WHAT DO PEOPLE CARE ABOUT?

bahleted

HOLY SHIT IS THIS A LOT TO RESPOND TO. I'll pick and choose:

As for right now, I'm with Nightblade on this one. There are games I am interested in, but have yet to be released. Looking forward to Phantom Legacy, Sacred Earth: Memory, Feld's game and of course, the Admiral's next game in the Love and War saga,

You know there is more to RPG maker than the games rooted in the ancient history of the RM Scene (I like Love and War as much as the next guy). For instance, have you played any of Anaryu's games? They are almost universally amazing.

Oh, get over yourself Craze. The first thing I need to address here is that there is no difference between "indie" and "amateur". Get this: They're the same fucking thing, a hobby rather than a job. I didn't want to bring it up but I feel that the only reason you even brought up the separation was to put yourself above other people, and say "Hey guys, I'm so much better caused I'm almost INDIE!"

There is definitely a distinction but it is so vague and subjective there might as well not be, It's not like there's a numerical milestone or something. A lot of it is the attitude. Let me link to an article about this: I didn't particularly agree with this article in some ways, but hey, it's food for thought even if it gives you indigestion: Article.

Geez, if RM can't create quality games, I don't know why you seem to brag about how good your RM games are...

Don't think that's what Craze was saying (of course I can't speak for him. Maybe he was saying that 2k3 can't create quality games (a statement I totally disagree with) but definitely not that RPG Maker as whole can't.

I believe it was my review of IG:V that said "this game could easily be commercial"

If only this was true. The best I can hope for though is that I'm getting better over time.

The point of me making a game is so that people will play that game.

I'm not saying it should be this way for everyone.

Maybe you can compare it to how "serious" artists abhor stick figures, etc.?

Is this a real thing? Do serious artists hate stick figures? Now all I can imagine is Van Gogh angrily shaking his fist at some child's drawing.

Incidentally, I wonder how THE BLACK CAPE is doing on his reviews.

o.O Who is THE BLACK CAPE? O.o

bahleted

There has been a lot of discussion back and forth and I've read all 6 pages of this. Rather than get my hands dirty, I'll refer back to the original post and the question "What do I care about?"

1.) My initial discovery of RMN was in the search for a community to help with RPGMaker. When I started work on Tiamat Sacrament, I had no idea this community existed. TS was designed as a gift to one person (and while I agree that one random person's appreciation isn't enough to validate a year's worth of work, the joy of one special person can be).

2.) As I found the help that I was looking for, I also discovered a thriving community that enriched the making experience. While RMN can be disappointing for makers looking for players and a high download count, it is the perfect community for makers looking to share their difficulties and triumphs with other makers.

3.) And only then, once I considered myself a member of the community, did I look to RMN as a resource for playing games and giving feedback. I presume we all got into amateur(/indie, don't trip) videogame making because we enjoyed playing games at one time, and I feel like I should play a community game every once in a while to participate in this thing.

And in these respects, RMN is what I need it to be. Some characters on the boards are pricklier than others, but everyone contributes one way or another. Like calunio said, I feel like part of a crowd that doesn't say much or hype very well because I'd rather be modest and deliberate with what I do say. But I'm still here regularly and I expect to be here for a good while.

Given all of the 'amateur/indie' breakdown, I'd like to point something out.

I can't speak properly on indie; I assume the word to be short for 'Independent', and therefore meaning something not affiliated with any of the current 'major' game design entities.

Amateur, however, I can speak for somewhat. It's best defined in terms of the related 'Professional' - aka 'Pro'. To most people, 'Professional' sounds better than 'Amateur'. To an extent, perhaps, this is the case - but only because the Pro commands an outside stimulus the Amateur does not. Normally, this stimulus is money - the Pro gets paid for what he's doing. Yes, he's probably better at it than most people, because those who are willing to spend money generally want a good return on their investment.

An Amateur is someone who does not command that outside stimulus, of whatever sort, but instead commands an internal stimulus - that is, someone who takes pride, joy, or pleasure (the three are related, but not the same thing) in what they do. I feel it is possible to be both Professional and Amateur (as witness the creation of the second game in the Megaman series), but I find it highly unlikely that most users of the RPGMaker series will be able to cross the threshold of Professional - and while, as I said, I cannot speak for that, I believe that it is at this threshold most 'indie' arguments occur - someone who might be able to command that outside stimulus, be it cash, public accolades, etc.

Being an amateur is not necessarily a bad thing. In some ways, the drive to complete a project can be stronger in an amateur than a professional - doing a task for the joy of it, or the pride in it, seems to be a better motivation than simply expecting some form of acclaim afterwards.

</Philosopy>

I will aways stand by the point that games are meant to be played.

post=129937

I didn't particularly agree with this article in some ways, but hey, it's food for thought even if it gives you indigestion: Article.

Not this article again. It is one of the more condescending pieces of shit I have ever read (and that includes my own reviews!) :@

Considering I didn't really like this article either I don't really know why I linked to it, lol.

Normally, this stimulus is money - the Pro gets paid for what he's doing. Yes, he's probably better at it than most people, because those who are willing to spend money generally want a good return on their investment.

COUNTERPOINT. Commercial appeal != quality. And many of the greatest artists and writers died penniless and unknown only to be recognized centuries or decades later. The reason? Most people are morons with no taste.

As a writer who has been paid to publish fiction in a pro-level magazine (even if the amount was literally nominal, not as in normal but as in in name only) no magical transformation occurs when you receive money to do something you love. No alchemy translates you into a higher being. No threshold is crossed. And nothing gets easier.

So, consider all of the above on the assumption that Professional > Amateur. Professionals get paid to do what they are a professional at. That is the only difference.

I care about amateur devs, btw, but I also care about crossing this magical mystery threshold into indie and beyond. Just to tie this back to the topic.

post=130074
...
I make games when I'm bored.

If I wanna be artistic I'll go play my guitar or write my novel.
The way this discussion has drifted is pretty laughable.

This is the most irrelevant post in this topic.

Also yes, I have to agree with Legion there.

i like fun games

Sometimes I like to play one of my own games, especially one I haven't played or worked on in years. Sure, it's a little embarrassing, at times, to see how far you've come and it's hard even after five years not to remember every plot twist and strategy protip. But those rare moments where something the past you has made surprises or entertains the future you, that is pretty precious.