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kentona
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Closewell, the brits tend to toss around 'cunt' like we toss around 'dick', and we should probably not be so quick to project north american sensibilities upon another culture and then judge them on it.
While i had a big, relevant wall of text incoming, i still can't read all comments with their due attention - thank exhaustion for that.
So, i'll save my comments for tomorrow. Please, folks, don't blow up this thing yet again - else i won't be able to keep up >.<
EDIT: as a clarification, seeing how often the equivalency argument has been raised, i'd like to actually, properly address it, with all the attention it deserves. I feel that, while there was really good answers to it, they do not demonstrate the thought process behind the conclusion, and that may be what is missing from the conversation.
Also, at this point? I know we've been derailed beyond all recognition - we're reaching old man Henderson's level of derailment - but i find the whole process really educative, at least when it comes to making and moderating such threads, so i feel it still has a lot of worth.
So, i'll save my comments for tomorrow. Please, folks, don't blow up this thing yet again - else i won't be able to keep up >.<
EDIT: as a clarification, seeing how often the equivalency argument has been raised, i'd like to actually, properly address it, with all the attention it deserves. I feel that, while there was really good answers to it, they do not demonstrate the thought process behind the conclusion, and that may be what is missing from the conversation.
Also, at this point? I know we've been derailed beyond all recognition - we're reaching old man Henderson's level of derailment - but i find the whole process really educative, at least when it comes to making and moderating such threads, so i feel it still has a lot of worth.
author=kentona
well, the brits tend to toss around 'cunt' like we toss around 'dick', and we should probably not be so quick to project north american sensibilities upon another culture and then judge them on it.
I don't actually use or hear 'cunt' used very much here...then again, I do live in the least British city in Britain LOL
In other news, I finally understood what this topic is about. To answer the question in the OP: Speaking purely hypothetically here, if I were to create diverse characters and a vocal minority then complained, I would...not care, honestly. That's because I likely wouldn't see why I should give a shit about a a minority of people with obviously flawed opinions. Haters gonna hate
ubon
66
author=kentonaauthor=slashthe flipside of this is if you nonchalantly add a diverse character, others will assume you are making a statement about whatever group that character is identified as belonging to, regardless of what you intended. Furthermore, the slightest misstep there can land you in a PR nightmare. So I am not surprised that people sidestep this potential hassle entirely and just make the characters non-descript 30 something buzz cut white hetero males. Which leaves only the developers who are making a statement about a particular group. Which just further reinforces this cycle.
Y'know, since we're already floating in the ether discussion-wise, I really liked Sooz's line of thinking a few pages back. Specifically, the fact that you can add diverse characters without needing to specifically acknowledge it, right? Like, the idea that you only include a black character or a gay character or a trans character when you're trying to create some sort of message is silly. I think that's a pitfall a lot of us trip into.
I guess we need more brave (or apathetic) game developers to be more cavalier about the diversity of their cast of characters.
Personally, though, right now, if I had a plan to include a boorish asshole as a character, I would not make him, say, homosexual, lest it be perceived that I think all homosexuals are boorish assholes. I might not even consider making him a "her". Not until it becomes more normalized to see diversity in games as a whole where my game could blend in with the masses. I don't have the anonymity or PR skills or personal strength to handle any kind of fallout or drama otherwise.
the risk of this becomes far less pronounced as long as you aren't just putting in one marginalized character to bear the weight of the audience's expectations. most concerns about tokenism, or the appearance of tokenism, are solved by this.
author=SolitayreIt was a joke ye dunce. Get a sense of humor and some more calcium for your spine.author=BizarreMonkeyThank you for your input. Please post elsewhere if you have nothing constructive to add.
Blah blah
Thanks, mngmt
author=SolitayreI'm on the verge of transgender myself, I gotta say you're acting fairly ridiculous.
If you're going to tl;dr the topic then maybe this isn't a discussion for you. Also, please use appropriate language when talking about transgender people in a topic about transgender people where you're talking to transgender people.
Especially when the topic's origin wasn't even about transgender politics wholly, but about game stuff that somewhat referred to it.
