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COMMUNITY DISCUSSION: SO LET'S TAKE MORE PRIDE IN OURSELVES.
Posts
Feldschlacht IV
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CloseI got permission from Holbert to remake this topic.
You know, I want to talk about a sentiment that I've been feeling for a while. For the past few years now, there's always been comments and whispers here and there about the negatives of the community; how shitty a lot of games are, games go unfinished, and how stupid newcomers to the RM scene can be (and yes, this topic is primarily about the RM community). Entire communities have fallen into a schizm (like GW, yeah, I said it) between one side, and the other who is seen as a 'joke'.
Thw RM community is said by some to be unfun and shitty, but the problem isn't necessarily with those who say that, part of the problem can be placed on us, who really let that sentiment float around. We're pretty good at discussions on our own games, and the upkeep on them, but I really think that we could contribute more to the community itself, to keep it thriving, inviting more people in, keeping the fun games out in the open and held to the highest esteem, and keeping our reputation on the up and up.
I think a lot of gamemakers have sort of a selfish mentality to them. Max McGee nailed it on the head when he brought up that there's a 'play my game and I'll play yours' mentality. There's a lot of that around, and there's also things like screenshot circle jerking (I don't have anything against screenshot sharing and topics though), "I want everyone to play my game and fuck everyone elses" and just general self centeredness. I think everyone forgets that no one's game or project exists in a vacuum, it's the community that keeps the lifeblood going. This community is dependent on each one of us as individuals, so shouldn't we have more pride in ourselves?
I'm sorry if that doesn't make any sense, I was sort of typing stream of consciousness style and I have a massive headache. Please, discuss.
PS. I am not talking about a general flashing of individual egos. I'm talking about quite the opposite, a general camaraderie of keeping the spirit of the community and games alive.
You know, I want to talk about a sentiment that I've been feeling for a while. For the past few years now, there's always been comments and whispers here and there about the negatives of the community; how shitty a lot of games are, games go unfinished, and how stupid newcomers to the RM scene can be (and yes, this topic is primarily about the RM community). Entire communities have fallen into a schizm (like GW, yeah, I said it) between one side, and the other who is seen as a 'joke'.
Thw RM community is said by some to be unfun and shitty, but the problem isn't necessarily with those who say that, part of the problem can be placed on us, who really let that sentiment float around. We're pretty good at discussions on our own games, and the upkeep on them, but I really think that we could contribute more to the community itself, to keep it thriving, inviting more people in, keeping the fun games out in the open and held to the highest esteem, and keeping our reputation on the up and up.
I think a lot of gamemakers have sort of a selfish mentality to them. Max McGee nailed it on the head when he brought up that there's a 'play my game and I'll play yours' mentality. There's a lot of that around, and there's also things like screenshot circle jerking (I don't have anything against screenshot sharing and topics though), "I want everyone to play my game and fuck everyone elses" and just general self centeredness. I think everyone forgets that no one's game or project exists in a vacuum, it's the community that keeps the lifeblood going. This community is dependent on each one of us as individuals, so shouldn't we have more pride in ourselves?
I'm sorry if that doesn't make any sense, I was sort of typing stream of consciousness style and I have a massive headache. Please, discuss.
PS. I am not talking about a general flashing of individual egos. I'm talking about quite the opposite, a general camaraderie of keeping the spirit of the community and games alive.
I've actually played a lot of games out there; the good, the bad, and the average. I hold no prejudice to a game based on it's maker but the effort put into it. I know, everyone if not most people do that, but what I mean is I just will or won't play this game cause of so-so made it, or based on it's popularity. And yes, I know I should write reviews on the games I played, but when I mostly any games, commercial or amateur, I go through a faze where I just want to beat it or ignore everything else just to follow the storyline. So, I would have to play it through a second time, and when doing that I feel real discourage to play it again.
For example, I didn't know if Admiral Styles was gonna continue his Love & War game so when I beat Act 1, I threw the game away because I am used to people release something and disappear. Now that he has popped back after (2-3??) years (I don't visit a lot of RPG Maker Forums if ya haven't notice ^.^;; ...), I re-downloaded Act 1 because the choices made there affects Act 2. As much as I like the game, I kinda have to grit my teeth so to speak.
