, how can i put this, there's an expectation that, having created a thread specifically for this reason, that i should be explaining things for everyone because, yes, why do you expect me to know better than this. Specially when i approach it with very specific language that has a lot to do with my lived experience - none of this was learned at the academia - and people feel the need to have it laid bare, and for me this is a very specific form of entitlement that has a lot to do with the content. I feel that, in the end, we two take two very different, and very valid approaches to this same question, mostly because i understand we have different objectives. And i guess we can leave it at that ^,^
SnowOwl
5188
Is it really that weird to expect the thread starter to explain what the thread is about? I mean if you only wanted to discuss with people that understand exactly what you're talking about, I'm sure there are better places for that than here. Less than 1 percent of the population of America (for example) is transgendered, that would leave out quite a large portion of us.
You talk alot about entitlement, but I would go as far as calling it entitlement to expect people to go out of their way to read all these books and probably go a year or two in gender studies just to be able to follow a discussion about a lol character having their appearance changed. You're not in the majority, bearing this big cross as you are, as you've said alot of times yourself and you're going to have to explain yourself better than you are doing to us stupid cis's.
Me, I think that if you want people to understand you, you have to at least meet them halfway. That's not what you're doing. As soon as someone questions you, you tell them how ignorant they are and that they should go read a bunch of books. It seems to me that the only persons feelings you care about is yourself here. If you expect people to be interested in your problems at least try to be inclusive, everyone has problems, and you're not special in that regard.
I'm sorry but this whole negative discussion just breeds negativity and alienates people even more, and isn't even helping anyone. It's basically a big circlejerk where everyone that doesn't agree gets shit thrown at them.
It's a shitty thing that people don't respect you, but let's be honest, you will find people that don't like anyone ever on the Internet everywhere. There is such a thing as ignoring it instead of actively scanning for it and understanding that not everyone is like that, just a vocal minority.
I might have generalized here, but this is pretty much the feeling I'm getting, and it's not like I'm going to be able to get any deeper understanding because if I ask anything I'll just be told to read a book or to leave.
You talk alot about entitlement, but I would go as far as calling it entitlement to expect people to go out of their way to read all these books and probably go a year or two in gender studies just to be able to follow a discussion about a lol character having their appearance changed. You're not in the majority, bearing this big cross as you are, as you've said alot of times yourself and you're going to have to explain yourself better than you are doing to us stupid cis's.
Me, I think that if you want people to understand you, you have to at least meet them halfway. That's not what you're doing. As soon as someone questions you, you tell them how ignorant they are and that they should go read a bunch of books. It seems to me that the only persons feelings you care about is yourself here. If you expect people to be interested in your problems at least try to be inclusive, everyone has problems, and you're not special in that regard.
I'm sorry but this whole negative discussion just breeds negativity and alienates people even more, and isn't even helping anyone. It's basically a big circlejerk where everyone that doesn't agree gets shit thrown at them.
It's a shitty thing that people don't respect you, but let's be honest, you will find people that don't like anyone ever on the Internet everywhere. There is such a thing as ignoring it instead of actively scanning for it and understanding that not everyone is like that, just a vocal minority.
I might have generalized here, but this is pretty much the feeling I'm getting, and it's not like I'm going to be able to get any deeper understanding because if I ask anything I'll just be told to read a book or to leave.
I realize this is a very personal topic for you, Mattos, while it isn't for the vast majority of us. So this is a very valid concern.
I would love to see more insight into the issue. For example, you talk about how narratives have to be inclusive of trans characters and their differences -
What does this difference entail? What views are majorly different from the usual cis person, what experiences differ particularily strong and will have to be adjusted?
Can you give us a few examples on how you can adjust the narrative to be inclusive of a transgender character, as opposed to just adding them into a normal context?
(which at least acknowledges their existance)
I would love to see more insight into the issue. For example, you talk about how narratives have to be inclusive of trans characters and their differences -
What does this difference entail? What views are majorly different from the usual cis person, what experiences differ particularily strong and will have to be adjusted?
Can you give us a few examples on how you can adjust the narrative to be inclusive of a transgender character, as opposed to just adding them into a normal context?
(which at least acknowledges their existance)
@snowowl, while i think that the points you raise have merit, you have a somewhat limited perspective on what i see, and the social dynamics involved in this convo. I raise this really not as an attempt to bash you, but rather as a reminder that there are more things going on than what can individually be picked up here.