You're only serving to remind me of why I don't like the idea of going whole hog, and it seems going by recent comments that the OP feels the same way.
If I did become one with my femininity, I wouldn't expect privileges or pardons for it, much as it's an urge, it is also a choice. I'd be going through with such a thing because it made me feel whole, and that would be enough for me.
I'm not trying to defend bigotry, either, but you're being needlessly rude. I don't think it's achieving the effect you intend.
emmych
817
@Bizarre Monkey: the thing is, jokes are not always appropriate? And I say this as a class A clown who often tries to diffuse things with humour. You coming into this discussion and trying to derail it with humour is innapropriate and dismissive. Your joke read as an attempt to shut down the conversation, at least from my perspective.
This has nothing to do with having a spine or not, and everything to do with respect for the people trying to have a productive discussion.
Also there is nothing rude about a moderator requesting slurs not be used in this conversation. If you don't have a problem with a slur that could be used against you, this is fine, but you gotta remember that your view isn't universal and that other folks may view it as violence.
This has nothing to do with having a spine or not, and everything to do with respect for the people trying to have a productive discussion.
Also there is nothing rude about a moderator requesting slurs not be used in this conversation. If you don't have a problem with a slur that could be used against you, this is fine, but you gotta remember that your view isn't universal and that other folks may view it as violence.
author=emmychYeah that's fair, in hindsight I can see how what I said may have been interpreted that way.
@Bizarre Monkey: the thing is, jokes are not always appropriate? And I say this as a class A clown who often tries to diffuse things with humour. You coming into this discussion and trying to derail it with humour is innapropriate and dismissive. Your joke read as an attempt to shut down the conversation, at least from my perspective.
This has nothing to do with having a spine or not, and everything to do with respect for the people trying to have a productive discussion.
This whole topic is becoming something of a powder-keg situation. My intent was to not derail or shut it down, but to make it a little less serious and or aggressive, which I guess I spectacularly failed at.
I don't remember using slurs, I mean unless you count 'dingbat' as a slur. Which seems pretty far-fetched since I made it up.
I skimmed through the first few pages saw and here is your official trans®©™ pansexual member input on the topic.
On the terms of the leauge of legends level of this topic. There are a lot of gross people on leauge who I could very easily see why this would have happened over a character design change which honestly I think looks pretty killer. I would have to in the end just ignore it because I don't think trans people saying anything about it would help with the leauge of legends crowd.
On terms of putting trans or other lgbt+ characters in your game. It's honestly soooooooo simple and easy but in our society where we really see it it is used as jokes which are really terrible and I hate them. I don't think anymore I would say would really make any impact on the conversation but yeah.
Edit after some more reading: yes people will go out of their way to attack you for your gender there is no safe place for it. And I 100% agree with ppwhat sooz said about pbeing able to add diverse characters easily
On the terms of the leauge of legends level of this topic. There are a lot of gross people on leauge who I could very easily see why this would have happened over a character design change which honestly I think looks pretty killer. I would have to in the end just ignore it because I don't think trans people saying anything about it would help with the leauge of legends crowd.
On terms of putting trans or other lgbt+ characters in your game. It's honestly soooooooo simple and easy but in our society where we really see it it is used as jokes which are really terrible and I hate them. I don't think anymore I would say would really make any impact on the conversation but yeah.
Edit after some more reading: yes people will go out of their way to attack you for your gender there is no safe place for it. And I 100% agree with ppwhat sooz said about pbeing able to add diverse characters easily
Oh yeah, the league of legends community, like that of most moba's, is infamously toxic.
It's like when you address a good friend as 'nerd'.
author=kentonaIn Auusieland cunt is just another term for gedday between good friends.
well, the brits tend to toss around 'cunt' like we toss around 'dick', and we should probably not be so quick to project north american sensibilities upon another culture and then judge them on it.
It's like when you address a good friend as 'nerd'.
author=DespiteYeah, I pretty much would say this, unless they're making them a sewage encrusted rapist like jeez.
A characters look is up to the creator.