"Play my game and I'll play yours," doesn't exactly affect me because, well... I am part of the majority who claims to release a project but does the opposite so instead I hang around attempting to make something while playing other maker's game regardless that I have yet to actually release something... The small demo I made in Release Something V doesn't count! XD
For example, I didn't know if Admiral Styles was gonna continue his Love & War game so when I beat Act 1, I threw the game away because I am used to people release something and disappear. Now that he has popped back after (2-3??) years (I don't visit a lot of RPG Maker Forums if ya haven't notice ^.^;; ...), I re-downloaded Act 1 because the choices made there affects Act 2. As much as I like the game, I kinda have to grit my teeth so to speak.
"Play my game and I'll play yours," doesn't exactly affect me because, well... I am part of the majority who claims to release a project but does the opposite so instead I hang around attempting to make something while playing other maker's game regardless that I have yet to actually release something... The small demo I made in Release Something V doesn't count! XD
Anaryu
8848
You know, I've been thinking this for a long time, but why are both sides required?
Why is it if you want to post a game you're expected to play other ones? I enjoy MAKING my games; I actually like the ACT of making them, I don't pressure much for feedback because once I'm done with a complete project with it, I move on to the next one.
I rarely expect OR receive feedback because the community mind IS "I play yours, your play mine." I simply kind of ignore my projects once they're done because that's not what interests me.
I don't really enjoy playing a lot of other people's games, no offense to anyone, I just don't. Not because they're bad, but because I enjoy making stuff so much I don't play the great commercial games I have already sitting on my shelf! (Persona 4, Valkyria Chronicles, and Deadspace are sitting UNPLAYED for many weeks now, and this is standard when I'm working on a project.)
I have a limited amount of time per day, and I invest everything not given to my wife and kids and work into working on my projects.
Maybe we should be looking to find people who like to play indie games instead of make them, and trust more in them for the reviews and feedback.
It sounds kind of mean, but...
Why can't the makers make, the players play, and the talkers talk?
Why is it if you want to post a game you're expected to play other ones? I enjoy MAKING my games; I actually like the ACT of making them, I don't pressure much for feedback because once I'm done with a complete project with it, I move on to the next one.
I rarely expect OR receive feedback because the community mind IS "I play yours, your play mine." I simply kind of ignore my projects once they're done because that's not what interests me.
I don't really enjoy playing a lot of other people's games, no offense to anyone, I just don't. Not because they're bad, but because I enjoy making stuff so much I don't play the great commercial games I have already sitting on my shelf! (Persona 4, Valkyria Chronicles, and Deadspace are sitting UNPLAYED for many weeks now, and this is standard when I'm working on a project.)
I have a limited amount of time per day, and I invest everything not given to my wife and kids and work into working on my projects.
Maybe we should be looking to find people who like to play indie games instead of make them, and trust more in them for the reviews and feedback.
It sounds kind of mean, but...
Why can't the makers make, the players play, and the talkers talk?
Neophyte
155
I don't know what we're supposed to talk about here. Respect and pride? I can't understand the topic, but here I go.
The best thing to do now is to make better games that don't use the same rehashed resources over and over again and publicize them more. Prove to the others who say it is not fun by making a good game.
There should be no "play my game and I'll play yours". That makes no sense (and I notice most of you do it, why is this). You should be playing good games and not feel like it's a chore to play somebody else's. I do not play any game that does not look interesting to me. That's not because I am selfish or don't take into account the amount of effort it took to make the game, it's just the game doesn't interest me or it simply just doesn't look good in my eyes. I can generally tell when a game looks good so I know when to play something and when not to. Though I realize that if everybody was like me, most games here would go unnoticed.
I don't know what else to say about the contributing thing. Make better games that are fun and stop grabbing your resources from the same pool that every other RM user grabs from. Make your game stand out and be different. It gets publicity to the maker as well as this community. That's all you can do.
I also think Anaryu is right. The community is too small, and the people that are present, at the core, just make games. There is nothing wrong with this group of individuals, but most game making communities have somewhat of a balance between makers and players.
