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Feldschlacht IV
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Closepost=98699
I don't think a lot profanity of any kind really helps your writing, regardless of who the characters are. Just like a person who swears a lot in real life is not very articulate and creative, having a lot of profanity in your writing shows that the writer is not very articulate and creative.
For example, James Lee Burke writes really gritty books. They are really dark. All of his characters are addicts and prostitutes and hustlers and other examples of humanity's worst. But, there isn't much swearing in his novels - only a tiny amount. In real life, people of these classes are really vulgar. But, in writing, there are much more creative ways to show this aspect of a personality.
Grand Theft Auto. In GTA IV or GTA: SA, it simply would not have been believable if the characters didn't swear and speak as they did.
Dangnabbit, C.J.! Those gosh darned Los Santos Vagos are fouling up things for the Grove Street Familes again!
post=98752gadzooks, we must apprehend those hispanic ruffians and teach them a thing or two about territory laws !! to the mob-mobile, chaps !!
Dangnabbit, C.J.! Those gosh darned Los Santos Vagos are fouling up things for the Grove Street Familes again!
It appears as those detestable Vagos have violently perforated our dear mob mobile! Big Smoke, take this firearm and show those Vago hooligans what's what while I attend to the old bean, yes?
To be honest, I have something of a double-standard when it comes to swearing.
In my games, I avoid it at all costs. It simply doesn't fit the theme and setting of them (plus, most Pokemon games only involve needless cussing when they're joke projects). There are times when a swear might have been appropriate, but I usually end up defaulting to 'holy crap'.
But, the comics I write are a different story. I use swearing in them all the time (but not excessively or needlessly). I'm not sure why I don't feel the need to censor myself so much in them vs. in my games.
However, even in my comics, the only curse I never ever use is the f-bomb. It's too easy to drop and loses its impact pretty quickly. I feel it doesn't really add anything when it's used, so I simply do away with it. Then again, everything I make has this generally upbeat tone and a dry sense of humor pervading it, so serious swearing never fits anyway.
In my games, I avoid it at all costs. It simply doesn't fit the theme and setting of them (plus, most Pokemon games only involve needless cussing when they're joke projects). There are times when a swear might have been appropriate, but I usually end up defaulting to 'holy crap'.
But, the comics I write are a different story. I use swearing in them all the time (but not excessively or needlessly). I'm not sure why I don't feel the need to censor myself so much in them vs. in my games.
However, even in my comics, the only curse I never ever use is the f-bomb. It's too easy to drop and loses its impact pretty quickly. I feel it doesn't really add anything when it's used, so I simply do away with it. Then again, everything I make has this generally upbeat tone and a dry sense of humor pervading it, so serious swearing never fits anyway.
WolfCoder
3554
post=98622
...'that 16-bit sprite just said fuck!?!?'...
This made my day.
I've actually played a SNES game where one time in the entire game, the boss character said "f-fuck!" right before he died.
Cop Killa
94
post=98621
As many of you are well aware, I have played and reviewed a great many of your projects at this point and I notice a few recurring trends that bother me. The one that bothers me the most is the incredibly casual, almost thoughtless use of extremely vulgar profanity in many games. I realize that many of these projects are intended for a mature audience but it can sometimes be extremely off-putting to see these cute stylized sprites using such language in such casual, off-handed way. Sure, it works in some settings but in some cases it just completely clashes with it.
What motivates you to use such language in a game? To make it seem edgy or mature? To make it sound more natural? To make it sound cooler? How do you feel about such language being used in projects? Discuss.
This is pretty hilarious of a post for a couple of reasons.
Firstly, your entire post saves itself from stupidly presuming that swear words are somehow inherently bad when you say:
Sure, it works in some settings but in some cases it just completely clashes with it.
So then, the question isn't about swearing (that you call it "profanity" is again, hilarious, and shows how brainwashed you are) at all, but about people putting things in their games that don't belong.
It's fine for you to criticize out-of-place swearing in RPG's if it's a recurring problem. The issue is, when you feel an irrational discomfort towards cuss-words (which your post clearly shows), your idea of when swearing is appropriate is going to be very biased. Personally, I'm making a game that I want kids to be able to play - I think kids can handle swear words and all but the light atmosphere of the game I envision makes swearing seem really awkward. This is my call as an artist. But if my game were your average epically epic RPG, you'd have to expect at least SOME swearing in the dialogue if you want your game to have verisimilitude. That's just how some people talk. Are we to expect that every game be completely devoid of personalities whom you'd expect would swear?
I don't think a lot profanity of any kind really helps your writing, regardless of who the characters are. Just like a person who swears a lot in real life is not very articulate and creative, having a lot of profanity in your writing shows that the writer is not very articulate and creative.
