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WHAT ARE YOUR OPINIONS ON THE RECENT PEWDIEPIE CONTRYVERSY?
Posts
TangledLion
618
TangledLion
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ClosePersonally as someone proud of, and in tune with his Jewish heritage, and not necessarily a fan of The big PDP I found the backlash toward him ridiculous from the beginning, as it was a joke to see what ridiculous lengths people would go to for just 5 dollars.
I will admit he may have gone too far in it, as while it did not upset me, I understand that it could trigger some terrible memories for some, but I feel it is no reason to separate him from his network and cancel the second season of his big show and he definitely does not deserve to be labeled Anti-Semitic for it.
EDIT: Just Realized some of my poor wording And wanted to specify before it gave the wrong idea, By "I feel it is no reason to separate him from his network and cancel the second season of his big show" I don't mean that I think Maker does not have the right, and that I don't understand their reasoning, more that were I in their position I would have handled this differently. I understand that they are completely in their rights as a business to do so, I just do not agree with it.
I will admit he may have gone too far in it, as while it did not upset me, I understand that it could trigger some terrible memories for some, but I feel it is no reason to separate him from his network and cancel the second season of his big show and he definitely does not deserve to be labeled Anti-Semitic for it.
EDIT: Just Realized some of my poor wording And wanted to specify before it gave the wrong idea, By "I feel it is no reason to separate him from his network and cancel the second season of his big show" I don't mean that I think Maker does not have the right, and that I don't understand their reasoning, more that were I in their position I would have handled this differently. I understand that they are completely in their rights as a business to do so, I just do not agree with it.
I don't really think there's a meaningful distinction between someone who makes racist jokes and someone who is genuinely racist. In order to be okay with making the jokes, you have to think of them as acceptable on some level. If he didn't want to be labelled racist, then he shouldn't have indulged in racist humor.
TangledLion
618
I See what you are saying, but I don't Nessisarally Agree. I feel that there are several levels of racial Bias, and only the upper levels are ok to consider Racist, otherwise it is easy to argue that everyone is racest. Plus the another issue I have is that, as I have said, I'm of Jewish decent on my mother's side(Enough to be legally be considered completely Jewish in most, but not all circles due to a number of complications and technicalities) However I enjoy many jokes that involve Jewish stereotypes in a "This is so Me" way, Is that the same as me dropping the Jewish Equivalent of the N-Bomb? Or am I exempt from being Racist against Jews Because I am one? And what of those circles I mentioned where I'm not considered Jewish? Am I inherently Racist toward just them?
Personally, I feel implied intent and context matters, the one with the sign was followed up by a "Subscribe to Keemstar" a man who is known on the Youtube scene to have made many racist statements unironically, the context seems to imply that it was making fun of Keemstar's Racest tendencies. The One with the fake Jesus guy seemed to be making fun of the Anti-Semitism wrapped up in some Christian doctrine even to this day (Or maybe even referencing the fact that Hitler did indeed identify as Christian, and by the definitions of some denominations of Christianity he would be considered "Innocent in the Eyes of God".), In both of these cases I feel the idea behind them was fairly obvious.
*WHEW* Thanks for the deep reply, It was brief, but it raised all kinds of interesting questions! I feel this is what discussion of sensitive issues should be like, rather than the "I'm Right Because you're wrong, and You're Wrong Because I'm right!" we tend to get all the time with such things.
Personally, I feel implied intent and context matters, the one with the sign was followed up by a "Subscribe to Keemstar" a man who is known on the Youtube scene to have made many racist statements unironically, the context seems to imply that it was making fun of Keemstar's Racest tendencies. The One with the fake Jesus guy seemed to be making fun of the Anti-Semitism wrapped up in some Christian doctrine even to this day (Or maybe even referencing the fact that Hitler did indeed identify as Christian, and by the definitions of some denominations of Christianity he would be considered "Innocent in the Eyes of God".), In both of these cases I feel the idea behind them was fairly obvious.
*WHEW* Thanks for the deep reply, It was brief, but it raised all kinds of interesting questions! I feel this is what discussion of sensitive issues should be like, rather than the "I'm Right Because you're wrong, and You're Wrong Because I'm right!" we tend to get all the time with such things.
