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IS LESS MORE OR MORE LESS?
Posts
Hoddmimir
200
Hoddmimir
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CloseI've been reading up on a lot of forum topics and considering a lot of different games I've played while trying to decide what sort of game to make myself. One thing I've noticed a lot of is gimmicks or extras. What I mean is that games often seem to try and employ more and more customization systems, special abilities, added features, etc.. to make their game more appealing. What I am curious about is whether you all feel these things really make a game more appealing or if they just add a lot of clutter and muck up what would be good basic game?
Now I appreciate novelty very much, but I feel like these games with multiple classes, multiple resources to spend for abilities, talent systems, rune systems, weapon custimizations, 3 types of currency, factions to join, etc... can get to be a bit much. After all, can't many of these things be combined into the same basic systems we have seen for years?
Now I appreciate novelty very much, but I feel like these games with multiple classes, multiple resources to spend for abilities, talent systems, rune systems, weapon custimizations, 3 types of currency, factions to join, etc... can get to be a bit much. After all, can't many of these things be combined into the same basic systems we have seen for years?
xeilmach
82
Gimmicks and extras are really good if it's pulled off in a way that it blends in with the story and affect other parts of gameplay in someway, and not just some kind of system on its own that's there for the sake of it being there and that it's introduced in a tutorial, and no one makes connection of it with any other things again.
Think FF7 and how the Materia system relates to the story importantly. Now that was good. Then there was FF8 and Guardian Forces. The Guardian Forces seemed kind of really forced into it with that bit of the story attached just so that it would have a summoning system - oh and a junctioning system.
And something like thievery. I don't expect every single game to let you pick locks and steal, unless you have characters or jobs involved with the story that can let you.
Think FF7 and how the Materia system relates to the story importantly. Now that was good. Then there was FF8 and Guardian Forces. The Guardian Forces seemed kind of really forced into it with that bit of the story attached just so that it would have a summoning system - oh and a junctioning system.
And something like thievery. I don't expect every single game to let you pick locks and steal, unless you have characters or jobs involved with the story that can let you.
Hoddmimir
200
author=xeilmach
Think FF7 and how the Materia system relates to the story importantly. Now that was good. Then there was FF8 and Guardian Forces. The Guardian Forces seemed kind of really forced into it with that bit of the story attached just so that it would have a summoning system - oh and a junctioning system.
That's a really great example!
xeilmach
82
I prefer a really good written story (even if it's short) with minimal gameplay that's excellent and won't get repetitive than an epic game with poor character development and story and lots of features.
So less is more for me.
So less is more for me.
GFs were VERY cumbersome. I'm playing the game now. GFs made every character very generic in battle if a character could have the same stats and spells. Plus having to change them so often.
Hoddmimir
200
I don't even think GFs were the worst part of that game. I usually treated them as nothing more than an equipment and occasional summon attack if I really needed it, but I almost never changed who I had them equipped too. The gimmick that was most upsetting for me was Draw. A great idea I thought in theory but I think most people will agree that after spending all the extra turns it took to Draw out rare magics, it would have felt like a waste to use them in battle. Spells were equipped for stats and left alone. The mechanics of that game all felt like equipment to me. Slightly different equipment sure, but what was the real difference? I never used magic, I hardly ever used GFs except for their equipped abilities... A lot of cool features that were wasted by being poorly done.
xeilmach
82
^ Yup, I agree. So when looking for gimmicks and extras, remember to ask yourself "Is this really needed in my story?" - "Does it enhance gameplay all around in other parts?" - "Will it be too cumbersome to learn/make and have?"
Poorly executed gimmicks are double-edge swords that may make your game less realistic or more tedious.
Poorly executed gimmicks are double-edge swords that may make your game less realistic or more tedious.
Hoddmimir
200
I think both of those are valuable questions. I don't think they are questions for yourself though. I think that once a person has spent the time and effort to implement a unique mechanic or feature they are naturally going to want to keep it. The first round of playtesters are the ones that should be asked. They don't have any reservations about scrapping something based on the work load because they didn't have the workload. They are, therefore, much more objective than the designer.
However, asking those questions beforehand should help prevent us from wasting too much of our time.
However, asking those questions beforehand should help prevent us from wasting too much of our time.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
If your game's systems don't introduce any new ideas, your game doesn't need to be made. Plain and simple, it's not a new game; it's a game we've already played. If I want to play Final Fantasy 4 or Dragon Quest 2 or Don Miguel's Adventure again, I can do so without downloading your game that plays exactly like it. So for the part of your question that had to do with customization: yes, customization is one of the most important things that you are doing. You can't drop it, or you just don't have a game any more. All you have is a series of cut scenes on top of someone else's game.
However, a lot of the time, it's enough to just combine existing ideas in a new way. That's fine, that can easily be enough individuality to make me have to think.