The best thing to do now is to make better games that don't use the same rehashed resources over and over again and publicize them more. Prove to the others who say it is not fun by making a good game.
There should be no "play my game and I'll play yours". That makes no sense (and I notice most of you do it, why is this). You should be playing good games and not feel like it's a chore to play somebody else's. I do not play any game that does not look interesting to me. That's not because I am selfish or don't take into account the amount of effort it took to make the game, it's just the game doesn't interest me or it simply just doesn't look good in my eyes. I can generally tell when a game looks good so I know when to play something and when not to. Though I realize that if everybody was like me, most games here would go unnoticed.
I don't know what else to say about the contributing thing. Make better games that are fun and stop grabbing your resources from the same pool that every other RM user grabs from. Make your game stand out and be different. It gets publicity to the maker as well as this community. That's all you can do.
I also think Anaryu is right. The community is too small, and the people that are present, at the core, just make games. There is nothing wrong with this group of individuals, but most game making communities have somewhat of a balance between makers and players.
drakiyth
50
I personally think that most reviewers need to fire straight from the hip of what they think about a project they are playing. However, people need to be a lot nicer with words and drop the know it all attitude in reviews. That's the worst thing ever and will stop somebody dead in their tracks to continue a game. There is a lot of ways to put it to somebody in a nice and professional way that their game is lacking and needs work. Also, comparing games to other ones is a really bad way to do things. When reviewing a game bring up bad things and good things to give the designer a smile every now and then. A review that makes somebody frown the entire time will lower somebodies spirits and more then likely they will just give up. People work in different ways in this world. Nobody is better at everything then the other person. Somebody might have the best grammar in the world and that same person might find it hard to map a game. Being nice is the key here.
In general, most of the reviewers are having trouble with their own projects and get questioned on their own project. Most reviewers will see a project how they think it should be which will raise a large amount of bias opinion. You need to drop the opinions and personal taste when reviewing a game or it's just like another person on YouTube or at Movies.com saying what they think the movie/game should of been instead of telling the designer things you personally think they should work on.
You have this guy over here who thinks your project is the worst thing ever, and then you have these guys over here who really love your work. The truth is. if you have a friend or somebody who really likes you review a game. They will always give you a good rating. If you have somebody who does not like you, they will always give you a bad rating.
Overall, I think it's very hard to stay focused for a lot of people because of a biased attitude in their reviews. If you're reading this right now think about it and drop your personal taste when reviewing a game and be nicer to the person who put a lot of work and effort to launch it. We are not getting paid here to release games. We are not professional game designers that went to college. We are amateur game makers and that mentality needs to be enforced.
In general, most of the reviewers are having trouble with their own projects and get questioned on their own project. Most reviewers will see a project how they think it should be which will raise a large amount of bias opinion. You need to drop the opinions and personal taste when reviewing a game or it's just like another person on YouTube or at Movies.com saying what they think the movie/game should of been instead of telling the designer things you personally think they should work on.
You have this guy over here who thinks your project is the worst thing ever, and then you have these guys over here who really love your work. The truth is. if you have a friend or somebody who really likes you review a game. They will always give you a good rating. If you have somebody who does not like you, they will always give you a bad rating.
Overall, I think it's very hard to stay focused for a lot of people because of a biased attitude in their reviews. If you're reading this right now think about it and drop your personal taste when reviewing a game and be nicer to the person who put a lot of work and effort to launch it. We are not getting paid here to release games. We are not professional game designers that went to college. We are amateur game makers and that mentality needs to be enforced.
VideoWizard
2842
Pride is a sin. You don't want it to rise up and Giga-Graviton everything, do you?
All kidding aside, I think we need to break out of the cookie-cutter feel of RPG Maker games- and I'm not saying that I'm not guilty of this- and find a way to stand out. We all must have SOMETHING that we can do in this field, right?
What'd I like to see is people that can customize resources for games for those that can't do certain things. And in order for that to happen, we must attract more people to the community. It's a bit of a Catch-22: Our games generally aren't appealing, so people don't come to the community, and so we stagnate: Such has been the case since 2003 or so.
I think a big, big, HUGE part of the problem is insisting on using RPG Maker 2000/2003 for new projects. I don't mean throw away projects you've spent months or years making in those programs, but expect that standing out will be that much harder!