Shinan
4314
I don't really follow Pewdiepie but I completely understand why Disney would drop their associating with the guy after making those kinds of jokes/pranks. It doesn't really seem to fit their branding.
I can understand them dropping him as well, especially considering the conflict that the company had to deal with with the belief that Walt Disney had anti-Semetic and racist leanings. They'd be stupid not to when they've fought tooth and nail to try to prove that he wasn't. It would undermine their whole argument and bring up a lot of controversy after it had already died down.
I've never really been a huge fan of PewDiePie or watched much of his stuff, but from what I can tell of the coverage surrounding this, the videos/clips in question were intended to be a satirical commentary on the state of the world today, rather than PDP himself being anti-semitic. Of course, the fact that it's rubbed so many people up the wrong way means that ultimately the intent fell flat, but I'm not sure the reaction is entirely justified.
That said, as Libby said Disney has to look after its own interests first and foremost. Just read that Youtube is cancelling the second season of his show as well.
That said, as Libby said Disney has to look after its own interests first and foremost. Just read that Youtube is cancelling the second season of his show as well.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
I think this video from comedy guru (?) h3h3Productions sums it up from every angle.
Context. Is. Important.
Oh, right. Pewdiepie.
Don't really care, either way.
But yeah, PR is still buzzing so the drop of what-ever-show is easy and justifiable to do. The question of "IS SOMEONE RACIST?!" is pretty meaningless to me by itself. It also implies it's an either or identity as well as some kind of fundamental permanent thing. Which is puzzling to me.
Those jokes are bad taste, whatever the intent behind it is. Does it make someone deeply racist? No, not for me, anyway. Does it mean they may want to think about it some more? Yes, please.
I've done pretty crummy humour before, and so have multiple family members. It can be an easy running gag, tho it's usually always followed by the realization of what you are actually following through in your mind a second later. It's a mixed thing.
How much of an impact it has ultimately depends on the reception, as well as the amount of time and care dedicated to such jokes. Context is important too.
*shrug* Not to mention, after having received such backlash, it is much likely he'll get a deeper understanding of the matter simply because he has to deal with all of this.
The fact it is such a buzzing question just makes me feel it's an overblown thing, putting the focus more strongly because it's a famous person in question. Which does not justify or make anything "good", naturally. It just means I don't subscribe to putting so much value onto that fact.
Tho then again it's an influence on a lot of teens n all. It's tricky. At least for me it's outside my personal influence or care *chuckle*
Don't really care, either way.
But yeah, PR is still buzzing so the drop of what-ever-show is easy and justifiable to do. The question of "IS SOMEONE RACIST?!" is pretty meaningless to me by itself. It also implies it's an either or identity as well as some kind of fundamental permanent thing. Which is puzzling to me.
Those jokes are bad taste, whatever the intent behind it is. Does it make someone deeply racist? No, not for me, anyway. Does it mean they may want to think about it some more? Yes, please.
I've done pretty crummy humour before, and so have multiple family members. It can be an easy running gag, tho it's usually always followed by the realization of what you are actually following through in your mind a second later. It's a mixed thing.
How much of an impact it has ultimately depends on the reception, as well as the amount of time and care dedicated to such jokes. Context is important too.
*shrug* Not to mention, after having received such backlash, it is much likely he'll get a deeper understanding of the matter simply because he has to deal with all of this.
The fact it is such a buzzing question just makes me feel it's an overblown thing, putting the focus more strongly because it's a famous person in question. Which does not justify or make anything "good", naturally. It just means I don't subscribe to putting so much value onto that fact.
Tho then again it's an influence on a lot of teens n all. It's tricky. At least for me it's outside my personal influence or care *chuckle*
Dyhalto
7536
author=Sailerius
I don't really think there's a meaningful distinction between someone who makes racist jokes and someone who is genuinely racist. In order to be okay with making the jokes, you have to think of them as acceptable on some level.
Not true.
Men in the company of other men make women jokes all the time, and it's the same with groups of women. That doesn't mean everybody involved is misogynistic/misandric. There's just a certain brand of humor that involves broad categorizations, and given the current climate of political correctness, it's not a brand that enjoys public appreciation.
