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WHAT'S UP WITH THE DAMN PROFANITY?
Posts
Shinan
4314
Shinan
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CloseSo this is something that comes up a lot. And yeah there's been topics about this in the past and this is just going to be another one of them.
In the Biggest Design Flaws there recently was a comment that swearing was awful. Whenever someone talks about Max McGee's games all they seem to focus on (well not all but it seems to be one of the big talking points) is a couple of fucks here and there.
It seems like a lot of people have problems with swearing. Even though people generally are giant fucks on IRC and on the forums it doesn't stop them from crying like cunts whenever someone dares say something profane in a game. "But these cute sprites shouldn't say that." "It just doesn't fit into a fantasy game."
My stance on this is. Fuck that. Seriously. Sure I can get the disconnect in seeing sprites (that were probably ripped from a game from the early 90s when game censorship was at a level where you couldn't get a profanity in even if you wanted to. Sort of like the Hays Code) say things they clearly didn't say in some canon somewhere. But really the only reason it sounds awkward is because it didn't happen in the 90s censorship.
So why is the game profanity a problem to so many?
And on the thing where "you can't swear in fantasy/medieval". Are you really that fucking stupid? Do you really think people swore less in ancient times? That they only spoke in "thous" and "thees" and "myladys" while slaughtering people left and right?
In the Biggest Design Flaws there recently was a comment that swearing was awful. Whenever someone talks about Max McGee's games all they seem to focus on (well not all but it seems to be one of the big talking points) is a couple of fucks here and there.
It seems like a lot of people have problems with swearing. Even though people generally are giant fucks on IRC and on the forums it doesn't stop them from crying like cunts whenever someone dares say something profane in a game. "But these cute sprites shouldn't say that." "It just doesn't fit into a fantasy game."
My stance on this is. Fuck that. Seriously. Sure I can get the disconnect in seeing sprites (that were probably ripped from a game from the early 90s when game censorship was at a level where you couldn't get a profanity in even if you wanted to. Sort of like the Hays Code) say things they clearly didn't say in some canon somewhere. But really the only reason it sounds awkward is because it didn't happen in the 90s censorship.
So why is the game profanity a problem to so many?
And on the thing where "you can't swear in fantasy/medieval". Are you really that fucking stupid? Do you really think people swore less in ancient times? That they only spoke in "thous" and "thees" and "myladys" while slaughtering people left and right?
Jericho
52
well the probably with swearing in medieval settings is that people usually do it in a sort of bad way. i understand that your game universe is not ours and the development of great kingdom does not parallel that of medieval britain. however, swear words as they are today still did not exist in the time period you are "sort of" portraying and thus it looks off. for the record, I like how The Way handled this the best.
but I does think this has to do with art. If the 'look' of a character's portrait or whatever does not match the energy level of their speech, the reader gets put off.
but I think the biggest issue of all is just overuse. in real life, not everyone swears a lot. in games like iron gaia, it made no sense for the characters to speak the way they did. Unless your game is set in some sort of mad max dystopia, well. then. yes. Furthermore, I am a egg.
but I does think this has to do with art. If the 'look' of a character's portrait or whatever does not match the energy level of their speech, the reader gets put off.
but I think the biggest issue of all is just overuse. in real life, not everyone swears a lot. in games like iron gaia, it made no sense for the characters to speak the way they did. Unless your game is set in some sort of mad max dystopia, well. then. yes. Furthermore, I am a egg.
Few things grate on me more than misused profanity, but anyone who thinks profanity is always awful and should never be used in games should play San Andreas.
I am drilled in the 90s RPG mentality, so yeah, it DOES seem really off and jarring to me to see chibi sprites swearing. I also agree with Jericho in that the swear words today as we know them today still did not exist in the magical time period you are "sort of" portraying and thus looks off. I don't particularly like swearing, and when I see it in games it does (often but not always) smack of laziness. I DO appreciate it when the writer goes to the effort of creating and tactifully introducing setting-appropriate swears, though! (Crom!) Furthermore, I am also an egg.
Darken
3952
I am drilled in the 90s RPG mentality, so yeah, it DOES seem really off and jarring to me to see chibi sprites swearing.
Yeah for me if I'm making a very SNES RPG looking game I tend to have the swearing on par with SNES RPGs (SON OF A SUBMARINER). I don't really care about other peoples games on their use of swear words, but if you have chibi sprites swearing in a very abrasive manner:
I might laugh, which could be unintentional on the creator's part if he's trying to make a death scene or something.
Generally speaking, people don't use swearing very well in RM games. I've yet to play even ONE game that has use "Fuck" in a way that didn't make me roll my eyes and automatically assume the author is in high school.
Example of an appropriate use of profanity:
Example of an appropriate use of profanity:
Yeah it goes back to good writing in a way, it's easier to pull off in 3d games that are more like movies. But even then it can seem like some lame PG13 flick. GTA IV is an example of gritty, yet realistic dialogue, whereas maybe something like Uncharted is the cornier example.
author=Emanzi
if its funny whats the problem? It's not like every rpg maker game has a PG limit.