Believe it or not, there are programs out there that can do things RPG Maker (even VX) can't. I saw a program on YouTube that can make 2000-era 3D graphics without programming, and the rest is no more than our switches (what IF-THEN is), and variables. The databases already exist.
All kidding aside, I think we need to break out of the cookie-cutter feel of RPG Maker games- and I'm not saying that I'm not guilty of this- and find a way to stand out. We all must have SOMETHING that we can do in this field, right?
What'd I like to see is people that can customize resources for games for those that can't do certain things. And in order for that to happen, we must attract more people to the community. It's a bit of a Catch-22: Our games generally aren't appealing, so people don't come to the community, and so we stagnate: Such has been the case since 2003 or so.
I think a big, big, HUGE part of the problem is insisting on using RPG Maker 2000/2003 for new projects. I don't mean throw away projects you've spent months or years making in those programs, but expect that standing out will be that much harder!
Believe it or not, there are programs out there that can do things RPG Maker (even VX) can't. I saw a program on YouTube that can make 2000-era 3D graphics without programming, and the rest is no more than our switches (what IF-THEN is), and variables. The databases already exist.
author=Neophyte link=topic=2884.msg55783#msg55783 date=1231839333
That makes no sense (and I notice most of you do it, why is this). You should be playing good games and not feel like it's a chore to play somebody else's. I do not play any game that does not look interesting to me.
Yeah, there should be no reason for that mentality unless it is two people with really bad games agreeing to endure the one another's garbage. Playing good games isn't a chore. If you have made one, make sure people know what it is about, why it is good, and why they should play it. Market your project properly and people will be coming to you. If people aren't playing your game, you're either marketing it poorly or it doesn't deserve to be played.
Ahh RMN, another "Come on guys our community is shit" solving topic.. I wonder how long this will last. I agree with Ciel & Neophyte on this subject though.
maladroithim
1495
I am willing to argue one of the major problems is that people play these games at their desks.
I play amateur and RPG maker games on my TV, with a gamepad, sitting on the couch. If the game requires that I use a mouse, that's different, but then it's okay because that means it is a PC game. Playing these console style games hunched over a computer screen and clumsily tapping on a keyboard . . . that isn't fun. If you can play them in the same environment as any other game, though, it becomes an entirely different story.
Also RPG Maker 2003.
Also you guys really need to think at least a little bit outside of the box and try to make fun games. Do you have any idea what it is like to play a vanilla RPG Maker game in the middle of a Release Something podcast prep when you have already played like 10 other games that day :(
I play amateur and RPG maker games on my TV, with a gamepad, sitting on the couch. If the game requires that I use a mouse, that's different, but then it's okay because that means it is a PC game. Playing these console style games hunched over a computer screen and clumsily tapping on a keyboard . . . that isn't fun. If you can play them in the same environment as any other game, though, it becomes an entirely different story.
Also RPG Maker 2003.
Also you guys really need to think at least a little bit outside of the box and try to make fun games. Do you have any idea what it is like to play a vanilla RPG Maker game in the middle of a Release Something podcast prep when you have already played like 10 other games that day :(
Yeaster
6164
I am willing to argue one of the major problems is that people play these games at their desks.
Yes. I would play these games longer if there was some way I could take them off my computer. But that's just wishful thinking on my part. 20-30 mins, or an hour if it's really good, at a time is good enough for me.
Anyway, when it comes to playing games, I download whatever appeals to me, and I just assumed everyone else did the same. I don't write reviews nor do I always post in the person's topic when I'm finished the game...which isn't helpful, but...whatevs. If I really like the game, I'll send the author a PM or an email saying that he/she did a great job and to keep it up.
I don't entirely agree that people just post their games and want feedback, but don't attempt to give the same treatment to other people. There are people who do what that of course, but there are plenty of people who would rather play games instead of making their own.
I have to agree with Anaryu. I am part of the community because I love the act of creating games. (You may have noticed that I've yet to actually finish any of them). I deeply appreciate any feedback given, and, like Ciel says, I market it incessantly. I don't usually play other games, and I have a shelf full of commercial games I've barely played: C&C3, Age of Empires 3, Civ 4, Dungeon Seige II, WoW, DQVIII, FFXII, DQ Swords, Force Unleashed, Burnout Paradise, Paper Mario, and Prince of Persia (off the top of my head).
