NON-LINEAR RM* GAMES

author=Craze link=topic=3217.msg63513#msg63513 date=1235577226
Shadowtext: How could I (or Max, or anybody) make you enjoy a sandbox dungeon-delving RPG made in VX?

The reason I don't like sandbox games is because they feel more like toys than games, with no real goals (or if there are real goals, no real drive to complete them, no personal connection to getting them fulfilled), and so many options that leave me unable to make any decisions. Take care of those problems and I might enjoy the game.

But then again, those are practically defining aspects of the sandbox game, and exactly what fans like about them. Sandbox fans aren't as indecisive as me and are more than willing to come up with their own goals.

The other option is just to make the gameplay so addictive in other ways that I don't even care about any of that. I can't give you any pointers there, though, because if I knew of any easy ways to make addictive gameplay I'd be using it to make my own games.

author=Shadowtext link=topic=3217.msg63543#msg63543 date=1235587927

author=Craze link=topic=3217.msg63513#msg63513 date=1235577226
Shadowtext: How could I (or Max, or anybody) make you enjoy a sandbox dungeon-delving RPG made in VX?

The reason I don't like sandbox games is because they feel more like toys than games, with no real goals (or if there are real goals, no real drive to complete them, no personal connection to getting them fulfilled), and so many options that leave me unable to make any decisions. Take care of those problems and I might enjoy the game.

Then the problem isn't with the game, it's with you, or that just isn't the kind of game you enjoy.

The thing about games like that is you actually can make your own goals. You've probably been raised on very linear and clear-cut story-based games where you are spoon-fed goals and thoughts and behaviors.

Sandbox roleplaying games are true roleplaying games. They allow you to actually assume the role of a character you create and decide what goals HE (or you) wants as opposed to the goals the game's developers or the storyline want you to complete.

author=G-Flex link=topic=3217.msg63575#msg63575 date=1235601085
Then the problem isn't with the game, it's with you, or that just isn't the kind of game you enjoy.

Which is why I didn't say "Sandbox games are not good games," just that too much freedom too consistently turns me off a game. I did say they tend to be more toys than games (going by the old Will Wright assertion that Sim City isn't a game, it's a toy), and I stick by that, but that doesn't make them bad products for the audience that enjoys them.

When Craze asked me how to make a sandbox game that I would enjoy, I assumed he meant "How do you make a sandbox game to appeal to people who don't like sandbox games?" Sorta like how the DVD Monty Python and the Holy Grail included those subtitles for people who don't like Monty Python, I guess.

author=Craze link=topic=3217.msg63696#msg63696 date=1235675954
I guess I was, but I was also specifically targeting you. I greatly respect your game development opinions and would like to see if it would be possible for you to enjoy this sort of game.

Aw shucks. You're makin' me blush. As for the question--in the words of Fuura Kafuka, "The possibility exists."

I'm just not sure how. Especially how to do it such that you're not going to alienate people who usually are fans of the genre.

If there's going to be a tutorial segment of the game fine, but don't make it mandatory. I haven't enjoyed one of those yet, all I want is to get into the game and anything worth learning can be figured out or you won't learn in the tutorial area. The only 'tutorial' area I could stand was Morrowind because it was over in two minutes. I don't want a long (ex. anything more than two minutes) hand holding session with the game while it explains things that I already figured out.

Also if there's a place I can't go there better be a good reason for it. If I wanted to run into the underworld to Castle Doom then nothing should stop me (besides the lethal encounters in the ->underworld dungeons, the even deadlier guys in the underworld, finding a way to go around/over the lava surrounding Castle Doom and dealing with the Shadowlord guardians) like "This door is locked and you can't ever open it without the sliver key!". If there's a place I can't go then there better be a good practical reason for it (like above mentioned fuck off encounters or surrounding lakes of lava). For realizability's sake I don't mind 'You can't go here because that's not where the game takes place' like the barriers in Oblivion though.

I'm trying to get my next game to be non-linear, after getting the ship, you are free to explore the large world. In my game, you have to collect the seven orbs, and you can collect most of them in any order. The hard thing about making it non-linear, for me at least, is making sure that the continuity is not messed up. I don't want to have someone in a town say something like "So you went to the temple already," if they went straight to the town instead of the temple first. I will get it done, though.

One way of doing non-linear games while still maing them linear is a "mission" apporach. Essentially get the player from point A to point B to point C but allow lots and lots of freedom between the points.

There are some problems with the approach though. But first an example.

Your mission is to find a guy who is sitting in an office in a tall building.
Giving the player freedom to approach this in a multitude of ways. Let's assume that the guy doesn't want to meet you. Otherwise the obvious route would be to walk up there and take the elevator up and ask for an audience.
So let the player decide what he does. Perhaps he'll dress up as a window cleaner? Perhaps he'll force his way in. Bashing in doors and disregarding protesting secretaries "He's busy". Perhaps he'll put the building under surveillance and catch the Guy when he leave the office for lunch. Man you could phone in a bomb threat and lure the guy out.

Giving the player all these possibilities but the mission is still very clear. And the result will be the same.

Of course the problems are of course what if the player wants to kill the guy instead of talk to him? What will happen then? What if the player doesn't want to meet the guy because he feels it's unnecessary (In a tabletop example the GM will just put up his hands and say that the players are being difficult for no reason). With all this freedom in the mission the player will probably feel that he needs the same kind of freedom in the mission giving and will be a bit ticked that he can't do what he wants.

Of course that just means that he's an ass and doesn't enjoy what he has but instead wants MORE. Like everyone does I suppose...

As long as you stay consistent with that (all doors are unopenable doors). If some are openable and some aren't, you'll just frustrate the player.

A question: have there been any non-linear RPG Maker games?

The only one I can think of is Fallenwood.

There is at least one in development right now, it is called Everything Turns Gray. Also, I guess, technically, Aftermath by drakiyth. If that's your sort of thing.