I know that this is an empirical claim and that I'm going to be asked to prove it by all the muppets on this forum, but I'll say this anyway: I'm sure (to the point that I would bet money on it) that at least 90% of people who say statements like that are not very good at writing and probably don't know that much about literature. Have you ever heard of Harold Pinter? Do you think he should just minimize the "profanity" in his work? Are you aware that he won the Nobel prize for literature?
Assertions like "lots of profanity in writing shows lack of creativity" really bother me. Don't talk about things that you know very little of.
Don't talk about things that you know very little of.
This is just as presumptions.
Should we treat you as a higher order of being on the subject of effective use of profanity now?
Kef
0
pretty sure the issue here isn't 'these chipsets are saying sinful things' so much as 'hey let's throw 'fuck' in here with no context'
a lot of people would do well to learn how characterization and voice work, 'cause otherwise characters all sound just like the writer, and that is bad for immersion, and that is what makes a person a bad writer, and a bad person, and i don't think purgatory (or worse!!) is very appealing? don't be a sinner.
a lot of people would do well to learn how characterization and voice work, 'cause otherwise characters all sound just like the writer, and that is bad for immersion, and that is what makes a person a bad writer, and a bad person, and i don't think purgatory (or worse!!) is very appealing? don't be a sinner.
Shinan
4314
post=98699
I don't think a lot profanity of any kind really helps your writing, regardless of who the characters are. Just like a person who swears a lot in real life is not very articulate and creative, having a lot of profanity in your writing shows that the writer is not very articulate and creative.
You cannot say that the swearing in Deadwood isn't creative. I cannot see how swearing in text (prose) could have anything to do with a lack of articulation or creativity. To be honest I don't think I've ever read anything that had profanity and would have supported your claim. (Anything published that is.)
To me (although I guess I already posted in this topic) swearing often grounds a story into a sense of reality. Basically I don't expect swearing in a fairy tale or legend but I expect swearing in the actual events that later would become the fairy tale or legend.
meh_ch
145
Dunno if you've seen it, but there's one RPG clip on youtube where a character greets another one with something along the lines of "You undead cocksucking bitch". I can't express how much that put me off.
I am not saying that using harsh or profane language is automatically bad or that it's usage in a work automatically invalidates it. If you read my original post, you would see that my concern is it's rampant overuse or the fact that it is often thrown around ineffectively, in situations void of context. I barely consider "damn" or "hell" to be swear words but if someone in an RPG calls someone a "motherfucking cunt," I am going to find that more distracting than anything.
This is what I'm talking about. When you're reading dialogue you're supposed to be in the scene. Something like this takes you out of the scene. Something all writers should strive for is natural flow and anything that interrupts that flow is bad writing. And I don't think its a matter of people being too sensitive about the words, either.
There is a difference between casual conversation in real life and casual conversation in writing. People do all kinds of weird things in real life speech that you probably aren't going to carry over to writing. I object to the idea that profanity makes writing sound more natural. It can, but like almost anything else it's a matter of execution and that is my concern here.
I am glad you brought this up. I feel the need to point out that the dialogue in San Andreas is excellent and the profanity is used to awesome and often hilarious effect, and does not suffer from the lazy, indulgent usage I am complaining about.
This is also a matter of setting. It is believable for gang bangers on the streets of LA to use harsh language. Not all settings have this privilege. The harsh language in Sore Losers did not bother me because this was a gritty cyberpunk dystopia. It adds to the atmosphere, instead of detracting from it. I found the offensive language used in The Longing Ribbon, a game with otherwise fantastic atmosphere, to be distracting, out of place, and unnecessary, spoiling what was otherwise an amazing cinematic experience.
I think a blanket statement like this is pretty unfair. Profanity can be used creatively. I just find that it rarely is around here.
And for the record, I am familiar with Harold Pinter's work. The lecture he gave when he accepted the award was amazing. I am most assuredly not advocating his censorship.
post=98839
Dunno if you've seen it, but there's one RPG clip on youtube where a character greets another one with something along the lines of "You undead cocksucking bitch". I can't express how much that put me off.
This is what I'm talking about. When you're reading dialogue you're supposed to be in the scene. Something like this takes you out of the scene. Something all writers should strive for is natural flow and anything that interrupts that flow is bad writing. And I don't think its a matter of people being too sensitive about the words, either.
There is a difference between casual conversation in real life and casual conversation in writing. People do all kinds of weird things in real life speech that you probably aren't going to carry over to writing. I object to the idea that profanity makes writing sound more natural. It can, but like almost anything else it's a matter of execution and that is my concern here.
post=98744
Grand Theft Auto. In GTA IV or GTA: SA, it simply would not have been believable if the characters didn't swear and speak as they did.
