CULTURE OF CRASS, APATHY AND CYNICISM

That seems hypothetical. In my experience, well designed games don't get heavy feedback, just a lot of 5 star reviews or empty praise. Some bad/average games get the feedback they need, some don't. It's just not that specific.

edit: oh wait I misread something, disregard this.

it should be supportive but it should recognise what deserves support in the first place: this is why it's important to support imagination and creativity, which do not particularly require design experience or talent to implement. i think the values of the peer group (horrible term but whatever) count for a lot in this respect: if people come to a forum where the focus is on mapping, they will respond to that! also it will always be somewhat competitive from human nature and even basic feasibility (the writers on fanfiction.net could probably improve with criticism but really life is too short to write detailed critiques for sephiroth/goku pornography) but some things lead to a healthier competition than others. i have no problem with a community that competes for attention from players, as long as it does so in a healthier way basd on actual creative merit rather than the current lighting-effects-and-postcount method.

There's definitely a way to be honest, helpful, yet straight up to newbies to keep them encouraged.

Indubitably, I don't* believe in pulling punches when it comes to critique but honest negative feedback is usually blunt enough, and let's face it, a lot of well-meaning people have a hard enough time stomaching blunt but sincere critique without the one giving it being an asshole. Going out of your way to tack a bunch of unprovoked dickishness onto your feedback really just reads to me as "this game is flawed and I have a small penis"

I've only been around for a few months so I can't comment on the history/trends of this community but I will say that in spite of my newbie status, having no experience with RM and never ever planning to make a game in it, I was (at least I think) very warmly welcomed here and have made meaningful contacts. I don't even have a game profile for my project but just from pal-ing around on the boards and IRC there are a bunch of people with whom I exchange meaningful feedback and opinions of each others' projects. Basically I can get what I want from RMN just by engaging myself in the community even on the most superficial level and it has nothing to do with what the site can/can't do or even really how much spam and jackassery happens on the forums, but the fact that most people here are cool and know their games. It's kind of a "RMN is what you make of it" thing and I can only imagine that anyone who expects to sign up and passively/automatically experience everything the site has to offer through in-built features like reviews and gamepages and comments will be sorely disappointed and get jaded and snippy pretty darn quick.

Personally I heavily disagree with some of the things brought up in the OP. While I won't outline all of that here, I do want to point out a few things. I do not feel that GW was nearly as bad as everyone is saying it was, although there were plenty of times when a negative vibe got out of hand, for instance, the Iron Gaia 2 topic. For the most part, though, GW was a thriving community, up until some time that I can't really place. Honestly, yes, the main issue was that the site was getting stagnant and there was a general shift away from game design, specifically away from 2k/3. There were still members doing good stuff like TFT writing interesting reviews (yes, TFT), Strangeluv making both jokes games and his serious game, but there was a large shift from 2k/3 (and game design in general.) GW members tried to (and did) shift focus towards makers like Game Maker and whatnot. Interestingly enough, the whole "VX AND XP ARE BETTER THAN 2k/3" sort of "superiority" is very similar to that! Some might disagree, but as a member at GW during that time I feel this is very true. NOTE: I am not attacking VX and XP, although I do not like them. I am merely commenting that there was a whole air of "stop making games in your old bla bla bla 2k3 maker" that undermined the whole fact that for most people, this was merely a simple hobby and people didn't take it too seriously. The shift away from 2k3 annoyed a large number of the userbase and the site got less and less activity in terms of game design. The staff and more prominent members though, didn't care, because one major point is that while RMN is supposed to be a hive of game design, that was no longer what GW was supposed to be (I'm not sure if it ever was, since I wasn't around at its inception, but the whole time I was there, it wasn't very game design focused.) GW was meant to be more forum-based and a community, and the game design aspect was a small part of that.

Now, let's look at RMN.

I do not feel that RMN is going nearly down the same path at all... the biggest reason being? IRC. #G&D (GW's Game and Demo channel) literally NEVER had any game design discussion. I was there actively for a long time, and, not even exaggerating, 33% of the channel was me and Psyburn discussing movies/short films, another 33% was Psyburn spouting racist crap and me arguing with him. Then there was 33% of random stuff, and maybe a tiny 1% about game discussion. While personally, being part of that IRC channel was enjoyable, as it was entertaining, but it did not lend itself to game design at all. #rpgmaker.net however, is completely different. There is quite a lot of undocumented game design discussion full of good stuff that goes on in there! While there are still goof-off times, RMN has a focus on game design.

