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GAMES AND WHY YOU PLAY THEM
Posts
GreatRedSpirit
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CloseI like playing games where I can bullshit and discuss the game with others during the game. Bonus points if alcohol is involved. I played Visions and Voices, The Long Ribbon, and Dux's Scar for this very reason (with a different smaller reason on the side). I got to hang out with a buddy who is pretty new to RM games and just started one (and even restarted so I could see the whole thing), talk about the games with others who have just started or even a creator and discuss aspects of the game, and get a "You should play this" the instant I arrive. All have ended in good times and hilarity.
(yes I realize this reason is incredibly unhelpful at large since there's no real way to accommodate it and it needs somebody to take the first step)
New shit and interesting concepts that are all well integrated are other reasons. On this note, I just remembered that I can actually play The Reconstruction now! (fuck you rmxp and your non-executable memory)
(yes I realize this reason is incredibly unhelpful at large since there's no real way to accommodate it and it needs somebody to take the first step)
New shit and interesting concepts that are all well integrated are other reasons. On this note, I just remembered that I can actually play The Reconstruction now! (fuck you rmxp and your non-executable memory)
post=132978
well, mog, one of the benefits to holding stuff to some basic standards of competence is that i don't have to scream like a child about elitism and pretentiousness and poseurs lying to themselves about not liking the final fantasy series on every single occasion where someone brings up the idea of encouraging actual creative merit of any type. this is just an offtopic tangent feel free to draw whatever conclusions you like @___~
hey man its not like i meant to be an asshole or anything :(
i mean i understand where you're coming from, man
Keep in mind that I expect BASIC COMPETENCE from developers, professional or otherwise. I'm just saying I try to keep a mind for fun throughout the whole ride.
also
<Mog> honestly i commend his efforts but im really sick of these kind of topics
<Mog> RMN: SICK SAD WORLD. HOW DO WE FIX IT
<Mog> lets just talk about and play games, jesus
post=132992
Asretardedstrange as this may sound, I think the new gamepage system has something to do with this.
No, I don't want to go back to the days where people post detailed (and bad) character bios nobody ever read (I myself was guilty of this back in the day), but it just seems like less discussions on games take place with this new system for some inexplicable reason. Maybe there can be some compromise between the old way and the new way; because the new way is certainly not without it's merits.
I can't really comment on this since I didn't exist before these profiles were around, but honestly they seem really awesome and seem a hundredfold more desirable than random forum posts. I haven't seen many games posted on forums really getting much more chatter than these game profiles do. However, I know WIP isn't even close to happy with the profiles the way they are and plans to add a lot more to them, and one of the things he isn't happy with is the state of comments.
post=132994
<Mog> lets just talk about and play games, jesus
The general response to this is that people don't do these things, which is the problem.
Neophyte
155
I agree with mog, I don't see the problem here? Do I really have to discuss why I decide to play a game? Isn't that common sense? I mean, it's like asking why you're dating or are interested in somebody. Maybe it's because they have a good personality and look good?
Lots of bottled up emotions here, though. Maybe that is the purpose of this topic!
edit: I play lots of games. My RM folder is over 3gb soooo...
Lots of bottled up emotions here, though. Maybe that is the purpose of this topic!
edit: I play lots of games. My RM folder is over 3gb soooo...
(Im pretty sure "thankfully I didn't get to #3" is some kind of side mouthed insult),
No. I could never really form an opinion on it because I could not play past the intro. I told you that some time ago but you thought I was trolling then, too. No, I am not fucking with you. I did actually want to play it. But whatever.
In other words : drop it.
And it was going so well, too, what with that witty mockery of my spelling.
Yeah, anyway. I'll actually say something relevant now.
The problem with RM* games isn't always even a matter of quality. Commercial games are an investment to people - you buy a game, you want to finish it. RM* games are like any downloadable freeware. There's tons of freeware, but only a small minority of people actually use any of it. Even a smaler number of people use it for extended periods of time. That degree of investment is what seperates this and other amateur gamemaking communities from commercial indie ones. I am not arguing for commercialism, here, but there is a psychological burden placed on people that buy things - "It is a waste not to use it."
No dynamic like that exists in the RM* community. Here, it is viewed more like something of a craft, or art. And many artists are simply not interested in others' works. It's strange but in my experience generally true. Once in awhile, you get a huge exception, like a Cave Story. But it's not a success you can artifically recreate.