And this is the MOBA community we're talking about, where it's more likely you've fucked up if no one says anything of it.
author=Feldschlacht IV
I'd like to point out (although as an aside and definitely not in reference to the original grievance of this topic) that the 'crazy SJW' is sort of a thing now and are capable of kind of concerning feats, up to most recently, a hardline feminist group trying to get Tyler the Creator (a rapper) banned from Australia and almost succeeding due to concerns of his lyrics, and so forth.
It's beginning to make the idea of the 'Horseshoe Theory' (the idea that far left and far right become more and more similar, in this case, the similarity of authoritarianism to 'banning' things they don't like) concerning them more and more credible, up to and including banning people from continents, hushing controversial discourse from colleges, and bullying, harassing, and even suing people.
The whole idea of 'shut up about crazy SJWs because we're not talking about those' is um...tenuous, depending on the conversation. The concept of 'crazy far leftists who are fucking shit up' isn't as far fetched anymore.
Just an aside!
Give this gentleman the thread-wide-rationality prize.
but what I don't understand is how can 'gamers' be a real and identifiable subgroup, but 'SJWs' not be? how can one set of broad generalized behaviours be categorized and the other not be? if people self-identify as being an SJW, doesn't that de facto make it a thing?
Sincerely,
Confused In Saskatchewan
They're both totally real subgroups, Kenton A. it's just that 'gamers' are actually a fairly diverse group of people that includes salt of the earth mensch-types like most people on this forum and repugnant filthmonsters, whereas avowed SJWs pretty much are made up entirely of repulsive filthmonsters.
It's kind of like saying "I don't understand how Italians can be a real and identifiable subgroup and Nazis* can't be". Obviously both are recognizable demographic groups. It's just that one of those groups are Nazis and deserve whatever they get for all the Nazi stuff they do. :D
(*Godwins every thread all day long.)
Once upon a time I used to laugh at the concept of 'PC Police' when it was something I associated with the Fox News crowd, then I read Solitayre's posts and realized he actually was literally and exactly that.
Mad <3s at Sated for dropping C-Bombs into this fucking delicate ass waltz of a thread. Reminds me of community organizer Saul Alinsky's "100 blacks" farting en masse at the symphony orchestra. (Count me as a continental US'er that gives as much or less of a shit about the word 'cunt' as anyone in Australia.)
Ok, now the moderately serious part of my post:
This is seriously the most heated argument between people who basically fundamentally agree with each other that I've ever seen. You shouldn't use transphobic slurs in a hateful way and you should include whatever types of characters in your game you damn well feel like, portrayed however you like because it's your game and fuck all the haters. Arguments about tone and conversation-accessibility set aside, does anyone actually disagree with any of these fundamental points? I'm not saying like "close the topic, plant dynamite at all the key structural points and go home" but you'd think at least things could be a bit less fraught!
ubon
66
I honestly don't know how many people you think you're fooling by constantly showing and going 'hello parsons, neutral everyman gamer here, by the way not that I care but sjws are evil just my opinion :-)' with your gamergate avatar and your post history 90% full of derails and just meaningless antifeminist talking points someone else prepared for you beforehand
go away, please. you are an unconvincing shill.
go away, please. you are an unconvincing shill.
Video games are what you make of them, you can argue and prattle on about social justice, and all kinds of silly horseshit that some people care about and some don't, but the real issue isn't if you do those things or don't, it's how you do them.
Me, I just do things because in my head they are cool, Esperia is black because it makes her body runes and palette stand out, I think she looks way cooler with the ashen caramel skin than white skin.
If people are gonna get in a knot about that, then they're kinda geared to doing that I'd wager, unless there's nothing else to focus on in the game, which... there is.
This goes for any game that is criticized by some nobody for being insensitive to x race or y-condition when most are just happy to play the fuckin' game for what it is.
The Indie game scene has yeah, sorta gone sour, but that's a problem in itself, I don't care. So long as I just make games that are designed to be fun, inspiring and atmospheric, then I'm doing the best I can, and that's all I need.
Like if you're gonna play games play them for the sake of playing them, if we catered to this kinda shit do you know what that is?
A slippery slope, one where games can no longer be a form of expression, or a passion of bonding, or anything fun, because you're too worried about those SJW's.