Back to the other point I brought up earlier, RMN however, is trying to attempt to create that sort of engine hierarchy that hurt GW. It is well established that VX and XP are capable of doing things that 2k/3 can't even dream about, but many members who have been around for a while agree with me that essentially, VXP games are for the most part, ugly as shit because the RTPs are horrid and so many people insist on using them. VXP games are not inherently ugly, and people will go "well, if you used it you could make a not ugly game" but 1. people won't necessarily want to work with an engine they aren't used to 2. some people don't want their game to be associated with an engine they feel makes "ugly games" and most importantly, 3. for most of us, this is a hobby and we are busy with "real lives" (why Chromatose is not done.) Also, I am trying to speak from a general point of view, as personally, none of the RPGMaker programs satisty what I would like and my little group plans to shift away, with plans to even remake games like Chromatose in other engines... however, once again bringing up what I just said. This is a hobby, and we have real lives (my little group consists of busy students, actors/musicians with commitments) so we don't have the time to instantly go "oh, yay, I can do _____" now.
^^^ Essentially, my point is that while promoting VXP can be good for progress, excluding older makes like 2k3 can hurt the health of the site. I've talked to several members (whom I don't want to name) who said they would leave if 2k3 is banned from the site. While I don't know if that would happen, a good amount of RMN's userbase uses 2k3.

Also, interestingly enough, while I've been around for, what, 7 years now? I never saw that sort of "golden period" where everyone made magical games or whatever the hell.

On the top of sameness that catamites brought up, I don't think the biggest contributing factor to the "sameness" that 2k3 games create is because of the maker, but rather, because so many people insist on making "epic 2k3 lololol." And honestly, this is the part of the discussion that disappoints me the most. When I read kentona's opening post and he kept specifically referring to "RPG creation and design" and whatnot. I have brought this up before, and I even tried to start an adventure game topic, although it didn't last too long. I feel that RMN does deserve a name change and that it would be really nice and healthy for the site if we grew out to other genres. I was quite happy to see Ghost Voyage up on the front page, but l felt disheartened when I saw it had less than 200 downloads. Too many people come to this site seeking to make FF6 clone 267 or whatever the hell it is. I feel excited when I see games with a mix of originality and functionality like Ghost Voyage: the graphics are unique and the writing is funny. I am not saying ALL GAMES HAVE TO BE UNIQUE TO BE GOOD, after all, quite a lot of games follow a formula, and it works. The only thing is though, no one here has really matched up to FF6 in trying to make a game like it, and basically, most people who make RPGs want to fit into the "RPG" mold so their game can be just like their favorite JRPG. I remember a while ago Lennon posted a blog saying "should I use Rudra chipsets or make my own graphics?" and people was like "use Rudra chapsets!!!!11" and I was a bit disappointed that members were in fact, putting down creativity and originality in favor of using ripped graphics. While his game looks great as Rudra, since he uses it skillfully, I simply can't understand why someone would say "no, don't make your own stuff even though you can." Of course the idea of doing things with originality rather than traveling down the beaten path conflicts with the idea of game design being a hobby around here, but I feel that this is essentially is a kind of quality vs. quantity (although I am not saying ripped graphics automatically means a bad game).

I am in big favor of an RMN name change to something more inviting to other people, so that we don't only attract new members who want to make their shitty Final Fantasy fangame or whatnot. I really really would like it if the site moved in the direction of welcoming more games of differing genres rather than the RPG. I always hate it when like, FINAL FANTASY FANGAME gets more views, downloads, and replies than something original. While I am not bashing on The Colony (although I doubt tardis would care if I did), it is essentially a collection of FF6 rips, and yet, it receives much more attention than something original like Chromatose. And then, there's Muse. While it is a horror game, it is much more a sci-fi game, but when I went to choose the genre, there was no listing for "Sci-Fi," there was only "Sci-Fi RPG," which Muse is not. It is an adventure/horror/sci-fi game, so I decided to stick with Horror. If the site opened up, we could attract developers of a wider variety, and hopefully attract different genres, like action, platformers, shooters, shmups, fighting games, adventure games, etc. etc.
Example: the game Desert Nightmare uses RM2000 and does not involve too much complicated event work or anything, but it is not an RPG, and the gameplay is vastly different because of this: it's a top-down adventure/horror. It is one of my favorite RM games (to the point where I translated it) and it is inspiration for my projects, such as Muse.

