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SO I COMPLETELY HATE PUZZLES.
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Feldschlacht IV
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CloseThe only games I really tolerate puzzles in are Wild Arms, and Alundra, and in other RPGs they're fine if they're not too many of them or too vague. Other than that I can't stand puzzles and I only tolerate them and I hate programming them even more. Is this bad?
I like puzzles now and then to mix the gameplay up a bit, but nothing overly complicated.
I'm not good at coming up with complicated puzzles.
I'm not good at coming up with complicated puzzles.
prexus
309
Puzzles absolutely must fit with gameplay properly. I am really stinkin' tired of amateur RM* games having puzzles like "Activate the Pressure Valves" or "Hit the switches in order" bullshit in the middle of an arbitrary cave.
Other than that, most puzzles are mind-numbingly boring. Agreed.
Other than that, most puzzles are mind-numbingly boring. Agreed.
Absolutely freaking agree.
All the hype about 'OMG puzzles are teh best dunegon design' was so confusing to me.
Now if we're talking about puzzles in the grand scheme, like the whole dungeon is a puzzle/maze type thing, not just a 100 yard dash with 5 random encounters, a boss, and a treasure chest at the end, it's fine. Zelda games do this quite well.
But the little mini-games that seem to have nothing to do with the gameplay, as prexus said, no thank you.
All the hype about 'OMG puzzles are teh best dunegon design' was so confusing to me.
Now if we're talking about puzzles in the grand scheme, like the whole dungeon is a puzzle/maze type thing, not just a 100 yard dash with 5 random encounters, a boss, and a treasure chest at the end, it's fine. Zelda games do this quite well.
But the little mini-games that seem to have nothing to do with the gameplay, as prexus said, no thank you.
I have never understood how NOT to make a dungeon be just KILL/LOOT, so I am in kentona's area of OMG MAKE BIG PUZZLE WHAT?!?!?!?.
Can we establish a definition for puzzles? Like, does flipping the occasional switch count as a puzzle? Does pushing boxes count as a puzzle? Do trick save points with a real save point hidden among them count as a puzzle?
Can we establish a definition for puzzles? Like, does flipping the occasional switch count as a puzzle? Does pushing boxes count as a puzzle? Do trick save points with a real save point hidden among them count as a puzzle?
Do trick save points with a real save point hidden among them count as a puzzle?This isn't a puzzle. This is just plain evil.
Walk-Battle-Walk-Battle is too boring, so you gotta have something in there to mix things up. Even if the something is just "pull the switches in the right order" or "find the items to go in these slots and it opens the door". It just gives the player something more to aim for than the end of the dungeon.
Yeah but pull switches and find slots and all that bullshit just seems like shit the creator put in the game to cover up for his inability to make interesting dungeons. Hey guess what kids; there are more ways to spice up a dungeon besides arbituary bullshit puzzles that nobody asked for.
Puzzles I've implemented in Hero's Realm:
- Multiparty puzzles where you have to hit switches in order.
- Make all 3 (or 4 or 5) switches face the same direction, with the added gimmick that hitting one switch also flips the switch(es) beside it.
- Push-rock-out-of-the-way puzzles
- Mazes
- A crazy puzzle where you have to return in the day (or night) to progress
- Setting the clock to the correct time puzzle (a la FFVI)
- conveyor belt "puzzles" (more of just figuring out where the arrows are pointing)
- sliding on the ice "puzzles" (just like Chip's Challenge!)
- hidden magic cows and sheep
- Multiparty puzzles where you have to hit switches in order.
- Make all 3 (or 4 or 5) switches face the same direction, with the added gimmick that hitting one switch also flips the switch(es) beside it.
- Push-rock-out-of-the-way puzzles
- Mazes
- A crazy puzzle where you have to return in the day (or night) to progress
- Setting the clock to the correct time puzzle (a la FFVI)
- conveyor belt "puzzles" (more of just figuring out where the arrows are pointing)
- sliding on the ice "puzzles" (just like Chip's Challenge!)
- hidden magic cows and sheep
prexus
309
I have to agree with Feld here. There are way more interesting ways to make a dungeon interesting.
"Dungeon-Wide Hazards" are probably my favorite. This is probably best explained by Super Metroid. There were areas that were completely unnavigable without certain equipment. This posed an interesting challenge, although I think that those areas being completely unnavigable was a mistake. But it illustrates my point. Intense heat in Norfair required you to have the Varia Suit to compensate for the temperature. You took consistent and rapid damage otherwise. Had the damage been lower, or had you limited the ability to move/fight/use abilities as a result of it, you could have posed a more threatening hazard. The same goes for Maridia, entirely water area that you had limited movement and maneuverability. Although you were still able to progress through it with limited success.
Hazards like these pose a more interesting threat, than a bunch of switches that are far enough apart that you are going to run into random encounters so you need to pick them in the right order to avoid the mind-numbingly boring random encounters as best possible.
"Dungeon-Wide Hazards" are probably my favorite. This is probably best explained by Super Metroid. There were areas that were completely unnavigable without certain equipment. This posed an interesting challenge, although I think that those areas being completely unnavigable was a mistake. But it illustrates my point. Intense heat in Norfair required you to have the Varia Suit to compensate for the temperature. You took consistent and rapid damage otherwise. Had the damage been lower, or had you limited the ability to move/fight/use abilities as a result of it, you could have posed a more threatening hazard. The same goes for Maridia, entirely water area that you had limited movement and maneuverability. Although you were still able to progress through it with limited success.