That said, I don't particularly care about PDP or his show/antics. I don't even know the details of what he did. I just hope it doesn't turn into a Mel Gibson moment where one single minute of stupidity undoes an individual's entire career. "Hey guys, it turns out Braveheart was a shitty movie, and the original Mad Max trilogy aren't classics anymore."
I'm a fan of Occam's Racist, or in this case Occam's anti-Semite, and it works here too. People love working backwards to justify shit. Disney did the right thing and good riddance.
Jeroen_Sol
Nothing reveals Humanity so well as the games it plays. A game of betrayal, where the most suspicious person is brutally murdered? How savage.
3885
It's not working backwards to justify shit if things are only racist (or anti-semitic in this case) when taken out of context.
Do I particularly care for Pewdiepie? No. Do I think the jokes he made are tasteless? Yes, even if they were just making fun of other people, himself, and society in general (Not of Jews). Do I think he's a raging anti-semite? No, and one look at the context of the jokes should tell you the same.
Do I particularly care for Pewdiepie? No. Do I think the jokes he made are tasteless? Yes, even if they were just making fun of other people, himself, and society in general (Not of Jews). Do I think he's a raging anti-semite? No, and one look at the context of the jokes should tell you the same.
tl;dr:
I think it's more useful to think of X-ism as an action rather than an identity
Like that's pretty much how I think about it too. Sure, there are people who these ideas (whether it's racism, sexism, cissexism, whatever) are an important part of their identity. They might qualify for the "upper levels" of racism you mentioned earlier. But it's a lot easier to have talks about racism or whatever if you think of it as "the thing you are doing/saying is racist" rather than "you are a racist"
Intent and impact are separate things
no matter his intentions, he's done some antisemitic stuff. Like I don't care about PDP and don't follow his stuff, but a cursory glance of his wiki page went over some of it. Heck, he's even apologized and said multiple times he is not antisemeitic and he does not support hate groups.
What has the impact been? Well, he upset some people, but the whole "do offensive things to shock people" seems to be a big part of his Brand Image. It's had personal consequences -- he's lost these media deals -- but the guy is a literal millionaire. He could go live in a cave for the rest of his life in comfort and luxury, surrounded by people who are willing to support him.
I'm more concerned about the impact on other people. you mention that yeah, it could bring up bad memories for folks. Hurt feelings suck and i'm not saying that's unimportant, but I'm more concerned with:
1) people who think Nazis aren't something to be treated seriously and
2) people who are literally Nazis or sympathetic to Nazis
In a lot of the internet communities i've blown through in the years, Nazis and nazi imagery are just a joke. I've seen a lot of "no one still thinks this" or "very few people actually think this" or "making fun of it means people won't take it seriously" as reasons given for why it's okay to use those ironically or as a joke. The thought that nazis are even relevant can be seen as Ridiculous
but uh, I think there's a good case to be made that fascism is alive and well, and groups like neo-nazis have been around ever since nazi germany stopped being a thing. Like i literally study history (caveat - with an emphasis in U.S. history) and am confident saying that for the past 100 years groups like these have always existed, it's just the names and publicity that has been changing
And I think there's been an increase in the publicity these kinds of groups are getting -- but not neccessarily an increase in bad publicity
This is probably a separate topic, but the main point I want to make with this is that people (in general) should cool it with the "ironic" or "satirical" Nazi-related jokes. There are so many other sources of laughs and so many other topics you can use for satire, it's not hard to pick something else
Annnd the big reason I think it's a topic with real potential to harm others is because of group 2, people who are actually nazis or sympathetic towards them. In an atmosphere where it's okay to "ironically" joke about these things, people who actually hold these views are given a spot where they can "joke" and those jokes can be a foot-in-the-door for other persuasive tactics.
"it's just a joke" doesn't matter when looking at impact, and i'm looking at impact here
in my casual browsing of what the heck happened, I came across several people pointing out an instance of an actual "alt-right" (THEY ARE NAZIS) website praising PDP and expressing support. because I hate enjoying my break I checked out the place, and yeah. That sure is some nazis. I even read through the comments on several articles because i hate fun just that much. many were happy that he made such content even as "jokes" because it got more people (and especially more young people) to see these ideas in an entertaining context.