On the topic of criticism... Like uh, I don't believe in pulling punches when giving feedback. I give my criticism based on my honest opinion: "simply put, this sucks." However, while I while be blunt and maybe rip something apart, I do not believe in being harsh without basis. I will not simply rip something apart unless I feel that I am also giving them sound advice at the same time. I did bring this up in another topic to the point where the topic was locked. So yeah, basically, you can get a laugh out of something, but there's a point where it ends because you've already let the person know that x mechanic or whatever sucks, and they need to change/replace it. Of course, there are times when I will make fun of a game without giving feedback, but I try not to do this.

As a side note: RPG-Atelier is an amazing community and one thing that stands out is there is none of the RM drama that we have occasionally. I've always found it how the English community has so much more drama than foreign communities and never really understood why. (maybe because americans are dumb lolololol)

post=126735
What can we do for the community?
a) Play someone else's game
b) Leave a comment
c) Write a review
d) Organize an event
e) Write an article
f) Suggest ways to improve some function or aspect of the site

I agree with all of these by the way... but one thing that is tough is that, well, time. I play a lot of RM games, I have a TON of them, and if I especially like them I will praise the maker. Like, I enjoyed Dhux's Scar a lot and I told Erilex so by leaving a comment on his gameprofile and telling him over IRC. I've even written a few reviews. However, I wanted to review all the Game Chill games, but essentially, I didn't have time, because I preferred to spend my time working on my games instead... I think many people have the same predicament.

Also, I recently just did organize an event, and I have another event I want to lead afterwards too. I've been meaning to write some articles but I haven't had time. However, I do have something pretty cool planned for the community which I talked about with a few members! Hopefully the first one will show up next week or sometime soon. ;)

I just realized that I am not being very organized about my points in this post and I am kind of rambling and possibly making everyone tl;dr but whatever, too late now. Ironically I cut out a few paragraphs too.

I don't think anyone mentioned anything that suggested we should remove RM2k3 support from the site.

While I'm not at all opposed to expanding into other genres, I think a name change might be going too far. With RMXP.org recently becoming HBGames.org, RMN's now one of the few big sites centered around RPG Maker. It's part of what makes this place special. If we become another general indie game development community, then we're suddenly like a hundred other communities.

I'm not advocating that we should restrict our games to RPG Maker only, but I do think that we should hold onto the name or risk jeopardizing our identity.

post=126834
I don't think anyone mentioned anything that suggested we should remove RM2k3 support from the site.

WIP has not banned it, but he has said that the achievement system he is putting in place will not apply to RM2k/3. And I know there was some talk in one of the feedback topics about removing future RM2k3 from the site although I'm not sure if it was WIP who said that.

About a name change, I've heard possibilities and discussion about it on IRC from WIP but it is not my place to talk about it so I won't go any further on that.

post=126832
I think this is because The Colony has a 'mystique' about it, and it's presented very well. FF6 rips or not, I have literally never seen a game that quite looks like it. The whole underground cave motif? The way the graphics, while not original themselves, are used in original ways that seem to fascinate everyone that sees it. Not to mention the mysteriousness of it all and the fact that tardis is keeping a tight lid on exactly what its about helps draw people in as well.

It's a point I try to get across to people; it's a very well presented, and subtly advertised project! It damn near advertises itself. There's like, no information on it, and yet it draws people to it because it looks so good, and there's hope for how promising it could be. That's why The Colony gets so much attention, and personally, I'm dying to see what its about. I can't wait until more information gets released.

This makes me laugh me but once again this isn't my place to talk about it. However tardis has been just as secretive about Chromatose really but yet, FF6 rips attract more attention than our original graphics.
Although I do like how you bolded a grammatical error.

RMN's now one of the few big sites centered around RPG Maker. It's part of what makes this place special. If we become another general indie game development community, then we're suddenly like a hundred other communities.

I'm pretty sure this whole name change thing really has to do with WIP not motivated to support and build a site aimed at just RPGMaker. He doesn't even use RM, and it's his site. I don't think a name change will detract our centered RM status. I'm also pretty sure most RM peeps will stay and dominate the population. But face it, people are most likely turned away from submitting anything that's not even made in RPG Maker (though some do get the idea it's a place to post games in the RPG genre). I could care less if this place is listed as "just another indie community" as long as we still have the coolest users we have now. I wouldn't even want to label us as "indie" when really we're just a bunch of amateurs. An amateur community or "some dudes/dudettes who make gams" feels more like it.