That said, i don't enter conversations about themes that demand some level of technical knowledge that i know nothing about, and if i do, i do so humbly, because i know very little about it. And there is a very high degree of contempt against social studies, some of which could be seen in this discussion, which combines with an expectation of availability of people who are marginalized to create a dynamic in which every single discussion about those themes must be an introductory level course. Or, worse, that it should be detached of the people doing it, which means that feelings must be left out, because when you enter a discussion how do you dare not being available for people? I know of marginalized people who have contacted me privately who won't enter the discussion, because the space isn't safe enough, even though i asked specifically to know of these experiences. So, in an attempt to cater to all requests, i'm alienating the people whose experiences i'm looking for the most.
So, do i expect you to take an year or two of gender studies to follow my discussion? No, i myself have no years of formal gender studies. Do i expect you to at the very least use google to look for specific words, and to tread with respect in a field that, as you said, you know little about? I regard that as a respectful approach, not only to the discussion but also to the people involved.
Even because, lest we forget, i have offered to make a glossary of basic terms, and many people took time to simplify my admitedly formal language. It's not like there is an explicit attempt on not being understood, much to the opposite. And, much to what i have answered in an antagonizing manner were, and i was not the only one to point that out, antagonizing comments. And everyone who has respectfully addressed my points, specially when disagreeing, have received respectful answers, to the best of my abilities - which, admitelly, have been very limited, specifically because i have been feeling unsafe here, and it cause me great anxiety to answer almost every post.
No one has been factoring the kind of distress some of the messages have caused me, specifically because they target me in the level of the discourse. So, when tyranos comes out to invalidate my life and struggles as a trans woman, i feel the violence within it, even if most people can't see to identify it. Sooz earlier seemed to suggest that, if i'm not fully available to discuss things, or if it causes me distress, i should come out, and, fuck, that is nasty attitude, because it means that i must be fully available for people regardless of the violence they inflict me. That my distress is a thing of personal sensitivity, and should be disregarded because discussions are for those who can do it. Again, i have other marginalized people who have been avoiding the thread, despite talking to me privately, because they don't feel safe about a discussion about their representation and their experiences. How contradictory is that?
Finally, it's worth point out that every single discussion on social justice in mainstream spaces - that is, every space that don't exist managed by and for marginalized groups - degenerates into this. This was even lampshaded by liberty, earlier. And it happens regardless of the tone of the op. So, i need to question if this is a question of tone and language, or a question of how the audience confronts such proposals - something that has been pointed out earlier by someone else as well.
P.S.: don't use transgendered to talk about transgender people. Transness is not a thing that happens to you, so one couldn't become transgendered; and suggesting that dynamic is normally seen as violent, for some people. I'd pay attention to it ^,^
EDIT: Kylaila, the request has been heard, but i have some things to do this morning, so as soon as i get back i'll answer it, 'k?
That said, i don't enter conversations about themes that demand some level of technical knowledge that i know nothing about, and if i do, i do so humbly, because i know very little about it. And there is a very high degree of contempt against social studies, some of which could be seen in this discussion, which combines with an expectation of availability of people who are marginalized to create a dynamic in which every single discussion about those themes must be an introductory level course. Or, worse, that it should be detached of the people doing it, which means that feelings must be left out, because when you enter a discussion how do you dare not being available for people? I know of marginalized people who have contacted me privately who won't enter the discussion, because the space isn't safe enough, even though i asked specifically to know of these experiences. So, in an attempt to cater to all requests, i'm alienating the people whose experiences i'm looking for the most.
So, do i expect you to take an year or two of gender studies to follow my discussion? No, i myself have no years of formal gender studies. Do i expect you to at the very least use google to look for specific words, and to tread with respect in a field that, as you said, you know little about? I regard that as a respectful approach, not only to the discussion but also to the people involved.
Even because, lest we forget, i have offered to make a glossary of basic terms, and many people took time to simplify my admitedly formal language. It's not like there is an explicit attempt on not being understood, much to the opposite. And, much to what i have answered in an antagonizing manner were, and i was not the only one to point that out, antagonizing comments. And everyone who has respectfully addressed my points, specially when disagreeing, have received respectful answers, to the best of my abilities - which, admitelly, have been very limited, specifically because i have been feeling unsafe here, and it cause me great anxiety to answer almost every post.