Hmm. As for a suggestion...
What I would really like to see is a very good series of LPs for (decent, at least) RM* games. There is a very interactive edge to LPs, and seeing a game in action is generally a better indicator of a game's quality than just seeing some foggy screenshots and a bunch of terrible character bios. It might even get people to download it. It would most likely be screenshot-based, but if you have a skilled a decent video editor you could probably make a plausibly entertaining video LP.
Y'know many more people are playing and liking these games than you'd think. I used to be one of those net users who bummed around all the RM sites, got the games, played 'em, and never said anything about it.
Since joining RMN I've been more keen on actively supporting the creators of these games. That's something RMN has that no other community really does. I mean, sure, we still all post our games on other forums to reach a wider audience, but we all come back here to actually talk about development. I like that.
Now to be more on topic, I'm a dick. I don't play demos, or betas, or anything other than a completed game because A) I hate the idea that I'll have to replay it when the full version is released and B) I don't like the idea of possibly running into game breaking bugs and not being able to finish. I don't expect commercial-like quality, but in some ways I do have certain expectations.
I like playing RM games because often they don't take 40-60 hours to beat, and they can still be engaging and fun. I'm more attracted to titles in a series, because it shows that the creator is dedicated to the world they've made and I won't be stuck waiting forever for full versions to be released.
Since joining RMN I've been more keen on actively supporting the creators of these games. That's something RMN has that no other community really does. I mean, sure, we still all post our games on other forums to reach a wider audience, but we all come back here to actually talk about development. I like that.
Now to be more on topic, I'm a dick. I don't play demos, or betas, or anything other than a completed game because A) I hate the idea that I'll have to replay it when the full version is released and B) I don't like the idea of possibly running into game breaking bugs and not being able to finish. I don't expect commercial-like quality, but in some ways I do have certain expectations.
I like playing RM games because often they don't take 40-60 hours to beat, and they can still be engaging and fun. I'm more attracted to titles in a series, because it shows that the creator is dedicated to the world they've made and I won't be stuck waiting forever for full versions to be released.
post=132960
I am asking a lot of people who proudly tout the stance "I think everyone ever should play my games, but I will never, ever play anyone else's for any reason." This is a poisonous attitude and I'd like to know what leads to it and if anything can be done about it.
I believe it all comes down to what you said, and there's nothing in this topic that responds it because you asked the wrong questions. I don't get puzzled by the question "why would someone want other people to play his game?", or "why won't someone play random people's amateur games?". The million dollar question is "why would they?". Why would people with a limited time budget (like every single person in the world), lots of other things to do and have fun with, download a game from RMN and play?
Why?
I see this question as similar to "why would someone purchase a CD when he can download music from the internet?". It's not a rethorical question, it's more a matter of incentive, of habits, of culture, and even ethics. You don't ask why, you make people want to buy the CD. You create an anti-piracy culture. In our case, I think what we should to is motivate people to respect other people's games, get interested in them, and eventually actually play them. How? I don't really know. But complaining that it doesn't happen is not the way.
post=132957post=132954And people call me an asshole.
Your game must fulfill at least one of the following preconditions for me to play it:
1) I like/respect you. (This cuts out about 95% of people in this community)
2) Your game is some combination of complete/lengthy/competent. (This cuts out about 99% of who is left over from #1)
3) Morbid curiosity.
Anyone who says they do not have time should be set on fire and dragged through the streets while chained to a chariot.
It's not like there can be only one.
Edit:
Actual reply after I've had some time to ponder the question/be less exhausted. My initial response to this topic was overwhelmed by the pot vs. kettle cage match that was going on.
Edit 2:
Short version, I am equally likely to play your game if something recommends it to me (i.e. if it looks good, or is well-presented, or I hear positive buzz about it, or even if it's just particularly up my alley) or if you play my game and give me helpful feedback. So I am definitely part of the reciprocation paradigm. Also sometimes I play games with no reviews and try to review them.
Karsuman's* idea of an LP sounds awesome to me. Even if its a simple slideshow of pics of the game, and the author talking about the characters and such, it brings the player much closer to the world and gives them an extra amount of knowledge before diving in. It can also be a better way then making a long boring thread.