Regarding sheer amount of complexity: When I'm playing a game, there's no such thing as too much complexity. Combining every single system from FFT and WoW into one game still would be pretty simple for me to grasp. But I know a lot of new gamers would disagree with me. They are still struggling with basic ideas like when is a good idea to use buffs, so giving them all that stuff at once just makes them unable to play the game.
But that's fine. Some games can be for people who know what they're doing, and other games can be for people who don't. Maybe you can make multiple difficulty settings in your game.
I've actually toyed with the idea of making multiple "complexity" settings in my game instead of just difficulty settings - so if, for example, I were designing a simplified mode for FF7, I would make it so each piece of materia in the game can only be equipped by one character, and every time you pick up a materia, that spell is automatically, instantly, and permanently given to that character. Materia shops would of course then only sell one of each, but maybe you'd pick up several of the basic Fire/Ice/Bolt/Cure materias for different people. AP would still exist, but would be hidden. And to balance out the fact that you have a lot less options, monsters would probably need to be a little bit weaker.
These questions about customization and complexity are, naturally, independant of whether any of your ideas are any good. If your ideas suck then it doesn't matter if those ideas are original or derivative, simple or complex. If it isn't balanced and isn't fun, nothing will save your game.
However, a lot of the time, it's enough to just combine existing ideas in a new way. That's fine, that can easily be enough individuality to make me have to think.
Regarding sheer amount of complexity: When I'm playing a game, there's no such thing as too much complexity. Combining every single system from FFT and WoW into one game still would be pretty simple for me to grasp. But I know a lot of new gamers would disagree with me. They are still struggling with basic ideas like when is a good idea to use buffs, so giving them all that stuff at once just makes them unable to play the game.
But that's fine. Some games can be for people who know what they're doing, and other games can be for people who don't. Maybe you can make multiple difficulty settings in your game.
I've actually toyed with the idea of making multiple "complexity" settings in my game instead of just difficulty settings - so if, for example, I were designing a simplified mode for FF7, I would make it so each piece of materia in the game can only be equipped by one character, and every time you pick up a materia, that spell is automatically, instantly, and permanently given to that character. Materia shops would of course then only sell one of each, but maybe you'd pick up several of the basic Fire/Ice/Bolt/Cure materias for different people. AP would still exist, but would be hidden. And to balance out the fact that you have a lot less options, monsters would probably need to be a little bit weaker.
These questions about customization and complexity are, naturally, independant of whether any of your ideas are any good. If your ideas suck then it doesn't matter if those ideas are original or derivative, simple or complex. If it isn't balanced and isn't fun, nothing will save your game.
Yoshio
774
i find the more sweet features i add to my game the less likely i am to actually finish it
the most important thing to remember is your own abilities what you can and can not easily accomplish
not to say you should shy away from all the cool stuff, just don't cram in too much or you'll overwhelm yourself, keep in mind that you have to actually implement this stuff!
the most important thing to remember is your own abilities what you can and can not easily accomplish
not to say you should shy away from all the cool stuff, just don't cram in too much or you'll overwhelm yourself, keep in mind that you have to actually implement this stuff!
I'm divided on this. I like seeing gimmicks being pulled off in RM. Especially in the earlier RMs where there wasn't script support (so I can nerd out over the clever implementation using PP's and eventing).
That said, a custom menu is not a gameplay feature unless it changes how you play the game (now that would be interesting to see) it's just inconsequential customization and says nothing of how good a game is
(Taking a game to be an object meant to provide entertainment and it's quality as a game being how entertaining an experience it provides).
A CMS is only entertaining from a developer's standpoint and only barely "entertaining" even from that standpoint. CMS junkies always leave me asking "That's cool and all, but what else you got?"
When it comes to pre-made scripts that improve the aesthetics of a game I tend to get "compensation!" alarm bells ringing in my head. The problem with those kind of implementations is.. If you're gonna be super-flash about your RM project; you need to deliver the goods in terms of actual entertainment. Unless you only have RMN in mind when you're making a game (and that's a little bit tragic :P).
Case-in-point.. The RM game I have enjoyed the most so far is Sore Losers. Loads of game-play "gimmicks" and minimal flashiness (no offense to F-G if he intended it to be flashy too, I don't get a flashy vibe from Sore Losers.. But I do get a "HEY these custom features actually enhance the game-play a shit tonne!" experience.. Which is what actually matters in the long run).
I had more shit to spout.. But I forget now.
That said, a custom menu is not a gameplay feature unless it changes how you play the game (now that would be interesting to see) it's just inconsequential customization and says nothing of how good a game is
(Taking a game to be an object meant to provide entertainment and it's quality as a game being how entertaining an experience it provides).