No one has been factoring the kind of distress some of the messages have caused me, specifically because they target me in the level of the discourse. So, when tyranos comes out to invalidate my life and struggles as a trans woman, i feel the violence within it, even if most people can't see to identify it. Sooz earlier seemed to suggest that, if i'm not fully available to discuss things, or if it causes me distress, i should come out, and, fuck, that is nasty attitude, because it means that i must be fully available for people regardless of the violence they inflict me. That my distress is a thing of personal sensitivity, and should be disregarded because discussions are for those who can do it. Again, i have other marginalized people who have been avoiding the thread, despite talking to me privately, because they don't feel safe about a discussion about their representation and their experiences. How contradictory is that?
Finally, it's worth point out that every single discussion on social justice in mainstream spaces - that is, every space that don't exist managed by and for marginalized groups - degenerates into this. This was even lampshaded by liberty, earlier. And it happens regardless of the tone of the op. So, i need to question if this is a question of tone and language, or a question of how the audience confronts such proposals - something that has been pointed out earlier by someone else as well.
P.S.: don't use transgendered to talk about transgender people. Transness is not a thing that happens to you, so one couldn't become transgendered; and suggesting that dynamic is normally seen as violent, for some people. I'd pay attention to it ^,^
EDIT: Kylaila, the request has been heard, but i have some things to do this morning, so as soon as i get back i'll answer it, 'k?
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=WetMattos
Sooz earlier seemed to suggest that, if i'm not fully available to discuss things, or if it causes me distress, i should come out, and, fuck, that is nasty attitude, because it means that i must be fully available for people regardless of the violence they inflict me.
Uhhhh, what? No, that is the opposite of what I am saying. I am saying that you should pick your battles, and if a particular discussion is getting to much for you, quit having that discussion because it's too much for you. I mean, shit, you say in the OP that you've got AD; this is a case of "Is it 100% necessary that I, a person with a mental issue that causes me to panic at shit (panic being known explicitly for making people act like morons because it fucks up your brain), get into this?"
Take care of yourself, and maybe let other people handle the issue, because you are not the only person here with an interest in good transfolks representation and/or social justice in general. Shit, I'm on your side, I've just been trying to explain what I've learned from beating my head on brick walls for a while, because it's a really shitty experience and there are more fruitful ways to go about it.
I mean yeah, you have a lot of info that other people do not, but the way you're sharing it with the rest of the thread here has not been helpful. Whether it's fair or not to the marginalized, approaching a discussion with privileged folks by saying, "OK here's a problem you didn't know existed and doesn't fit in your worldview. Go educate yourself on it, I'm not going to offer any real help or guidance, also here's a bunch of academic buzzwords to further muddy the waters," is going to turn more people off than convert them. This is a simple fact of humanity.
Ways you can approach the discussion to make it fruitful:
-Think about it for a few moments and deconstruct the processes of what you're talking about. You're metaphorically bringing an algebra problem to people who are barely aware of simple arithmetic. (You bring up transphobia and the term "hegemonic cultural millieu" in the OP to people whose chief exposure to the existence of transfolks has been horrible jokes and Caitlyn Jenner. Of fucking course you're gonna get pushback, because a lot of people don't know what the fuck.)
"But Sooz, they should approach this topic with respect and humility and know to do their own research because it's something they don't know!" Yeah, they should. At the same time, you're bringing the topic into this group. To the view of people here, what's happening is that you came in their space with a bunch of unfamiliar gobbeldigook and then told them it's their problem if they don't understand you. That's not a way to get people to listen to you, because it instantly gives the impression that you're just lording it over them.
The rules of respect in social justice discussions apply mainly to when others are coming in from outside to derail. When you are bringing stuff to them, you have to at least meet them halfway. SPEAKING OF...
-Be prepared to empathize with people who are hateful, or to ignore them. I've seen time and again that simply being devoted to interacting kindly and sympathetically with people who are being assholes is one of the most effective ways of getting them to simmer down and listen. You listen to what they have to say, occasionally they will get over their initial rage and return the favor.