Nightblade
2723
Looking at a lot of games here, it would help a lot if you took the time to make an RTP inclusive version.
Seriously, you want more people to play / comment on your game and yet you can't even be bothered to perform this simple task?
Seriously, you want more people to play / comment on your game and yet you can't even be bothered to perform this simple task?
S. F. LaValle
1069
Seeing as we can only speak for ourselves, those of us that visit and post on the forums, I'll post my thoughts on what's been mentioned in how RMN's game profiles vs. forum posts comes into play.
I agree that the game profiles are far more desirable than those overlong image-studded forum posts. What they lack is community buzz, and the means to achieve it the way forum posts used to provide. A lot of people complained for this very reason when forum posts were removed. Again, this was all buzz within our little community, and has no large-scale effect on downloads that game receives from random site visitors.
Most of us who chat with others outside of the forums, and most likely in real time like AIM or IRC, have been able to spread word about their projects verbally. IRC in particular, where a good deal of this site's forum community comes to play. Everyone in there has a pretty good idea who is working on what, and when a game is released by someone. Let's say for example that Craze didn't make forum posts complaining about lack of interest in Visions & Voices, the majority of us would have heard about the game being released at the very least, if not actually play it.
People used to make comments about games a lot more because back in the day of forum posts, that game effectively became a "topic of discussion." This is technically possible with the comments on a game profile page, but the games themselves lack the exposure. People don't know what games are being talked about without being able to find the game first. Following the Blogs page for people updating their game is an indirect way, but the current system doesn't really promote being able to tell when people are making comments ABOUT a game, except for the game's creator, and responding to other comments. This could be for better or for worse, but in the end it adds up to less discussion per-game.
That's still a superficial aspect of it all, though. Forum topics about games were still a sea of garbage, wherein each of us would still apply criteria to determine whether or not a game is worth our time. I myself admittedly don't play very many amateur games. I've always been more interested in the development aspect of games, and even then just as a hobby in spare time. I like the people, though, and the creative community at large. That aside, I can see what Karsu meant when he said that he'll most likely only play games by people he likes or respects (and let's get real, if you met Karsuman and weren't an obvious douchebag, you're in this category despite his hyperbolizing). What games I do choose to play of my own free will are usually reserved for those I've known the longest in IRC. But the other people that I know (and probably many that I don't), I'm sure I would give their games a try if they sincerely asked me to play it.
I agree that the game profiles are far more desirable than those overlong image-studded forum posts. What they lack is community buzz, and the means to achieve it the way forum posts used to provide. A lot of people complained for this very reason when forum posts were removed. Again, this was all buzz within our little community, and has no large-scale effect on downloads that game receives from random site visitors.
Most of us who chat with others outside of the forums, and most likely in real time like AIM or IRC, have been able to spread word about their projects verbally. IRC in particular, where a good deal of this site's forum community comes to play. Everyone in there has a pretty good idea who is working on what, and when a game is released by someone. Let's say for example that Craze didn't make forum posts complaining about lack of interest in Visions & Voices, the majority of us would have heard about the game being released at the very least, if not actually play it.
People used to make comments about games a lot more because back in the day of forum posts, that game effectively became a "topic of discussion." This is technically possible with the comments on a game profile page, but the games themselves lack the exposure. People don't know what games are being talked about without being able to find the game first. Following the Blogs page for people updating their game is an indirect way, but the current system doesn't really promote being able to tell when people are making comments ABOUT a game, except for the game's creator, and responding to other comments. This could be for better or for worse, but in the end it adds up to less discussion per-game.
That's still a superficial aspect of it all, though. Forum topics about games were still a sea of garbage, wherein each of us would still apply criteria to determine whether or not a game is worth our time. I myself admittedly don't play very many amateur games. I've always been more interested in the development aspect of games, and even then just as a hobby in spare time. I like the people, though, and the creative community at large. That aside, I can see what Karsu meant when he said that he'll most likely only play games by people he likes or respects (and let's get real, if you met Karsuman and weren't an obvious douchebag, you're in this category despite his hyperbolizing). What games I do choose to play of my own free will are usually reserved for those I've known the longest in IRC. But the other people that I know (and probably many that I don't), I'm sure I would give their games a try if they sincerely asked me to play it.