Hazards like these pose a more interesting threat, than a bunch of switches that are far enough apart that you are going to run into random encounters so you need to pick them in the right order to avoid the mind-numbingly boring random encounters as best possible.
I can't make interesting puzzles so I take my fustrations out on the player by making a maze that may or may not include teleporters. See, it involves walking and killing and finding loot while being in a puzzle whose solution is finding the way out! 
I personally like puzzles but fuck "STOP! Puzzle time!" style puzzles. I mean stuff like "You enter a room with a bunch of multicoloured blocks and a locked door. When you do something with those blocks the door magically opens!". I'd much rather prefer "You enter a room and there's a huge chasm and some switches. Flipping switches makes part of a bridge across a chasm appear and dissapear. Make a bridge appear!". At least pretend that the puzzle isn't just an arbitrary challenge and integrate it into the dungeon somehow.
I personally like puzzles but fuck "STOP! Puzzle time!" style puzzles. I mean stuff like "You enter a room with a bunch of multicoloured blocks and a locked door. When you do something with those blocks the door magically opens!". I'd much rather prefer "You enter a room and there's a huge chasm and some switches. Flipping switches makes part of a bridge across a chasm appear and dissapear. Make a bridge appear!". At least pretend that the puzzle isn't just an arbitrary challenge and integrate it into the dungeon somehow.
Erg. I personally hate puzzles in general. Especially the boring ones mentioned earlier - to me, they are just as bad as random encounters and stupid battles. Mixing a bunch of mundane and boring things does not make a game more exciting.
author=kentona link=topic=2834.msg54265#msg54265 date=1231278119Especially when you're made to do it 5 times in a row. *coughCHRONOTRIGGERcough*Do trick save points with a real save point hidden among them count as a puzzle?This isn't a puzzle. This is just plain evil.
Yeah, puzzles out of nowhere were always pretty odd for me, though I can suspend my disbelief for a while. But it was kinda stretching it in The Way where you had caverns that had never been traversed by humans with random switch puzzles in them.
Neophyte
155
RM dungeons are the most boring shit I've EVER played. Most of them are walking from one side of the map to the other with slow walking speeds. Most people have no idea how to create good dungeons, it's really bad.
The idea is to create a dungeon with interactions that support the environment you're in. Puzzles are a good way to do that, as long as they're not the most generic thing ever. They also have to fit into the gameplay, and not feel tacked on. Also, there absolutely HAS to be a reward for completing a puzzle, it can't just be there to mix things up. An example of this is having a treasure chest in sight right across the room but isn't accessible until you complete a certain task or figure out the right way to access it. Alundra and Wild Arms are pretty good at this because in Alundra you could obtain extra life points by figuring the dungeon out, and Wild Arms had areas in the dungeon that were not accessible until you gained more Tool abilities. Metroid games also do this very well.
Basically the idea isn't to just put SWITCH PUZZLE in the middle of a dungeon that feels tacked on and offers no reward other than having you progress deeper into a dungeon. Give them some motivation by teasing them with that purple colored treasure chest across the room, or that Heart Piece to boost their health.
The idea is to create a dungeon with interactions that support the environment you're in. Puzzles are a good way to do that, as long as they're not the most generic thing ever. They also have to fit into the gameplay, and not feel tacked on. Also, there absolutely HAS to be a reward for completing a puzzle, it can't just be there to mix things up. An example of this is having a treasure chest in sight right across the room but isn't accessible until you complete a certain task or figure out the right way to access it. Alundra and Wild Arms are pretty good at this because in Alundra you could obtain extra life points by figuring the dungeon out, and Wild Arms had areas in the dungeon that were not accessible until you gained more Tool abilities. Metroid games also do this very well.
Basically the idea isn't to just put SWITCH PUZZLE in the middle of a dungeon that feels tacked on and offers no reward other than having you progress deeper into a dungeon. Give them some motivation by teasing them with that purple colored treasure chest across the room, or that Heart Piece to boost their health.
AznChipmunk
4613
Hm. I think battles are boring, so I tend to make adventure games. They have puzzles, but they are on a completely plane from the puzzles you guys are talking about. I think that if these were put into RPGs, I would be more interested in RPGs.
Like for example, instead of block pushing puzzles, there would be dogs guarding a mansion. The player would have to figure out how to pass them by finding meat, a way to drug them, and then they could feed them to the dogs which would fall asleep, allowing the player to pass. (Monkey Island 1)
Such puzzles require more creative and logical thought to figure out than just simply block pushing and switch-pulling, which just ends up tedious.
The best way to learn to create such puzzles is probably through playing adventure games!
Like for example, instead of block pushing puzzles, there would be dogs guarding a mansion. The player would have to figure out how to pass them by finding meat, a way to drug them, and then they could feed them to the dogs which would fall asleep, allowing the player to pass. (Monkey Island 1)
Such puzzles require more creative and logical thought to figure out than just simply block pushing and switch-pulling, which just ends up tedious.
The best way to learn to create such puzzles is probably through playing adventure games!
The thing is, most adventure games are lame and boring! And they can get really stupid and unintuitive (like using tape to trap cat hairs as the cat chases a mouse to make a fake moustache - why wouldn't you just go to the dollar store?)