I am glad you brought this up. I feel the need to point out that the dialogue in San Andreas is excellent and the profanity is used to awesome and often hilarious effect, and does not suffer from the lazy, indulgent usage I am complaining about.
This is also a matter of setting. It is believable for gang bangers on the streets of LA to use harsh language. Not all settings have this privilege. The harsh language in Sore Losers did not bother me because this was a gritty cyberpunk dystopia. It adds to the atmosphere, instead of detracting from it. I found the offensive language used in The Longing Ribbon, a game with otherwise fantastic atmosphere, to be distracting, out of place, and unnecessary, spoiling what was otherwise an amazing cinematic experience.
post=98699
I don't think a lot profanity of any kind really helps your writing, regardless of who the characters are. Just like a person who swears a lot in real life is not very articulate and creative, having a lot of profanity in your writing shows that the writer is not very articulate and creative.
I think a blanket statement like this is pretty unfair. Profanity can be used creatively. I just find that it rarely is around here.
And for the record, I am familiar with Harold Pinter's work. The lecture he gave when he accepted the award was amazing. I am most assuredly not advocating his censorship.
Cop Killa
94
I guess then all I can say to you is that maybe the games that "put you off" just aren't meant for you? I understand that standards exist in writing and so it's fair game if you want to criticize the overuse of certain words (why swears are held to some higher standard in this regard is a mystery to me), but I find it unlikely that someone just stuck "motherfucking cunt" in some dialogue for no reason. It's possible, I guess I'd have to see it in context, so this is kind of a wash.
My only real problem with what you're saying now I guess is that it seems you're singling out swear words when your criticism could equally be extended to the overuse of any word. Either way what you're saying is more or less reasonable so I'll just make fun of Karsuman now:
???
Are you saying that nobel prize winning writers don't know when to use certain language in writing? I gave you an example of a writer who won the nobel prize for literature who used profanity frequently in his writing. I'm not saying I know better how to use profanity than the average person, I'm saying he does. How can you even disagree with that?
My only real problem with what you're saying now I guess is that it seems you're singling out swear words when your criticism could equally be extended to the overuse of any word. Either way what you're saying is more or less reasonable so I'll just make fun of Karsuman now:
post=98783Don't talk about things that you know very little of.This is just as presumptions.
Should we treat you as a higher order of being on the subject of effective use of profanity now?
???
Are you saying that nobel prize winning writers don't know when to use certain language in writing? I gave you an example of a writer who won the nobel prize for literature who used profanity frequently in his writing. I'm not saying I know better how to use profanity than the average person, I'm saying he does. How can you even disagree with that?
Good job missing the point buddy.
I was talking about YOU, not the writer(this is why I omitted that part of the text maybe????). I've never read his stuff and I don't know if I ever will.
I don't care if people disagree with my point of view, I was simply calling you out on your condescending attitude.
p.s. - I don't agree with Brandon either.
I was talking about YOU, not the writer(this is why I omitted that part of the text maybe????). I've never read his stuff and I don't know if I ever will.
I don't care if people disagree with my point of view, I was simply calling you out on your condescending attitude.
p.s. - I don't agree with Brandon either.
Yoshio
774
I guess its best if we don't touch Kef's posts with a 9 foot pole
I'm fighting the urge to tear into him as this topic would probably get very, very ugly if I did (and he's probably just trollin' anyway)
I'm fighting the urge to tear into him as this topic would probably get very, very ugly if I did (and he's probably just trollin' anyway)
Cop Killa
94
post=98859
Good job missing the point buddy.
I was talking about YOU, not the writer(this is why I omitted that part of the text maybe????). I've never read his stuff and I don't know if I ever will.
I don't care if people disagree with my point of view, I was simply calling you out on your condescending attitude.
So, to be brief:
1-brandon says "writers who swear aren't creative"
2-I mention Harold Pinter, who won the nobel prize for literature (the highest honour for any writer), who swears in his work; therefore, brandon doesn't know what he's talking about.
3-I tell brandon that if he doesn't know what he's talking about, he shouldn't post, because most of what he says is likely to be uninformed.
What exactly is wrong with what I said? If it's true, shouldn't that absolve me for being "condescending"? Is anyone who proves anyone else wrong being condescending?
It's pretty amusing actually that you have no problem telling me I'm being condescending when the people in the "swearz are bad" camp seem to think they have some all-knowing crystal ball, which tells them that swearing in writing is automatically bad, without any real justification (literally, none). If anything I'm being the most permissive because I'm not saying people MUST USE SWEAR WORDS, I'm just saying that they're an acceptable means of an expression in literature, whereas brandon is the one pretentious enough to make a massive generalization about what's good for literature and what isn't.