If you bother to read any of the other comments above you, you will see that the issue is not the fact that swearing is used but that it is often used inappropriately or in a jarring manner.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Game creators are bad writers in general. Profanity is just one example of the more overarching problem that their characters do not always (or even often) speak "in character." If you have a character who is a street criminal, a drill instructor, or extremely angry, cursing is fine. But different characters should speak in different ways. Maybe the meathead warrior can speak simply and abruptly, the learned sage can talk too much and overexplain things, and the valley girl mage in a polka-dot hat can sound excited about everything and use exclamation marks after almost every sentence. In amateur fiction the characters typically all speak the way the author speaks in real life, which is jarring. It just so happens that the way a lot of teenagers and young adults speak in real life is that they curse too much in inappropriate situations, so that is what gets transferred to the silver screen, so to speak.
I do have to disagree with the argument about "those swear words didn't exist." Swear words exist in almost every language. They have existed for an extremely long time. What doesn't exist in your world is the English language - but even though the characters are presumably talking in Common or Elvish or something, you are going to write their dialogue in English. So when they curse, you are going to write an English curse word. Obviously they didn't say "shit", they said "pfoodoo" or something, but if you're translating the other 99.9% of the game to English, you've gotta translate the swear words too. So this is not really a valid argument against cursing, though it is perhaps a valid argument against the characters making puns. (But when a movie or something is being translated in real life and has a pun in it, a really good translator will try to find an equivalent pun in the new language. So you can still maybe justify puns that way.)
I do have to disagree with the argument about "those swear words didn't exist." Swear words exist in almost every language. They have existed for an extremely long time. What doesn't exist in your world is the English language - but even though the characters are presumably talking in Common or Elvish or something, you are going to write their dialogue in English. So when they curse, you are going to write an English curse word. Obviously they didn't say "shit", they said "pfoodoo" or something, but if you're translating the other 99.9% of the game to English, you've gotta translate the swear words too. So this is not really a valid argument against cursing, though it is perhaps a valid argument against the characters making puns. (But when a movie or something is being translated in real life and has a pun in it, a really good translator will try to find an equivalent pun in the new language. So you can still maybe justify puns that way.)
EnderX
562
Perhaps it's the disconnect between the topic and the words?
Think about it. The most common rpg plot is about the Chosen(TM), Destined(TM) Hero of Fate(TM), and his (or her) Epic Quest(TM) to save the world from the Forces of Evil(TM). Said plot is played up as a highly exalted (if not outright holy) quest, and the heroes as High and Holy people - whether the actual evidence of this is present in them or not.
Now, contrast that attitude against profanity (profane: Derived from a phrase literally meaning 'outside the temple') and vulgarity (low, coarse, and common).
My own take, derived from the above, is this: profanity and vulgarity seem wrong <i>in terms of the game plot</i>, because they're so much at odds with the implied status of the heroes we're supposed to be identifying with.
Or, of course, you could be someone like me, who simply dislikes the use of profanity or vulgarity in general. I personally don't like to see it, and probably won't play a game if I learn it has even a fair amount in it, but in itself that's my decision - the focus is on my own desires, rather than 'appropriateness'.
Think about it. The most common rpg plot is about the Chosen(TM), Destined(TM) Hero of Fate(TM), and his (or her) Epic Quest(TM) to save the world from the Forces of Evil(TM). Said plot is played up as a highly exalted (if not outright holy) quest, and the heroes as High and Holy people - whether the actual evidence of this is present in them or not.
Now, contrast that attitude against profanity (profane: Derived from a phrase literally meaning 'outside the temple') and vulgarity (low, coarse, and common).
My own take, derived from the above, is this: profanity and vulgarity seem wrong <i>in terms of the game plot</i>, because they're so much at odds with the implied status of the heroes we're supposed to be identifying with.
Or, of course, you could be someone like me, who simply dislikes the use of profanity or vulgarity in general. I personally don't like to see it, and probably won't play a game if I learn it has even a fair amount in it, but in itself that's my decision - the focus is on my own desires, rather than 'appropriateness'.
author=Nightblade
Looks like Legion finally made it big.
This is the funniest thing I've watched all month.
author=LockeZ
Game creators are bad writers in general. Profanity is just one example of the more overarching problem that their characters do not always (or even often) speak "in character." If you have a character who is a street criminal, a drill instructor, or extremely angry, cursing is fine. But different characters should speak in different ways. Maybe the meathead warrior can speak simply and abruptly, the learned sage can talk too much and overexplain things, and the valley girl mage in a polka-dot hat can sound excited about everything and use exclamation marks after almost every sentence. In amateur fiction the characters typically all speak the way the author speaks in real life, which is jarring. It just so happens that the way a lot of teenagers and young adults speak in real life is that they curse too much in inappropriate situations, so that is what gets transferred to the silver screen, so to speak.