Or, in summary:
yeah. it's free publicity.
like there's a lot of vile things I could quote from said website, but i don't want to give any more web traffic than I already have. I will spotlight this comment, however, b/c it's someone praising the potential influence PDP has and several other people point out that the backlash he's facing could get them more support. (which is kind of another topic, but it's another reason i think it's important to separate "did X-ist thing" from "is an X-ist" in most - but not all - cases. I just don't think that matters when looking at impact)
The thing intent affects, for me, is how i might respond to someone. Someone who intentionally does a hurtful thing vs someone who unintentionally does a hurtful thing will get different responses, but at the end of the day they still did a hurtful thing
He apologized, yeah, but what does it do? the way it played out, it keeps centering the conversation on "is he racist?" or "is he antisemitic?" or "does he support these groups?" when I don't think that's really important. plus his apology contains SO MUCH language people use to dodge just saying "I did something wrong and something that hurt people, I won't do it again". that is one of the reasons I don't trust apologies (but this also touches on a separate topic)
- I think it's more useful to think of X-ism as an action rather than an identity
- Intent and impact are separate things
- "it's just a joke" doesn't matter when looking at impact, and i'm looking at impact here
I think it's more useful to think of X-ism as an action rather than an identity
author=Kylaila
The question of "IS SOMEONE RACIST?!" is pretty meaningless to me by itself. It also implies it's an either or identity as well as some kind of fundamental permanent thing.
Like that's pretty much how I think about it too. Sure, there are people who these ideas (whether it's racism, sexism, cissexism, whatever) are an important part of their identity. They might qualify for the "upper levels" of racism you mentioned earlier. But it's a lot easier to have talks about racism or whatever if you think of it as "the thing you are doing/saying is racist" rather than "you are a racist"
Intent and impact are separate things
no matter his intentions, he's done some antisemitic stuff. Like I don't care about PDP and don't follow his stuff, but a cursory glance of his wiki page went over some of it. Heck, he's even apologized and said multiple times he is not antisemeitic and he does not support hate groups.
What has the impact been? Well, he upset some people, but the whole "do offensive things to shock people" seems to be a big part of his Brand Image. It's had personal consequences -- he's lost these media deals -- but the guy is a literal millionaire. He could go live in a cave for the rest of his life in comfort and luxury, surrounded by people who are willing to support him.
I'm more concerned about the impact on other people. you mention that yeah, it could bring up bad memories for folks. Hurt feelings suck and i'm not saying that's unimportant, but I'm more concerned with:
1) people who think Nazis aren't something to be treated seriously and
2) people who are literally Nazis or sympathetic to Nazis
In a lot of the internet communities i've blown through in the years, Nazis and nazi imagery are just a joke. I've seen a lot of "no one still thinks this" or "very few people actually think this" or "making fun of it means people won't take it seriously" as reasons given for why it's okay to use those ironically or as a joke. The thought that nazis are even relevant can be seen as Ridiculous
but uh, I think there's a good case to be made that fascism is alive and well, and groups like neo-nazis have been around ever since nazi germany stopped being a thing. Like i literally study history (caveat - with an emphasis in U.S. history) and am confident saying that for the past 100 years groups like these have always existed, it's just the names and publicity that has been changing
And I think there's been an increase in the publicity these kinds of groups are getting -- but not neccessarily an increase in bad publicity
This is probably a separate topic, but the main point I want to make with this is that people (in general) should cool it with the "ironic" or "satirical" Nazi-related jokes. There are so many other sources of laughs and so many other topics you can use for satire, it's not hard to pick something else
Annnd the big reason I think it's a topic with real potential to harm others is because of group 2, people who are actually nazis or sympathetic towards them. In an atmosphere where it's okay to "ironically" joke about these things, people who actually hold these views are given a spot where they can "joke" and those jokes can be a foot-in-the-door for other persuasive tactics.
"it's just a joke" doesn't matter when looking at impact, and i'm looking at impact here
in my casual browsing of what the heck happened, I came across several people pointing out an instance of an actual "alt-right" (THEY ARE NAZIS) website praising PDP and expressing support. because I hate enjoying my break I checked out the place, and yeah. That sure is some nazis. I even read through the comments on several articles because i hate fun just that much. many were happy that he made such content even as "jokes" because it got more people (and especially more young people) to see these ideas in an entertaining context.