So I am perhaps the worst member of this community.
However, I won't judge others for doing their thing. "You play mine, I'll play yours" is a perfectly valid arrangement. In fact, its just a narrow view of what you're trying to encourage, Feld: "You play and participate in the community, it will play your game"
So I am perhaps the worst member of this community.
However, I won't judge others for doing their thing. "You play mine, I'll play yours" is a perfectly valid arrangement. In fact, its just a narrow view of what you're trying to encourage, Feld: "You play and participate in the community, it will play your game"
Wow, a lot of replies while I was asleep. Let me take this time to answer and respond to some thoughts.
I admit I sort of just vomit my thoughts in a topic, but the topic is primarily about getting rid of the stigma that the RPG Maker community is ass and childish. Remember all the drama at GW because of a lot of the oldbies sentiments about the community? Part of that is taking ourselves a bit more seriously and being more community minded instead of just I MAEK MY GAME PLEEZ PLAY IT at all times.
I don't want anyone to feel pressured into playing other games. More on this below.
From the above. Keep in mind that this topic isn't about just 'I'll play your game if you play mines'. There are a lot of people who just don't have the time to play games, and EVERYONE should only play games that interest them and not to be forced otherwise. However I do think that a lot of people should drop the 'RM games are unredeemably unfun and shitty' attitude.
Man, I've been wanting to say this for a while, but who fucking cares? Yeah, I understand that you may see a fallacy in using an older maker over the other, but the fact is, all of them have something different to offer. I couldn't give two shits what maker someone used to make their game. I'm all about if that game is fun. If they're developing a game using a certain maker, I'll help make it fun, and if they make a game with a certain maker, I'll play it if it's fun. The end.
That's really something to think about!
The community ISN'T shit! That's the opposite of what I'm saying!
I don't know what we're supposed to talk about here. Respect and pride? I can't understand the topic, but here I go.
I admit I sort of just vomit my thoughts in a topic, but the topic is primarily about getting rid of the stigma that the RPG Maker community is ass and childish. Remember all the drama at GW because of a lot of the oldbies sentiments about the community? Part of that is taking ourselves a bit more seriously and being more community minded instead of just I MAEK MY GAME PLEEZ PLAY IT at all times.
Why is it if you want to post a game you're expected to play other ones? I enjoy MAKING my games; I actually like the ACT of making them, I don't pressure much for feedback because once I'm done with a complete project with it, I move on to the next one.
I don't want anyone to feel pressured into playing other games. More on this below.
You should be playing good games and not feel like it's a chore to play somebody else's. I do not play any game that does not look interesting to me. That's not because I am selfish or don't take into account the amount of effort it took to make the game, it's just the game doesn't interest me or it simply just doesn't look good in my eyes. I can generally tell when a game looks good so I know when to play something and when not to.
From the above. Keep in mind that this topic isn't about just 'I'll play your game if you play mines'. There are a lot of people who just don't have the time to play games, and EVERYONE should only play games that interest them and not to be forced otherwise. However I do think that a lot of people should drop the 'RM games are unredeemably unfun and shitty' attitude.
I think a big, big, HUGE part of the problem is insisting on using RPG Maker 2000/2003 for new projects.
Also RPG Maker 2003.
Man, I've been wanting to say this for a while, but who fucking cares? Yeah, I understand that you may see a fallacy in using an older maker over the other, but the fact is, all of them have something different to offer. I couldn't give two shits what maker someone used to make their game. I'm all about if that game is fun. If they're developing a game using a certain maker, I'll help make it fun, and if they make a game with a certain maker, I'll play it if it's fun. The end.
I am willing to argue one of the major problems is that people play these games at their desks.
That's really something to think about!
Ahh RMN, another "Come on guys our community is shit" solving topic.. I wonder how long this will last.
The community ISN'T shit! That's the opposite of what I'm saying!
author=Fallen-Griever link=topic=2884.msg55821#msg55821 date=1231861848Also RPG Maker 2003.