I do have to disagree with the argument about "those swear words didn't exist." Swear words exist in almost every language. They have existed for an extremely long time. What doesn't exist in your world is the English language - but even though the characters are presumably talking in Common or Elvish or something, you are going to write their dialogue in English. So when they curse, you are going to write an English curse word. Obviously they didn't say "shit", they said "pfoodoo" or something, but if you're translating the other 99.9% of the game to English, you've gotta translate the swear words too. So this is not really a valid argument against cursing, though it is perhaps a valid argument against the characters making puns. (But when a movie or something is being translated in real life and has a pun in it, a really good translator will try to find an equivalent pun in the new language. So you can still maybe justify puns that way.)
100% this. Profanity itself is not completely objectionable, it is the fashion in which it's incorporated into the writing.
LockeZ, stop making posts I have no disagreement with
S. F. LaValle
1069
author=LockeZ
What doesn't exist in your world is the English language - but even though the characters are presumably talking in Common or Elvish or something, you are going to write their dialogue in English. So when they curse, you are going to write an English curse word. Obviously they didn't say "shit", they said "pfoodoo" or something, but if you're translating the other 99.9% of the game to English, you've gotta translate the swear words too.
I am apt to take this stance on the issue regarding swearing in medieval times. I think this also explains why I find "medievalized" dialogue in general very dry. I *hated* most of the dialogue in the Lord of the Rings movies for this reason (though maybe it was the delivery, because everything coming out of Ian McKellen's mouth was brilliant).
I am still jarred by swearing in most of our games, though. I can't say whether someone did it well or not (unless it's obviously not), it's just the mindset going in to playing these games. I know the game is made by an amateur (though Max McGee was quick to point out that he is published). That shouldn't matter, but it just does for some reason. There's a tendency to be more critical and discerning of the creations of our peers. Perhaps specifically:
author=narcodis
Generally speaking, people don't use swearing very well in RM games. I've yet to play even ONE game that has use "Fuck" in a way that didn't make me roll my eyes and automatically assume the author is in high school.
This. I think this is the sum of all fears for amateur game creators who want to tackle tough issues, or gritty environments. Games that do are automatically labeled "loledgy" or "pretentious." The creators aren't wrong, but the player can't help how they feel towards something, either. I don't really think there's anything that can be done, no matter how well you manage with it.
EDIT:
author=EnderX
Perhaps it's the disconnect between the topic and the words?
Think about it. The most common rpg plot is about the Chosen(TM), Destined(TM) Hero of Fate(TM), and his (or her) Epic Quest(TM) to save the world from the Forces of Evil(TM). Said plot is played up as a highly exalted (if not outright holy) quest, and the heroes as High and Holy people - whether the actual evidence of this is present in them or not.
Now, contrast that attitude against profanity (profane: Derived from a phrase literally meaning 'outside the temple') and vulgarity (low, coarse, and common).
My own take, derived from the above, is this: profanity and vulgarity seem wrong <i>in terms of the game plot</i>, because they're so much at odds with the implied status of the heroes we're supposed to be identifying with.
Or, of course, you could be someone like me, who simply dislikes the use of profanity or vulgarity in general. I personally don't like to see it, and probably won't play a game if I learn it has even a fair amount in it, but in itself that's my decision - the focus is on my own desires, rather than 'appropriateness'.
I am definitely of the latter group, I don't like profanity in many games (except games like Bulletstorm where it's hilarious and other games, voice acting helps), and I don't like profanity in music at ALL.
Regarding the first part, it's an interesting point, but I think that particular theme has been broken numerous times, particularly among RPG Makerers (sic). I.e., it's not much of a stretch for a game to have the "bad dude" as the hero, or for the party to not really be heroic at all and accomplish a heroic goal that just happens to align with their own.
Pasty
908
author=LockeZ
I do have to disagree with the argument about "those swear words didn't exist." Swear words exist in almost every language. They have existed for an extremely long time. What doesn't exist in your world is the English language - but even though the characters are presumably talking in Common or Elvish or something, you are going to write their dialogue in English. So when they curse, you are going to write an English curse word.
this is one of my arguments whenever this topic comes up. if you are writing a plot set on this planet at some period in time, then you have to adhere to the norms of that time to a certain extent in order to maintain believability (and profanity is one of the big things that will shatter that illusion), but when you are creating a world, nothing from this world exists. apple pies and such.
as someone who's making that world, you pick and choose what exists in your world and what gets excluded. how you pick and choose depends very much on your personal character, your experiences, and your writing style.
when we're talking about profanity, there are three choices: profanity taken from this planet, profanity made up for the world you're making, and no profanity at all. i tend to limit profanity unless it's a character who would use it and i want to demonstrate something about that character or when i need a strong word for a specific situation. my chief beef with made-up profanity is that it lacks the visceral impact that comes with an actual swear word. (if you think this impact is ebbing away, feel free to drop an f-bomb at your office job or in a classroom.)
i guess my point is that people swear! sometimes they swear a lot. just today i talked to an army nco and profanity was spilling out of his pockets because it wasn't coming out of his mouth fast enough. and this was official business that we were conducting. it's really up to you if you want to use it. it's just another tool in the bag.