A CMS is only entertaining from a developer's standpoint and only barely "entertaining" even from that standpoint. CMS junkies always leave me asking "That's cool and all, but what else you got?"
When it comes to pre-made scripts that improve the aesthetics of a game I tend to get "compensation!" alarm bells ringing in my head. The problem with those kind of implementations is.. If you're gonna be super-flash about your RM project; you need to deliver the goods in terms of actual entertainment. Unless you only have RMN in mind when you're making a game (and that's a little bit tragic :P).
Case-in-point.. The RM game I have enjoyed the most so far is Sore Losers. Loads of game-play "gimmicks" and minimal flashiness (no offense to F-G if he intended it to be flashy too, I don't get a flashy vibe from Sore Losers.. But I do get a "HEY these custom features actually enhance the game-play a shit tonne!" experience.. Which is what actually matters in the long run).
I had more shit to spout.. But I forget now.
Hoddmimir
200
Novelty is very important. Ridiculously so if you ask me. I think a game needs to be unique whenever possible, but I also think it is important to not overdo it. Too many unique things end up cluttering the game. Features that don't play well make a game terrible too. The most important thing is to make the game fun regardless of simplicity or complexity. However, if you can make your game fun either way a certain level of complexity is preferrable I think to a simple boring game.
LockeZ likes games more complex it seems. Where do the rest of you stand on the topic? Where is the cut-off for too much complexity and do you have an example game that perfectly showcases your feelings on the topic?
LockeZ likes games more complex it seems. Where do the rest of you stand on the topic? Where is the cut-off for too much complexity and do you have an example game that perfectly showcases your feelings on the topic?
author=Craze
The real question is how many of you have played Knights in the Nightmare?
or Yggdra Union
Hoddmimir
200
author=Fallen-GrieverThe Guardian Forces seemed kind of really forced into it with that bit of the story attached just so that it would have a summoning system - oh and a junctioning system.Yeah! I mean, it's not like GFs erasing memories is a major factor in the massive twist that occurs towards the end of the game!
Oh... wait...
Even that still felt a little forced or more accurately like an afterthought. Even if you feel otherwise, then GFs still wouldn't have made too much sense until the major twist at the end.
author=LockeZ
If your game's systems don't introduce any new ideas, your game doesn't need to be made. Plain and simple, it's not a new game; it's a game we've already played. If I want to play Final Fantasy 4 or Dragon Quest 2 or Don Miguel's Adventure again, I can do so without downloading your game that plays exactly like it. So for the part of your question that had to do with customization: yes, customization is one of the most important things that you are doing. You can't drop it, or you just don't have a game any more. All you have is a series of cut scenes on top of someone else's game.
What is Earthbound, if not Dragon Warrior with a modern palette swap and sinus infections instead of poison?
Adding complexity for complexity's sake can kill a game. Paper Mario manages to maintain a reasonably fun battle system that is simple and easy to understand. Complexity can certainly add to a game, but it isn't necessary for every game and isn't always the right solution.
Complexity and gimmicks are not a synonym of originality.
Simple games are fun and addictive when done right. Complex games are outright boring and soulless when done wrong. Random flash RPGs with almost no statistics are fun if done right. (and fuel you to play more and more)
Examples of what I find to be fun simple games: Final Fantasy 4, Dragon Quest (d'oh).
Example of simplistic originality: Parasite Eve (in its customization and battle systems - very simple yet original and exciting.)
Example of too much complexity for its own good: Valkyrie Profile 2 and sending enherjars with equipment to get stones and skills with weapon / accessory combinations and enemy parts and CP and button mashing and guts and thathathathathathathathathathathathat. All in all it's very well done, but... It gets boring and soulless after a while.
I've written that comment about 4 hours ago but I had to rush somewhere else. I"m downloading pt.1 of "making comics" just to post a little something about page 47 on this page that has something to do with this. (and yes, I do own the book* - in portuguese, that is.)
*It's my friend's book lol >_<"
Simple games are fun and addictive when done right. Complex games are outright boring and soulless when done wrong. Random flash RPGs with almost no statistics are fun if done right. (and fuel you to play more and more)
Examples of what I find to be fun simple games: Final Fantasy 4, Dragon Quest (d'oh).
Example of simplistic originality: Parasite Eve (in its customization and battle systems - very simple yet original and exciting.)
Example of too much complexity for its own good: Valkyrie Profile 2 and sending enherjars with equipment to get stones and skills with weapon / accessory combinations and enemy parts and CP and button mashing and guts and thathathathathathathathathathathathat. All in all it's very well done, but... It gets boring and soulless after a while.
I've written that comment about 4 hours ago but I had to rush somewhere else. I"m downloading pt.1 of "making comics" just to post a little something about page 47 on this page that has something to do with this. (and yes, I do own the book* - in portuguese, that is.)
*It's my friend's book lol >_<"