Kaempfer
1932
I haven't spoken about my game with anyone in literally years- I think the last person to hear about it was probably Neophyte back when I was still frequently AIM, and even that was probably pretty vague (let's not bring it up!), but I think that when I finally release something it will go over fairly well. While I really hope lots of people like my game, I'm more concerned that the people in the community that I feel like I sort of "know" enjoy it. The number of my fans doesn't matter to me, but the quality of my fans... that's another thing!
If the comments had full forum functionality (editing might be the only thing missing) or the game profiles themselves had more forum functionality within the profile, I think in-profile discussion would increase. The problem, of course, is that more time is spent prattling on about it then it is making/playing it, no? Discussion often isn't the best indicator of a game's popularity. Sometimes, games don't need to be discussed!
I think my biggest issue with the game profiles is that it isn't really conducive to creator-player conversation, which is an often overlooked but very important step in developing a game people want to play. I see a lot of games that are "HERE IS A GAME PLAY IT DON'T" and not enough that are "HERE IS A GAME PLAY IT OR TELL ME WHAT WILL MAKE YOU PLAY IT!". Lord knows I'm guilty of this myself, but mostly because I am not very good at RPGMaking so if I didn't do something right it's because I suck and am lazy and not because I didn't think of it. :D
If the comments had full forum functionality (editing might be the only thing missing) or the game profiles themselves had more forum functionality within the profile, I think in-profile discussion would increase. The problem, of course, is that more time is spent prattling on about it then it is making/playing it, no? Discussion often isn't the best indicator of a game's popularity. Sometimes, games don't need to be discussed!
I think my biggest issue with the game profiles is that it isn't really conducive to creator-player conversation, which is an often overlooked but very important step in developing a game people want to play. I see a lot of games that are "HERE IS A GAME PLAY IT DON'T" and not enough that are "HERE IS A GAME PLAY IT OR TELL ME WHAT WILL MAKE YOU PLAY IT!". Lord knows I'm guilty of this myself, but mostly because I am not very good at RPGMaking so if I didn't do something right it's because I suck and am lazy and not because I didn't think of it. :D
nickad
261
post=133021
Lord knows I'm guilty of this myself, but mostly because I am not very good at RPGMaking so if I didn't do something right it's because I suck and am lazy and not because I didn't think of it. :D
That is me :(.
You can edit comments. The only thing missing now between comments and the forum is previewing comments before posting (but at least you can fix errors now)
proper quotes would be handy
Nightblade
2723
While we're talking about this, how about we have comments viewed from newest to oldest, instead of oldest to newest? Seriously, simple little things like this don't help things either.
Neophyte
155
I have extremely vague memories of your game, Kaempfer. You never talked much about it other than asking about battle system help. :(
I agree with this, but the problem is a regular player doesn't know what they want. They expect you to come up with the world and neat/fun mechanics...and even then, they usually don't give clear cut instructions on how to improve that mechanic. Most bad feedback received is usually just "well, I wasn't having fun". I know I say that about games I don't enjoy. At the same time though, it's still legitimate feedback. You know you're doing something wrong, you just have to work harder to find out what it is.
I think my biggest issue with the game profiles is that it isn't really conducive to creator-player conversation, which is an often overlooked but very important step in developing a game people want to play. I see a lot of games that are "HERE IS A GAME PLAY IT DON'T" and not enough that are "HERE IS A GAME PLAY IT OR TELL ME WHAT WILL MAKE YOU PLAY IT!". Lord knows I'm guilty of this myself, but mostly because I am not very good at RPGMaking so if I didn't do something right it's because I suck and am lazy and not because I didn't think of it. :D
I agree with this, but the problem is a regular player doesn't know what they want. They expect you to come up with the world and neat/fun mechanics...and even then, they usually don't give clear cut instructions on how to improve that mechanic. Most bad feedback received is usually just "well, I wasn't having fun". I know I say that about games I don't enjoy. At the same time though, it's still legitimate feedback. You know you're doing something wrong, you just have to work harder to find out what it is.
post=133027
While we're talking about this, how about we have comments viewed from newest to oldest, instead of oldest to newest? Seriously, simple little things like this don't help things either.
We actually had it this way before! But people complained and we changed it to how it is now.
I am not sure if it is plausible (probably not I know nothing about the technology behind it) but it would be nice to toggle the organization of comments with a little option tab.