Send me $60 and I'll consider using the new makers, consider being the key word.
I am sure everyone will flock to the next maker that doesn't have some fatal flaw, or major step back from the previous version. I am not sure why Enterbrain is having such a hard time with so straightforward a task, but here's hoping for AGM.
Anaryu
8848
author=Fallen-Griever link=topic=2884.msg55821#msg55821 date=1231861848Also RPG Maker 2003.
Send me $60 and I'll consider using the new makers, consider being the key word.
I usually try to avoid talking about RM2K3 because so many people love it but you do need to keep one thing in mind:
Originality and interest are in the eye of the beholder.
Your 2K3 project could be the most amazing new idea, have the greatest story, perfectly balanced battles and everything, but when the random non-Golden-Era member is looking through screenshots those huge, pixely, alpha-channelless graphics and the general 2K3 feel, they're probably not going to jump into that game, especially not with how many permeate the scene.
It's a harsh reality and I'm NOT knocking any 2K3 game here, but people ARE that shallow and unfair, especially in this era of "instant-gratification."
Also, I've seen a lot more tendencies towards the RPGMaker communities starting to expand into a more indie game scene, look at the reception of many of hima's games!
And it's not just the graphics in the 2K3 stuff either, look at Spelunky!
2K3 will last a long time still, but it'll be the same stale group of people with not many new additions, I don't think (or see) newer members and newer players flocking to an antiquated editor.
Also Fallen, sorry to hear about your money troubles, it'd kinda suck not being able to play any next gen games or anything too. :(
Your 2K3 project could be the most amazing new idea, have the greatest story, perfectly balanced battles and everything, but when the random non-Golden-Era member is looking through screenshots those huge, pixely, alpha-channelless graphics and the general 2K3 feel, they're probably not going to jump into that game, especially not with how many permeate the scene.
Which is retarded.
2K3 will last a long time still, but it'll be the same stale group of people with not many new additions, I don't think (or see) newer members and newer players flocking to an antiquated editor.
I disagree. I disagree heartily! A lot of people I see are still getting into it, I myself because I like the graphic style. I myself would like to start using XP after I'm done with my current project, but I absolutely hate the look that VX has, and I don't see myself ever using it. Of course I'll play games made with it.
I am sure everyone will flock to the next maker that doesn't have some fatal flaw, or major step back from the previous version. I am not sure why Enterbrain is having such a hard time with so straightforward a task,
This too.
And this has nothing to do with the previous post or comments but why is everyone so cynical nowadays? It's really stupid!
Neok
3602
I don't have any essay length posts to write on this subject, so I'll just reference Neophyte's post because that's pretty much what I'm thinking too:
Cynical is the new emo!
author=Neophyte link=topic=2884.msg55783#msg55783 date=1231839333
There should be no "play my game and I'll play yours". That makes no sense (and I notice most of you do it, why is this). You should be playing good games and not feel like it's a chore to play somebody else's. I do not play any game that does not look interesting to me. That's not because I am selfish or don't take into account the amount of effort it took to make the game, it's just the game doesn't interest me or it simply just doesn't look good in my eyes. I can generally tell when a game looks good so I know when to play something and when not to. Though I realize that if everybody was like me, most games here would go unnoticed.
author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=2884.msg55831#msg55831 date=1231863704
And this has nothing to do with the previous post or comments but why is everyone so cynical nowadays? It's really stupid!
Cynical is the new emo!
maladroithim
1495
author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=2884.msg55814#msg55814 date=1231858631
who fucking cares?
Dude everyone cares. Making a game in RPG Maker 2003 is really really counter-productive. It is so limiting. It is such a pain in the ass to make a game with the program. It is a waste of time. I don't care how something is made if the end product is good. However, using RPG Maker 2003 really interferes with the ability for most members to make a good end product. Developers have absolutely no control over almost every aspect of the game engine. This really hamstrings creativity. When developers do get creative, 9 times out of 10 the result is really clunky and incredibly hard to play. I remember being exceptionally proud of all the things I did with Wilfred the Hero until I realized afterwards the battle system was hard-coded at 10 frames per second because RPG Maker 2003 gave me no alternative.
