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CloseMaybe they were just shitty people in general that had nothing to do with their political views? Pretty damn sure those exist on all sides of every fence in existence.
Maybe if everyone quit labelling people over what you think their views lean and instead take them as people who might agree with some things on one side and some things on the other, and a fair few in the middle, we'd get away from this stupidity of Lobs vs Robs. :/
I'm pretty glad we don't have the whole "Loboral/Robpulblicon" bullshit here. (Like, seriously, is this a "thing" anywhere else in the world? I feel like it probably is in some places but that it's infinitely stronger/stupider in America.)
Maybe if everyone quit labelling people over what you think their views lean and instead take them as people who might agree with some things on one side and some things on the other, and a fair few in the middle, we'd get away from this stupidity of Lobs vs Robs. :/
I'm pretty glad we don't have the whole "Loboral/Robpulblicon" bullshit here. (Like, seriously, is this a "thing" anywhere else in the world? I feel like it probably is in some places but that it's infinitely stronger/stupider in America.)
author=harmonic
Interesting. I actually don't even the tiniest of shits when it comes to these particular issues, but it seems the incredibly non-biased (heh) CNN and NYT seems to think he's up to no good.
Guess we'll see! I'm at the edge of my seat
TIL that the integrity of the president doesn't matter.
author=kentona
TIL that the integrity of the president doesn't matter.
You must be new to American politics.
author=Liberty
I'm pretty glad we don't have the whole "Loboral/Robpulblicon" bullshit here. (Like, seriously, is this a "thing" anywhere else in the world? I feel like it probably is in some places but that it's infinitely stronger/stupider in America.)
I have no idea what this is, tbh >_>
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/12/fccs-ajit-pai-says-net-neutralitys-days-are-numbered-under-trump/
Ajit Pai is looking very likely to lead the FCC permanently (he leads it in interim at the moment). He is actively against measures that protect Net Neutrality as well as laws that require ISPs like Comcast to ask for your permission before collecting and storing your personal data and browsing history. His argument is that these measures prevent innovation, investment, and job creation.
I'd argue heavily against that last point - considering we've had Gigabit technology for a while now but most major ISPs like Comcast or AT&T don't provide it (even if they have the physical lines laid), I don't see any benefit for the average consumer. Cutting these regulations will only lead to us being overcharged.
author=ESBY
all that's left is benghazi and harmonic will have completed republican bingo
Good contribution. *thumbs up*
Housekeeping
3571
@Harmonic: I guess what I don't understand right now is what you want from liberals. I've tried to stress that your problems come from a very vocal minority, but, in terms of public policy, those people don't really have power. What practical steps can we take to fix this issue without trampling on freedom of speech? What has the democratic party done to worsen this behavior? Is voting republican in order to punish that behavior an effective remedy for it, and why?
This just seems like a minor thing that sticks in people's craws, but, if this is actually a thing that influences votes, it seems really petty and foolish for people to vote against their own interests in order to shut up people who annoy them.
This just seems like a minor thing that sticks in people's craws, but, if this is actually a thing that influences votes, it seems really petty and foolish for people to vote against their own interests in order to shut up people who annoy them.
author=Housekeeping
@Harmonic: I guess what I don't understand right now is what you want from liberals. I've tried to stress that your problems come from a very vocal minority, but, in terms of public policy, those people don't really have power. What practical steps can we take to fix this issue without trampling on freedom of speech? What has the democratic party done to worsen this behavior? Is voting republican in order to punish that behavior an effective remedy for it, and why?
This just seems like a minor thing that sticks in people's craws, but, if this is actually a thing that influences votes, it seems really petty and foolish for people to vote against their own interests in order to shut up people who annoy them.
not only is 'voting to stick it to the sjws' not a thing, but if there actually was a significant percentage of the population that voted for a man who is probably going to destroy our earth in order to fight 'political correctness gone mad,' then, that would be all the evidence one would need to determine that they deserve nothing more than being ridiculed and dismissed from conversation, and probably to be dismissed from our universe as well
author=Dyhaltoauthor=CAVE_DOG_IS_BACKWhat flaw is this?
i would say they lost because of a flaw in the us constitution
the electoral college, if made to require all electors from a state to vote identically, destroys its purpose as an elitist failsafe to prevent a demagogue from being elected. and also allows a candidate to win after convincing fewer people to vote for them than their opponent.
author=Housekeeping
@Harmonic: I guess what I don't understand right now is what you want from liberals.
What I would like is if we finally see the final nail in the coffin of the Buzzfeed/Salon/Vox/MTV era of liberalism. No other time did liberals put such an obsessive amount of focus on the victim hierarchy. It riles people up and scapegoats Joe Blow just because he's a white guy. I know it's impossible for one to care when Joe Blow has a complaint, but I'm not pleased with being scapegoated for society's ills because of things I cannot change. It hasn't happened much in this particular thread, but it absolutely happens, pervasively, in the culture at large.