I've chosen to completely ignore them. I advise any game developers who just want to make games for fun / the hell of it to do the same. We got by fine in the 1990's without them, we can do fine now.
My main problem with SJW's is that they are just a social caste, and a sad one at that, so yeah you got offended on the internet, big fucking deal that happens to everyone.
Now, when it comes to gay fellas, transgenders and such, that's a bit more understandable, since they faced a LOT of social prejudice, same with anyone who isn't caucasian. They got hella zonked by all kinds of shit, just ask Ronald Regan, he'll tell you all about it.
But if your a demovakin or whatever the fuck and you think you have any rights beyond that of the caucasian white idiot I'm gonna just laugh and call you an idiot.
Do i get monkey privileges just because I model my internet alias over a primate? Do I get upset because you use monkey or ape in a scornful way, or a way meant to insult?
Nope, I just take it, and good god you can too.
Here's a quote from Stephen Fry just to put a final nail in the coffin.
Like, I'm pretty sure we can only talk about LoL for so long, so now we're talking about SJW's I guess?
Me, I just do things because in my head they are cool, Esperia is black because it makes her body runes and palette stand out, I think she looks way cooler with the ashen caramel skin than white skin.
If people are gonna get in a knot about that, then they're kinda geared to doing that I'd wager, unless there's nothing else to focus on in the game, which... there is.
This goes for any game that is criticized by some nobody for being insensitive to x race or y-condition when most are just happy to play the fuckin' game for what it is.
The Indie game scene has yeah, sorta gone sour, but that's a problem in itself, I don't care. So long as I just make games that are designed to be fun, inspiring and atmospheric, then I'm doing the best I can, and that's all I need.
author=mawkThey're not evil, they're just idiots, obsessing over shit that really doesn't even matter in the end.
but sjws are evil just my opinion :-)'
Like if you're gonna play games play them for the sake of playing them, if we catered to this kinda shit do you know what that is?
A slippery slope, one where games can no longer be a form of expression, or a passion of bonding, or anything fun, because you're too worried about those SJW's.
I've chosen to completely ignore them. I advise any game developers who just want to make games for fun / the hell of it to do the same. We got by fine in the 1990's without them, we can do fine now.
My main problem with SJW's is that they are just a social caste, and a sad one at that, so yeah you got offended on the internet, big fucking deal that happens to everyone.
Now, when it comes to gay fellas, transgenders and such, that's a bit more understandable, since they faced a LOT of social prejudice, same with anyone who isn't caucasian. They got hella zonked by all kinds of shit, just ask Ronald Regan, he'll tell you all about it.
But if your a demovakin or whatever the fuck and you think you have any rights beyond that of the caucasian white idiot I'm gonna just laugh and call you an idiot.
Do i get monkey privileges just because I model my internet alias over a primate? Do I get upset because you use monkey or ape in a scornful way, or a way meant to insult?
Nope, I just take it, and good god you can too.
Here's a quote from Stephen Fry just to put a final nail in the coffin.
author=mawkSays the moron blaggardly making personal attacks to distract from the wafer-thin arguments you seem to believe you've provided.
with your gamergate avatar and your post history 90% full of derails and just meaningless antifeminist talking points someone else prepared for you beforehand
go away, please. you are an unconvincing shill.
Like, I'm pretty sure we can only talk about LoL for so long, so now we're talking about SJW's I guess?
ubon
66
pretending that these objections are just newspaper caricatures getting offended at something harmless is nothing but an easy way to excuse yourself when you dismiss the actual concerns of actual affected people. you know that, right?
"you heard some privilege jokes on 4chan and have access to a widely-misquoted soundbyte from a gay actor so you can pretend you're not homophobic. well, so fucking what?"
- ham egg
(also, pointing out that someone's entire existence for the past year has been to derail things when marginalized people start talking about their experiences is not an attack, but I have a feeling you already know that)
"you heard some privilege jokes on 4chan and have access to a widely-misquoted soundbyte from a gay actor so you can pretend you're not homophobic. well, so fucking what?"
- ham egg
(also, pointing out that someone's entire existence for the past year has been to derail things when marginalized people start talking about their experiences is not an attack, but I have a feeling you already know that)
All I'm addressing is that catering to SJW's is a largely unideal scenario for an expressive game dev. And doing so is forcing you down a slippery slope.