This does require a lot of energy, however, and engaging with every person gettin mad that you're clashing with their worldview is not engaging with the discussion you wanted to have. If this is not something you think you can manage, fuck 'em, let someone else handle it. If it comes to it, use the mute function, so you don't even get that nasty adrenaline spike from seeing they've posted.
-Don't bring up your topic only after two paragraphs of example. This is called "burying the lede" and it's a terrible idea, because- as you've seen- most people just check out the first paragraph or so, decide the discussion's about that, and there goes your topic. Actual point of discussion first, THEN examples, so people know what filter they're looking through.
FUCK I DID IT AGAIN I AM TALKING ABOUT TALKING ABOUT THINGS
Shit, at this point, maybe I should adapt this into an article or something. orz
mawk, we have an ignore feature for a reason.
Also, the OP isn't obligated to explain anything to anyone. if we're talking about entitlement, expecting to have the details of a very complicated and sensitive topic spoon-fed to you sounds pretty entitled.
Also, the OP isn't obligated to explain anything to anyone. if we're talking about entitlement, expecting to have the details of a very complicated and sensitive topic spoon-fed to you sounds pretty entitled.
Well, feeling entitled or not aside, it is something that would help us understand, and it would help us to learn more about it.
I agree we cannot force anyone to do anything, but we may still ask for some insight of someone who is living under the effects of what we are trying to discuss.
We cannot force it to happen, though, as it is indeed very sensitive.
I agree we cannot force anyone to do anything, but we may still ask for some insight of someone who is living under the effects of what we are trying to discuss.
We cannot force it to happen, though, as it is indeed very sensitive.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
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author=Solitayre
Also, the OP isn't obligated to explain anything to anyone. if we're talking about entitlement, expecting to have the details of a very complicated and sensitive topic spoon-fed to you sounds pretty entitled.
OK, so
Person comes into an area and starts talking about complicated and sensitive topic, complete with vocabulary unfamiliar to the average person in the area
and the problem is that the average people would like things broken down so they can actually understand what's going on?
Like, yeah, if I were over in Social Justice Garmes Talk Forum* and some newbie came into the middle of a higher-level discussion demanding 101, that would be dumb.
But if I am trying to introduce discussion of social justice topics into a hitherto uninvolved group, the very least I could do is come in with some help for them to get up to speed.
It's the difference between a high schooler breaking in angrily during a PhD discussion, and a PhD coming into a high school to talk about their area of expertise.
(Disclaimer I don't think that the angry derailing posts are in the right or anything; most of them are p. dickish and unnecessarily aggressive. But nobody's getting anywhere if everyone's being a dick about it, and insisting on speaking over your audience's head is dickish.)
WITH ALL THAT OUT OF THE WAY
howsabout we try addressing the OP's intended topic now (and try to salvage this shitty, repetitive derail):
author=OP
How, exactly, do you deal with creating characters that defy expectations of how individuals should look and be in our media?
Do you go out of the way to create well fleshed, genuine characters who belong in one or more marginalised groups? . . .
Is there a concern in creating characters that . . . <represent> people that exist and don't get the spotlight often?
How do you manage the expectation of <angry trolls> which, most probably, will follow their announcement and development?
People who are marginalized themselves, I'm particularly interested in your answers - I'm yet to find a way to navigate this space without flaring my anxiety disorders.
I'm gonna say that, IME, I just make the characters, and, thus far, nobody's given me shit about it. Quite the opposite- I've gotten a lot of praise from my audience for making nonwhite, LGB (no T just because, as stated before, I haven't managed that yet), occasionally mentally ill characters.
It seems to me that a lot of the time, controversy only happens after a buildup of popularity. It's certainly possible you'll get douches coming in and complaining that you (say) made an action hero with tits that doesn't get their boner throbbing, but it's unlikely unless you're recognized as or by one of the big industry types.
And really, in the majority of cases, the shit comments are just shit comments. They can and do escalate in rare instances, but most won't go beyond futile threats and suggestions you commit suicide. These are fucking horrible, but something that a content producer needs to prepare coping mechanisms for, because it's shit that is not going to stop any time soon. That's not ideal, or even decent, but you gotta go back to the platitude of the Serenity Prayer: Accept that you can't change everything that sucks, try to change what you can, and learn how to tell which is which.