You say it's a vocal minority, but the most popular leftist infotainment/"news" sites and channels are all like this. Maybe they are in the minority and the majority of Democrats are chill and shit? I live in Seattle, tied for 2nd for Hipsterville behind Frisco, so it's a bit of a bubble here.
TLDR: I would like the idea of privilege/victims coming out of the womb to die a long overdue death because it causes resentment and division.
It's really disappointing that there's no willingness on the left to reflect, see why they lost this election (and several down ticket elections) and perhaps try and adjust. Just gonna double down on what failed before.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
harmonic, if by some miracle the "left" does as you say, I highly doubt anything would change. Why? Because the Libertarians will step in and be just as outraged instead. And if they somehow stop, then a different party will step in and become the next "left." I don't think the scapegoating is an issue specific to a singular group, but rather the political climate as a whole.
So long as we're talking pipe dreams, I feel we should all take the advice of our first President and just ignore political parties completely.
My attempt at a TLDR:
Paragraph 1: The dominant political party will likely use their power to get back at parties that opposed them rather than move the country forward. Those oppressed by the dominant party will seek like-minded individuals for safety and security. These individuals will, sooner or later, use that desire for safety and their own personal gain.
Paragraph 2: Political parties often look the other way when it comes to people "on their side" and the American people shouldn't let that slide.
Paragraph 3: Political parties adopt the mentality of "us vs them" to the detriment of the country as a whole, having us at each other's throats when we should be discussing issues.
While it's too late to completely abolish parties (hell, it was too late when Washington first delivered this speech), I think it's a good read that encourages thinking for yourself rather than for a party. If EVERYONE, including the "right" did that... well, who knows?
Here is the entire address, if anyone cares to give it a look.
So long as we're talking pipe dreams, I feel we should all take the advice of our first President and just ignore political parties completely.
George Washington's Farewell Address
... The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries which result gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of public liberty.
Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight), the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it.
It serves always to distract the public councils and enfeeble the public administration. It agitates the community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms, kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which finds a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another. ...
My attempt at a TLDR:
Paragraph 1: The dominant political party will likely use their power to get back at parties that opposed them rather than move the country forward. Those oppressed by the dominant party will seek like-minded individuals for safety and security. These individuals will, sooner or later, use that desire for safety and their own personal gain.
Paragraph 2: Political parties often look the other way when it comes to people "on their side" and the American people shouldn't let that slide.
Paragraph 3: Political parties adopt the mentality of "us vs them" to the detriment of the country as a whole, having us at each other's throats when we should be discussing issues.
While it's too late to completely abolish parties (hell, it was too late when Washington first delivered this speech), I think it's a good read that encourages thinking for yourself rather than for a party. If EVERYONE, including the "right" did that... well, who knows?
Here is the entire address, if anyone cares to give it a look.
I'm a straight white man from 'Middle America' close to the same age as harmonic. If there's a massive, ravenous and implacable army of liberal SJWs intent on attacking and shaming me for being a white man, every second of every day, day after day after day, I sure haven't noticed much of it. Anybody else?
author=Solitayre
Anybody else?
Reductio ad absurdum. Also, no one is going to say yes to your question. It was not asked for the purposes of genuine inquiry. It was you making a claim that it simply never happens based on anecdotes and using the favorable liberal environment here as strength-in-numbers back up.
Red Nova, good and interesting post. Good read.
author=harmonicauthor=SolitayreReductio ad absurdum. Also, no one is going to say yes to your question. It was not asked for the purposes of genuine inquiry. It was you making a claim that it simply never happens and using the favorable liberal environment here as strength-in-numbers back up.
Anybody else?
If you think nobody here will say they see those dratted SJWs around I think you're mistaken.
author=harmonicWhat more is there to say? Twenty-three pages of the same back and forth tripe and this thread still hasn't been canned. Even if most people are remaining civil, you're fooling yourself if you expect or believe that legitimate discussion is ongoing here.author=MagiSome really high quality discourse up in here.
useless post
You can keep up with your pretense of discourse, but I hope everybody else will wise up and bow out now.
Housekeeping
3571
I live in Austin, which is basically Portland in Texas, but, yeah, I haven't seen that here to a significant degree. Maybe that kind of thing gets tempered out by Texasness, but whatever.
And, I do agree that the idea of privilege as being tied to ethnicity needs to be dialed back a bit and attributed more to economic circumstances. But, we're not removed far enough from the Civil Rights Movement to say that privilege straight-up doesn't exist.
