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HOW MUCH HAND-HOLDING IS NECESSARY?
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MoonWolfV
3001
MoonWolfV
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CloseIn the game which I'm currently remaking, there are around 20 available characters who you can find and recruit, only three new characters join if the player doesn't do anything outside of the main plot line.
If the player doesn't explore, they'll be without a white mage, a boosted up white mage, elemental magic users, a thief, etc. Should I create a page for the game simply indicating the general location to find these characters and the type of character they are, or does this make things too easy? Not having the characters listed strongly encourages exploration.
Healing items are easy enough to come by as most enemies drop them, and if an early quest is performed MP restoring items can be purchased anytime outside of battle. I've also scattered healing items around in the dungeons so far, to try to compensate for those who haven't found the characters with healing abilities.
If the player doesn't explore, they'll be without a white mage, a boosted up white mage, elemental magic users, a thief, etc. Should I create a page for the game simply indicating the general location to find these characters and the type of character they are, or does this make things too easy? Not having the characters listed strongly encourages exploration.
Healing items are easy enough to come by as most enemies drop them, and if an early quest is performed MP restoring items can be purchased anytime outside of battle. I've also scattered healing items around in the dungeons so far, to try to compensate for those who haven't found the characters with healing abilities.
Personally I think if your partner’s love language is touch, a lot of hand holding is necessary for a healthy relationship.
Regards to the game though I think it would be fine as long as,
1) The players aren’t locked out of getting those extra party members at any point.
2) You have plenty of NPCs who hint you in the direction of the extra party members.
If the player is struggling with a new area I think their first instinct (or mine at least) would be to go back and explore previous areas further, or try to complete more sidequests. If they’re having difficulty they’ll naturally think they might’ve missed something anyway.
Regards to the game though I think it would be fine as long as,
1) The players aren’t locked out of getting those extra party members at any point.
2) You have plenty of NPCs who hint you in the direction of the extra party members.
If the player is struggling with a new area I think their first instinct (or mine at least) would be to go back and explore previous areas further, or try to complete more sidequests. If they’re having difficulty they’ll naturally think they might’ve missed something anyway.
MoonWolfV
3001
Well, the only way you can tell if an NPC is recruitable is if their portrait is shown when engaging with them, and even that isn't always a guarantee (Plenty of other NPCs have been given faces as the game has gone along.)
Only one character is actually mentioned so far, saying that this old guy was taken to the prison as a political prisoner, and that's as far as it goes. Other than that, the player is expected to go off the beaten track, not much other help is really given.
Maybe a page letting people know where these characters have their haunts might be a good idea and to serve as a starting point. Thanks Frogge :)
Only one character is actually mentioned so far, saying that this old guy was taken to the prison as a political prisoner, and that's as far as it goes. Other than that, the player is expected to go off the beaten track, not much other help is really given.
Maybe a page letting people know where these characters have their haunts might be a good idea and to serve as a starting point. Thanks Frogge :)
A number of opinions can be found here, as well as the obvious joke. Having a cast of 20 playable characters, but only having three as automatic recruits feels a bit off to me? Though, I'd have to take a closer look again at the typical ratio of automatic recruits to non-automatic recruits in the Suikoden games, with their 108 Stars of Destiny to say with more certainty. Though, there is an "108 bonus" in Suikoden games that encourage recruiting all the Stars, so, that might be something you may want to consider.
author=MoonWolfV
Only one character is actually mentioned so far, saying that this old guy was taken to the prison as a political prisoner, and that's as far as it goes. Other than that, the player is expected to go off the beaten track, not much other help is really given.
Maybe a page letting people know where these characters have their haunts might be a good idea and to serve as a starting point.
This might be a little too obtuse, the player shouldn't really have to refer to something outside of the game to be hinted towards recruitable characters. It will also make your NPCs more purposeful if they give you hints like "the old mage who lives on the hill has been having some trouble lately, if you care to make your way off the path to Big City" or "I hear a thief has a hideout somewhere within the forest, but no one has been able to find him past that passage with all the brambles."
It's still a reward for exploration and talking to NPCs if they push you in the direction of greater rewards. It definitely sounds like you can pull off what you're trying to do without having it be hand-holding. It's just that you wanna give the players nudges, without outright spelling things out for them.
Does the game do anything to nudge the player into knowing that recruiting is both a thing they can do and maybe should do? Either directly or indirectly?
Depending how hands-on you want this to be, you could take one of the characters who joins through plot, and instead make the player have to recruit them to progress the story, to kind of make sure the player knows that recruitment an option. Or you could even just tell the player directly, in one way or the other "There are a bunch of recruitable characters, you may need their help to complete your quest."