Again, I think that, unless you're either really famous or otherwise making yourself obvious to the douches of the internet** you're not going to show up on their radars at all. They're mostly too busy obsessing over whatever milquetoast thing Anita Sarkeesian said recently. "Ohmigawd you guys did you hear what she said about video games? Ugh, I can't believe her. She is, like, such a loserrr! Just because she got voted prom queen she thinks she can say whatever she wants!"
*I don't really follow mainstream game stuff so I have no idea what outlets are populated by people familiar with this subject matter
**Like going into a gam mak discussion group and talking SJ terminology :V
EDIT: Just bold wasn't eyecatching enough. I'd make it sparkle and blink rainbow colors if I could. I would make a lot more text do that if I could
I'd love it if we had some kind of primer we could link people to to help them get up to speed on this sort of thing, but unfortunately I wouldn't know where to start.
Again, I think that, unless you're either really famous or otherwise making yourself obvious to the douches of the internet
or being a douche thyself; that'll get you on some rather unfavorable radars as well.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=Libertyauthor=mutherfuckingmeAlso, who's saying I'm making them part of someone else's narrative? Korra managed to be bisexual and kick-ass and dark-skinned and a woman and never mentioned them as negatives. How is she not a good representation for dark skinned people and bisexual people and women?
Like I said - if you're writing about historical or modern shit, then racial tensions/gender identification/sexuality can be an issue, but if you're not then you have the freedom to not make that a thing and to just focus on creating a character who is awesome and ignoring the race card.
Main characters in my current game - one gay woman, one bisexual woman, one bisexual man, one genderfluid man who is gay. They don't focus on that - they treat it as normal because in their world it is. Instead they are kick-ass people doing kick-ass things and not bothering to justify their existence to the player. They just are.
Do they have their dark pasts? Sure. One of them is married and dealing with being separated from their spouse after being framed for attempted regicide. Another is dealing with a curse that is slowly killing them. But their sexuality/genders are not their issue.
Does this make them bad representations? No. Not at all. And that is where my issue with you lies - because you're saying that to be a good representation you need to show the sad, horrible journey but for a lot of people, seeing a journey like that is... not great. Why write about that when you can give hope by showing that there is nothing wrong with them, that they are capable of wonderful things and being happy and doing great stuff - that they are not a genital. That they are more than their gender and that it gets better.
With sad-sack stories like you put forward as good representation it's no wonder the suicide rate for trans-teens is so high - they don't see the hope in a future (that and they don't think they can transition well past a certain age. Yes I read tumblr, too). If all they're fed is stories of the tragedy of their own being how can they grow to think of themselves as a normal person, as someone who is equal to everyone else and who deserves just as much as everyone else? How can they hope that in 30 years they'll be happy and doing kick-ass things?
They can't, because all that kind of representation feeds them is pitying their sad fate instead of actually giving them an aim. I'd rather never write stories like that, thanks very. You're free to read them - that's your right - but you don't have the right to demand that everyone write them because that's 'what representation is'.
Not that I want to shit on your post or you as a person, but if you think fictitious stories/games are a good indication of the suicide rate of real trans youth, you're sadly mistaken. Everyone lives in the real world with real problems that result in real consequences for and against said individual. A lifetime of growing up being considered lesser than your peers for something out of your control won't be undone by a kick-ass character in a vidja gam.
Plenty of people have real problems with "dark" and "real" games like Depression Quest because it doesn't speak to them or whatnot, but for people who are suffering with such things, it's in itself a ray of light because someone else clearly gets what they're going through. If you have an author who devotes their time to writing a ball-busting story, they're speaking out of pain that someone else can - and will - relate to. "You're not alone" is a much stronger support than "it's better elsewhere/in fantasy". If you want for someone to feel hopeless, give them the Sun in a jar but never let them feel its warmth. Escape is what supports the noose. And what Solitayre alluded to in the last page, having a world free of conflict promotes complacency, which is typically a trait of conservatism which in itself promotes the anti-social justice movements.
Also, because I've seen this rear up out of several people in this thread...
@BigWordsScareMeHowDareYouEdumacation
Don't be Fox News.
Alichains
637
Personally, the only I had with Wet's posts is that they're big walls of text, which are tempting to gloss over even when they're written at a third grade level. Most of it wasn't hard to follow due to the context if nothing else.