Or, in summary:
Oh this is gorgeous!Free publicity!
yeah. it's free publicity.
like there's a lot of vile things I could quote from said website, but i don't want to give any more web traffic than I already have. I will spotlight this comment, however, b/c it's someone praising the potential influence PDP has and several other people point out that the backlash he's facing could get them more support. (which is kind of another topic, but it's another reason i think it's important to separate "did X-ist thing" from "is an X-ist" in most - but not all - cases. I just don't think that matters when looking at impact)
The thing intent affects, for me, is how i might respond to someone. Someone who intentionally does a hurtful thing vs someone who unintentionally does a hurtful thing will get different responses, but at the end of the day they still did a hurtful thing
He apologized, yeah, but what does it do? the way it played out, it keeps centering the conversation on "is he racist?" or "is he antisemitic?" or "does he support these groups?" when I don't think that's really important. plus his apology contains SO MUCH language people use to dodge just saying "I did something wrong and something that hurt people, I won't do it again". that is one of the reasons I don't trust apologies (but this also touches on a separate topic)
That's interesting, tho I think video only posts are more reserved for welp.
Don't overdo it is all, yeah? : )
And I'm with pentagonbuddy, good stuff. Thank you for taking the time to put it together, haha. I know I didn't care enough to, so I appreciate you did.
Don't overdo it is all, yeah? : )
And I'm with pentagonbuddy, good stuff. Thank you for taking the time to put it together, haha. I know I didn't care enough to, so I appreciate you did.
the underlying question that is being asked isn't 'is he anti-semetic?' or 'is he racist?', it's really 'should we ostracize him forever over this?'
it is also meaningless, but geared towards 'HOW SHOULD WE ACT TOWARDS HIM AND HIS WORKS NOW?!'
and think that is part of why you get the response/play down of 'it's a joke' responses. because ostracizing someone forever over this gives a gut-feel of being extreme.
Personally, for me, it just means that I continue to not-watch his videos, like I already don't.
it is also meaningless, but geared towards 'HOW SHOULD WE ACT TOWARDS HIM AND HIS WORKS NOW?!'
and think that is part of why you get the response/play down of 'it's a joke' responses. because ostracizing someone forever over this gives a gut-feel of being extreme.
Personally, for me, it just means that I continue to not-watch his videos, like I already don't.
Quoting is hard on mobile but basically what PentagonBuddy said, the intent vs impact part and closing paragraph in particular.
Act like shit, get treated like shit.
Act like shit, get treated like shit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwk1DogcPmU
This whole matter pisses me off to no end. I'm talking about how it was handled by the media.
This whole matter pisses me off to no end. I'm talking about how it was handled by the media.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=SaileriusThe idea that racism is laughable is the precise opposite of the idea that it's legitimate. I can't think of anything that de-legitimizes an idea more than treating it as so absurd that it's considered a joke.
I don't really think there's a meaningful distinction between someone who makes racist jokes and someone who is genuinely racist. In order to be okay with making the jokes, you have to think of them as acceptable on some level.
This is like saying "If you make a joke about someone being a witch (for example, because their gaming skills are unnaturally good), you must be okay with religious persecution on some level." It does not fucking make sense. Do you understand how jokes work?
I had like ten more paragraphs typed up, but then I noticed that every side of this argument was assuming that he obviously didn't actually mean what he said. As long as people are arguing about whether it's okay to say something you don't mean, and not arguing about whether we should be killing all the jews, I think everything will turn out fine.
author=Sailerius
I don't really think there's a meaningful distinction between someone who makes racist jokes and someone who is genuinely racist.
I mostly agree with this but there's a caveat. When making a joke, read the room. Example: If you go into a gathering of sexual assault victim and start making rape jokes and they throw you out, you don't get to say they're too sensitive and can't take a joke. You can't say they misinterpreted you and took you out of context. The problem was you. You didn't read the room.
If you have an audience of millions and are associated with a family brand and start making anti-semetic 'jokes', and people take issue with it, the problem isn't everyone else. It's you. Know your audience.
Disney is right to not want him associated with their brand.