Of course, how hand-holdy you want to go is very much up to you, some people love obscure games that don't tell you anything. For others, they feel that those are more annoying, especially for obscure games with no info online. If you wanted to go really obsure for those who wanted it but put the info up on the gamepage somewhere like you mentioned, that might be a good idea in that specific case. But yeah otherwise I'd hint more at it in the game itself :D
Depending how hands-on you want this to be, you could take one of the characters who joins through plot, and instead make the player have to recruit them to progress the story, to kind of make sure the player knows that recruitment an option. Or you could even just tell the player directly, in one way or the other "There are a bunch of recruitable characters, you may need their help to complete your quest."
Of course, how hand-holdy you want to go is very much up to you, some people love obscure games that don't tell you anything. For others, they feel that those are more annoying, especially for obscure games with no info online. If you wanted to go really obsure for those who wanted it but put the info up on the gamepage somewhere like you mentioned, that might be a good idea in that specific case. But yeah otherwise I'd hint more at it in the game itself :D
I feel that players might be smart and figure out that characters can be recruited if they stumble onto one or two situations where characters can be recruited. When that happens, they might get it, and will actively look for more. An RPG is a type of game that people play in order to do just that.
If you think about how a player's curiosity will interact with the game, you can plan for it, and keep making little things (graphics that look different from usual, or textual hints) or events that will guide players looking for something to activate. Then, they will start to understand just what playing this RPG is about (finding character recruitment situations), and they will do that. 17 characters to find and recruit sounds good, because it gives players who figure this out a lot to look for and do.
Will some people not see that characters can be recruited? Yeah. But, if you've laid out adequate hints which are able to capture players' curiosity, their failure to follow those hints shouldn't be your problem. You need to take care of the people who are actually playing your game at the level that you want them to be playing it. (You can't force people to like something.)
What's an "adequate" hint, now... I think you might want to approach 2 layers of hint. One more subtle, and then, something more obvious that refers to the first hint, to help it get noticed. Players are looking for clues for things to do in RPGs, and will usually be receptive to hints, because they realize that a programmer had to put something there purposefully for them to stumble upon it.
If you think about how a player's curiosity will interact with the game, you can plan for it, and keep making little things (graphics that look different from usual, or textual hints) or events that will guide players looking for something to activate. Then, they will start to understand just what playing this RPG is about (finding character recruitment situations), and they will do that. 17 characters to find and recruit sounds good, because it gives players who figure this out a lot to look for and do.
Will some people not see that characters can be recruited? Yeah. But, if you've laid out adequate hints which are able to capture players' curiosity, their failure to follow those hints shouldn't be your problem. You need to take care of the people who are actually playing your game at the level that you want them to be playing it. (You can't force people to like something.)
What's an "adequate" hint, now... I think you might want to approach 2 layers of hint. One more subtle, and then, something more obvious that refers to the first hint, to help it get noticed. Players are looking for clues for things to do in RPGs, and will usually be receptive to hints, because they realize that a programmer had to put something there purposefully for them to stumble upon it.
MoonWolfV
3001
Referring to Unity's and Zachary_Braun's comments, very little information is given about recruiting. Players are generally expected too check out the various buildings and locations in the game, and if a character has a "face". It's a general indication that they have some task for you to accomplish for them, before they join you.
I've made a page for those who might just be wondering where on earth these characters are. Some are obvious, others are not. Like the wizard and lady vampire who live up in the mountains, where it simply states "They live in the eastern mountains". So I'm trying to balance it out, by not making it too easy but giving a general indication on where to look. If you're playing the game without looking at the page, you only know about these two if you decide to follow the path which leads to the mountains. I've included a spoilers warning at the top of the page as well.
I've made a page for those who might just be wondering where on earth these characters are. Some are obvious, others are not. Like the wizard and lady vampire who live up in the mountains, where it simply states "They live in the eastern mountains". So I'm trying to balance it out, by not making it too easy but giving a general indication on where to look. If you're playing the game without looking at the page, you only know about these two if you decide to follow the path which leads to the mountains. I've included a spoilers warning at the top of the page as well.
author=Lascivaware
If your game is for gamers who enjoy retro difficulty like mine, they may prefer the aha moments.
Yeah, 100%, it's about making the game you want to make, and having things be oldschool obtuse is fun in it's own way!
author=MoonWolfV
Referring to Unity's and Zachary_Braun's comments, very little information is given about recruiting. Players are generally expected too check out the various buildings and locations in the game, and if a character has a "face". It's a general indication that they have some task for you to accomplish for them, before they join you.