My brother told me an interesting anecdote. He was in South Carolina (or another southern state--not sure which) and was up early because the plane fucked up his internal clock. At the hotel breakfast bar, which was attended by a young black man, they had a strict policy about not serving breakfast until 6:00 AM. While my brother was waiting, an older white guy who was in town for a NASCAR event went to get some cereal. The attendant stopped him and said that the breakfast bar wasn't open for another ten minutes. After complaining, the man had to sit next to my brother and wait for a few tense minutes.
My brother's observation about this was that, at some point in that guy's lifetime, he would have been able to backhand the attendant, force him to pour his cereal, and no one would have done anything to stop him. Having that power removed from you overnight must have been a pretty big shell shock, and I don't think you would ever forget that.
That internalized racism can still come out in the right circumstances, like if you're hiring people and want to filter out "undesirables." I think white privilege exists in that regard. It's not something people should be shamed over from birth, and it doesn't mean that a reversal needs to occur and white people need to bend over backwards all the time, but it doesn't mean that there's no substance to it.
And, I do agree that the idea of privilege as being tied to ethnicity needs to be dialed back a bit and attributed more to economic circumstances. But, we're not removed far enough from the Civil Rights Movement to say that privilege straight-up doesn't exist.
My brother told me an interesting anecdote. He was in South Carolina (or another southern state--not sure which) and was up early because the plane fucked up his internal clock. At the hotel breakfast bar, which was attended by a young black man, they had a strict policy about not serving breakfast until 6:00 AM. While my brother was waiting, an older white guy who was in town for a NASCAR event went to get some cereal. The attendant stopped him and said that the breakfast bar wasn't open for another ten minutes. After complaining, the man had to sit next to my brother and wait for a few tense minutes.
My brother's observation about this was that, at some point in that guy's lifetime, he would have been able to backhand the attendant, force him to pour his cereal, and no one would have done anything to stop him. Having that power removed from you overnight must have been a pretty big shell shock, and I don't think you would ever forget that.
That internalized racism can still come out in the right circumstances, like if you're hiring people and want to filter out "undesirables." I think white privilege exists in that regard. It's not something people should be shamed over from birth, and it doesn't mean that a reversal needs to occur and white people need to bend over backwards all the time, but it doesn't mean that there's no substance to it.
Sounds like shots fired at SS, sounds like fun times ahead to eat dog food
Also the latest Captain Planet villain Orange Cake looks like they're gonna start asking questions of the "Are you now, or have you ever been, involved with climate change?" kind. I'm betting next up is determining that we have enough pictures of national parks and it's time to strip mine them all!
You gotta wait until midnight then yell "Skeleton Robocop Warriors!" into the mirror three times then a woman with dyed hair appears and flips you off. Depending on the amount of saliva you take beforehand you might even see two or three! I hear it's such a traumatizing event comparable to that of being placed in a concentration camp or being attacked by white supremacists!
Also the latest Captain Planet villain Orange Cake looks like they're gonna start asking questions of the "Are you now, or have you ever been, involved with climate change?" kind. I'm betting next up is determining that we have enough pictures of national parks and it's time to strip mine them all!
author=Solitayre
I'm a straight white man from 'Middle America' close to the same age as harmonic. If there's a massive, ravenous and implacable army of liberal SJWs intent on attacking and shaming me for being a white man, every second of every day, day after day after day, I sure haven't noticed much of it. Anybody else?
You gotta wait until midnight then yell "Skeleton Robocop Warriors!" into the mirror three times then a woman with dyed hair appears and flips you off. Depending on the amount of saliva you take beforehand you might even see two or three! I hear it's such a traumatizing event comparable to that of being placed in a concentration camp or being attacked by white supremacists!
SnowOwl
5188
@Housekeeping
If anyones a racist, it's your brother. First of all, he seems to assume that just because an old white guy had to wait a couple of minutes for his breakfast, he would want to slap that poor, poor black guy.
Second, nothing in his story warrants any kind of mention of the skin color of anyone involved.
Third, his observation that that old guy has some kind of internalized racism is just assumptions. It's not a change that happened overnight, it happened over many years. Even if we assume that old guy was a racist at some point and went around slapping black guys, he had plenty of time to change.
All his story does is promote racism. I'd suggest he stops telling it.
If anyones a racist, it's your brother. First of all, he seems to assume that just because an old white guy had to wait a couple of minutes for his breakfast, he would want to slap that poor, poor black guy.
Second, nothing in his story warrants any kind of mention of the skin color of anyone involved.
Third, his observation that that old guy has some kind of internalized racism is just assumptions. It's not a change that happened overnight, it happened over many years. Even if we assume that old guy was a racist at some point and went around slapping black guys, he had plenty of time to change.
All his story does is promote racism. I'd suggest he stops telling it.