Edit: Also I forgot to point out that before Gaming World went "indie" or "died" it was basically the center of the RM community and guess what it was called back then? Gaming World.

Do some of you really think places like GW and HBgames are "dying" just because they went "indie"? This is a serious question.

We're all making gams, let's be friends.

GW makes games? I'm sorry this isn't really an aimed insult, but I actually browse GW from time to time and most people who post their games there are just outsiders wanting to get a few extra downloads. You won't see the big top posters who spend most of their time in General or w/e bringing up game design topics or posting their game (if they even made one) for everyone to see (but correct me if I'm totally wrong). There really isn't a "war" going on between GW and RMN anymore, because there's nothing to fight about.

post=126829
Azn's Super-long Post

I enjoyed this, and Estrella's posts, but don't really know how to respond! So instead I'll say a few things:

My bookmark and Chrome speeddial button both link to the RMN mainsite, so I am forced to see random screenshots, new reviews, and the game of the time period. Sometimes I even check blog posts, but mostly just reply to them saing "THIS IS TOO SHORT WHY DO I CARE ABOUT YOUR TWO-SENTENCE BLOG POST." I'm not interested in stuff like Muse and Chromatose because 2k3 makes me :< and I just don't like the style of either. Thus, I don't pay attention to that sort of game. I guess I could follow MOG's blogs, but for some reason I don't. This... isn't even what I wanted to talk about, so I will leave this paragraph without fini

I am here at RMN because I am actively interested in making games seriously. Karsuman and I have a gameplan (pun intended) for several years worth of projects, and we work fairly steadily on developing them. Visions & Voices is one of the most-downloaded games on the site (even if I think 4,000 is quite low compared to what I'd like, we are really just starting to break the ice outside the community, so... yeah), which is (see previous parentheses) a bittersweet accomplishment and motivator. I'm a proponent of that which aids me as a serious developer, and I'm not a huge fan of stupidity (imo: 2k/3, sites like rpgmakervx.net). I don't visit or like THE OTHER SITES because they have very, very little to offer me. To be honest, even RMN has about 10% of the game design discussion I'd like/am interested in... but it's better than HOW MANY WEAPON TYPES SHOULD MY GAME HAVE? Note how I tried to sway the skill number topic to be about skillset types instead of HOW MANYsfnsadlkgnlsgknsaldgnasgnlsgn *Crazerage *Craze shoots to kill

To be even more honest, I find that IRC/the forums aren't that useful for me as a serious developer. I like posting because I like to call Orig a brontosaurus, but I find that the site is just my download host. This is why I spend my time chatting with WIP and Yanfly instead of on IRC. I've been accused many times of only popping in to advertise, and leave when nobody cares anymore - why wouldn't I? I'm not here to know that uh farted.

Before Soli/MOGyou call me out on not doing anything myself, I've written articles and reviews, started and expanded game design topics, tried to get people interested in LPs and other such things, participated in community projects, followed blogs and game developments, and - get this, guys - actually released multiple games. Holy shaizah.

SUMMARY: I care not for useless sites, and I don't really care enough about RMN's active forum base to not be crass.

Protip: I am 10x more active on Newgrounds, where I play games almost every day and leave a solid review every few days. The site is sexier and actually has a population. And the game's aren't just shorter/easier to play - sometimes Karsu and I spend a whole day playing one particular game. ALSO I AM NOT SAYING RMN ISN'T SEXY just that Newgrounds is even sexier.

Two things. 1) My views on the site were posted as a serious developer, and I actively discuss the future of the site with WIP so that he can make it focus on that. I think that right now, the site is fine as what it is... my post was entirely personal. I'm still here, though, aren't I? =D

2) Pretty sure WIP would only stop the addition of new 2k/3 games, not delete the existing ones. He's heavy-handed but not an idiot. Not that I would have a huge problem with them going bye-bye, but hey - I tend to stand alone in my ideas.

This discussion may be running too deep (wow, changing RMN's name? Banning rm2k3?), but before thinking about all the possible changes, someone ponder about what actually needs any changing. It's the old "why fix what isn't broken" thing. There are clearly lots of different gamer and gamemaker styles here, so it's impossible to completely please them all, but it is possible to have space for all of them, and that's already true in RMN, in my view.