I've made a page for those who might just be wondering where on earth these characters are. Some are obvious, others are not. Like the wizard and lady vampire who live up in the mountains, where it simply states "They live in the eastern mountains". So I'm trying to balance it out, by not making it too easy but giving a general indication on where to look. If you're playing the game without looking at the page, you only know about these two if you decide to follow the path which leads to the mountains. I've included a spoilers warning at the top of the page as well.
I think this is a good compromise. If people go to the page looking for help, giving them some hints to get them going sounds like a smart way to do it.
Crystalgate
694
author=MoonWolfV
Referring to Unity's and Zachary_Braun's comments, very little information is given about recruiting. Players are generally expected too check out the various buildings and locations in the game, and if a character has a "face". It's a general indication that they have some task for you to accomplish for them, before they join you.
I think one question here is how you handle players who don't explore. It sounds to me like players are expected to explore. How much exploring is expected and how willing are you to straight out tell players who don't want to explore enough that your game is not for them?
Take a look at Path of Exile skill tree: https://www.pathofexile.com/fullscreen-passive-skill-tree/3.21.2/AAAABgAAAAAA
A lot of players only play until they open the skill tree, which usually happens within five minutes, and then they quit the game forever. The developers of the game are currently developing PoE 2. When asked if they intend to ease players into the skill tree a bit this time, the CEO responded that they don't intend to make any change in this regard as their target audience are people who look at the skill tree and thinks it's awesome.
The amount of hand holding your game requires goes down a lot if you are willing to tell players who are not willing to explore that your game is not for them. In that case, I advice you to think of how you best tell the players that they should quit. In the case of Path of Exile, the game tells the players to quit when they open the skill tree by simple showing them the skill tree. If however you think that it would still be nice if players who are less happy about exploring and tend to beeline for the plot progression can still enjoy your game, then you will have to hand hold them at least towards a bare minimum.
Wow, that's really interesting! I guess showing players "this is what the game is about, take it or leave it" is just as valid an approach as anything else! And damn that skill tree is intimidating haha
RedMask
1139
Before making my game public I listened to so many online who made fun of hand holding in games like Navi in Zelda Ocarina of Time.
But after putting out my game I understand now that hand holding is very much needed for many players. So, yes put in a lot of hand holding but I guess try not to make it feel annoying.
But after putting out my game I understand now that hand holding is very much needed for many players. So, yes put in a lot of hand holding but I guess try not to make it feel annoying.
Darken
3952
Yeah idk if it's just a matter of tutorial/general UX, but it's also important to actually relay that stuff in the marketing/vibe not to just make your game enticing but to let players know "what they are signing up for" so that it's less enticing to people who were never going to play the game in the first place. Though I find that some people don't look at the description/features/trailer/screenshots and will still refund because of it, but thems the breaks.
No one really told me before playing that Chrono Cross was an RPG with 50 characters and part of the design is going out of your way to find and try them out in a quantity over quality way. I think that really impacted the love it or hate it formula rather than not being handholdy enough (or that it's just not chrono trigger). The mindset the player has going into can be really important and affects the onboarding process, expectations, motivation and even competence so much. I feel like appreciating a series like the SaGa games isn't just a matter of better tutorials/hints but going into it knowing what the games actually are. Which is a classic case for any FF fan jumping over to the weirder niche squaresoft titles.
If a single player gets roadblocked at some point in the game, it could just be an anomaly and not something to automatically address unless its like 50% of your playtests or something crazy, and even then it might just not be the right audience. I would also not try to assume ahead of time that players might miss x or y until playtesting because sometimes people end up more observant than you think. For various reasons I generally think it's better to react than to overcorrect, the only con being that it can cost more dev time and iteration.
No one really told me before playing that Chrono Cross was an RPG with 50 characters and part of the design is going out of your way to find and try them out in a quantity over quality way. I think that really impacted the love it or hate it formula rather than not being handholdy enough (or that it's just not chrono trigger). The mindset the player has going into can be really important and affects the onboarding process, expectations, motivation and even competence so much. I feel like appreciating a series like the SaGa games isn't just a matter of better tutorials/hints but going into it knowing what the games actually are. Which is a classic case for any FF fan jumping over to the weirder niche squaresoft titles.
If a single player gets roadblocked at some point in the game, it could just be an anomaly and not something to automatically address unless its like 50% of your playtests or something crazy, and even then it might just not be the right audience. I would also not try to assume ahead of time that players might miss x or y until playtesting because sometimes people end up more observant than you think. For various reasons I generally think it's better to react than to overcorrect, the only con being that it can cost more dev time and iteration.
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