No one has in any capacity suffered any sort of physical or even mental trauma for being called dumb or retarded in the knowledge of man, let alone being despised for attaching a label to themselves, which -they chose to do! Just in hopes someone might understand.
Like, really? You're going to try and defend people who would post about how they are a dragonborn on tumblr and legitimately believe it than just think 'what a funny guy' and look past it.
If that guy has severe enough problems, he should be taken to a help center, not tumblr. Tumblr does not have psychiatrists, it has a lot of people who act like they could be psychiatrist's but aren't.
Also, Social Justice USED to be a system for vietcon soldiers who survived the war, and trigger warnings and all that are from a socially accepted bi-law those guys had, they had to mow down children, yeah CHILDREN, THEY HAD TO KILL CHILDREN.
But oh, this SJW had to get offended on the internet, now it's everybody's fucking problem.
I think that SJW should grow a pair of testicles and get over himself. This is the internet, prepare to get your shit kicked in if you so much as think for even a second that you are immune to criticism.
You're not, Bill gates isn't, Mother Tareesa isn't, David Cage isn't. In the last 7 years Social Justice has been devolved into a pit of neanderthals who want to silence words like retarded, stupid, dumb, etc from ever being spoken, I have not once heard of or observed anything come out of the vast joke that is social justice beyond the joke that it is now itself.
So yeah, good on you mawk, you're essentially defending a subculture of the internet so terrible it's become a laughing stock of the internet.
What a star you are!
pretending that these objections are just newspaper caricatures getting offended at something harmless is nothing but an easy way to excuse yourself when you dismiss the actual concerns of actual affected people. you know that, right?You know speaking in a proper manner and trying to be as cryptic as possible is an evasion to any respectable counterpoint, right?
No one has in any capacity suffered any sort of physical or even mental trauma for being called dumb or retarded in the knowledge of man, let alone being despised for attaching a label to themselves, which -they chose to do! Just in hopes someone might understand.
Like, really? You're going to try and defend people who would post about how they are a dragonborn on tumblr and legitimately believe it than just think 'what a funny guy' and look past it.
If that guy has severe enough problems, he should be taken to a help center, not tumblr. Tumblr does not have psychiatrists, it has a lot of people who act like they could be psychiatrist's but aren't.
Also, Social Justice USED to be a system for vietcon soldiers who survived the war, and trigger warnings and all that are from a socially accepted bi-law those guys had, they had to mow down children, yeah CHILDREN, THEY HAD TO KILL CHILDREN.
But oh, this SJW had to get offended on the internet, now it's everybody's fucking problem.
I think that SJW should grow a pair of testicles and get over himself. This is the internet, prepare to get your shit kicked in if you so much as think for even a second that you are immune to criticism.
You're not, Bill gates isn't, Mother Tareesa isn't, David Cage isn't. In the last 7 years Social Justice has been devolved into a pit of neanderthals who want to silence words like retarded, stupid, dumb, etc from ever being spoken, I have not once heard of or observed anything come out of the vast joke that is social justice beyond the joke that it is now itself.
So yeah, good on you mawk, you're essentially defending a subculture of the internet so terrible it's become a laughing stock of the internet.
What a star you are!
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
Women should grow a pair of testicles so that they can be men so that they don't have to be offended that their gender is being portrayed as inferior to men. Testicles are great, and because I've got two of them, that means I'm double-great!
It was easier back in the 90s - back when men were men - because those girls knew their place and stayed quiet during game time.
Slippery slope to what? Child slavery? Won't someoneplease think of the- shut that baby up?
It was easier back in the 90s - back when men were men - because those girls knew their place and stayed quiet during game time.
Slippery slope to what? Child slavery? Won't someone
ubon
66
I think it's self-evident at this point that you're either feigning ignorance on purpose, or your entire understanding of this subject is word-of-mouth from dubious sources.
(as though it wasn't already self-evident when you started up unprompted rants about strawman otherkin and so on)
(as though it wasn't already self-evident when you started up unprompted rants about strawman otherkin and so on)
