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THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT - PERCEPTION OF DESIGNER & PLAYER "RESPONSIBILITIES" IN AMATEUR & COMMERCIAL VIDEO GAMES
Posts
GreatRedSpirit
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CloseMax
GRS, sure, I can admit all of those are possible factors. Can you admit all of these are possible factors?
Heh I only recognize real criticisms. I have no issue ignoring that plebians can't comprehend my superior RPG design abilities and don't know how to play real games. They should go back and play their preschooler games like Modern Warfare.
(it is definitely hard to find the cause of problems in the game, including as somebody who knows the game inside and out. There's something to be said of simple solutions people overlook or don't even consider)
I myself have been caught in this before, when I was making a forest chipset. I had about 15 different opinions on what hue the trees should be. Was it nice and helpful to have people consider that? Yes. Would changing the hue to the perfect level be all that important in the long run? Probably not, most players wouldn't notice the difference between "Forest Green" and "Pine Green" while playing. They wouldn't see a problem with the trees unless they were a really offbeat color.
We are talking here about taking advice from people who LITERALLY AND FIGURATIVELY cannot see the forest for the trees.
Nope. Being right is more important than being popular, every time.
No, the relative importance of these two things depends on your objectives.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
If your objective is to be right, you are a good person. If your objective is to be popular, you are a bad person.
There is no situation where wanting to be popular is not the morally reprehensible choice.
There is no situation where wanting to be popular is not the morally reprehensible choice.
Queasy
0
author=Lennon
Listen, I KNOW feedback is important. I obviously realize that, I take every piece of feedback into serious consideration, if only for a few minutes. My point is that I agree with Dyhalto. Spending hours changing something the player will only see for about 5 seconds is totally pointless. The feedback itself is good, but people need to know where to draw the line for what matters and what doesn't.
But this screenshot was in the game's screenshot section, the section people typically put forth their best and prettiest screenshots to get attention, advertise, and show the game at its peak. Is the crystal, then, so unimportant it does not warrant criticism? Especially in a Final Fantasy game with otherwise excellent spritework?
I guess I just don't see how you can consider the criticism "pointless". Respriting a crystal is not the end of the world; it's not as if they have to recode a CMS or CBS or any other infrastructure changing system. It's just a crystal, and if changing it a bit means a better, more immersive RPG experience for the player, then what is the problem? It is up to the developer to prioritize the issue based on its urgency and manage it correctly. The criticism itself is fine.
Remember other people are entitled to their opinions and not everybody thinks the same way. As such, try to listen and respect the other person's views, even if you do not agree with them.
This goes for both players and game makers. (in a sense, a game is an implementation of the game maker's opinions)
Another factor contributing to this effect is that we are a smaller group of mostly game makers. Hence, we have a greater confidence and attach a greater self-worth to our opinions on game design which leads to a greater chance of us sharing that opinion with others. Coupled with the knowledge that our criticisms do have an impact, it becomes damn hard to resist posting criticisms, on an almost animalistic level!
Personal Anecdote: I am much more critical of commercial games these days after experiencing designing a game myself BUT mostly in my own head! I am more cognizant of the flaws or poor design choices. But I am also aware that the game is completed and that my opinion doesn't matter (the only real "voice" I have is my wallet and whether I shell out $60 on a new game).
Those restraints don't really apply here with free-and-still-in-development indie games.
So what is the problem and how big of a problem is it and does it require an overhaul of the site or just our attitudes (both as players giving advice and makers dealing with it)?
I can see in the overall site design that there were two competing visions for it and neither side clearly won out (boiled down to game hosting vs. game making). But it arrived more at a stalemate than a compromise. On one hand we have a system of game exposure and promotion that greatly favors game hosting and presentation, but it is coupled with a bajillion ways to give criticism and feedback. On the other hand game visibility is a huge problem (it is sporadic and limited) which works against effective game hosting but in some ways this benefits developers as their works aren't completely boxed out by awesome completed works.
I wish I knew exactly what to do. (but at least now I have a clearer vision to work with here)
This goes for both players and game makers. (in a sense, a game is an implementation of the game maker's opinions)
Another factor contributing to this effect is that we are a smaller group of mostly game makers. Hence, we have a greater confidence and attach a greater self-worth to our opinions on game design which leads to a greater chance of us sharing that opinion with others. Coupled with the knowledge that our criticisms do have an impact, it becomes damn hard to resist posting criticisms, on an almost animalistic level!
Personal Anecdote: I am much more critical of commercial games these days after experiencing designing a game myself BUT mostly in my own head! I am more cognizant of the flaws or poor design choices. But I am also aware that the game is completed and that my opinion doesn't matter (the only real "voice" I have is my wallet and whether I shell out $60 on a new game).
Those restraints don't really apply here with free-and-still-in-development indie games.
So what is the problem and how big of a problem is it and does it require an overhaul of the site or just our attitudes (both as players giving advice and makers dealing with it)?
I can see in the overall site design that there were two competing visions for it and neither side clearly won out (boiled down to game hosting vs. game making). But it arrived more at a stalemate than a compromise. On one hand we have a system of game exposure and promotion that greatly favors game hosting and presentation, but it is coupled with a bajillion ways to give criticism and feedback. On the other hand game visibility is a huge problem (it is sporadic and limited) which works against effective game hosting but in some ways this benefits developers as their works aren't completely boxed out by awesome completed works.
I wish I knew exactly what to do. (but at least now I have a clearer vision to work with here)
Darken
3952
author=welp
I guess I just don't see how you can consider the criticism "pointless". Respriting a crystal is not the end of the world; it's not as if they have to recode a CMS or CBS or any other infrastructure changing system. It's just a crystal, and if changing it a bit means a better, more immersive RPG experience for the player, then what is the problem? It is up to the developer to prioritize the issue based on its urgency and manage it correctly. The criticism itself is fine.
You've clearly never made custom graphics for an entire game before.
A thought that just occurred to me: if creators didn't overly rely on any sort of feedback from community members and just went about making their games the way they liked, others could end up caring a lot less than the creators would have originally thought. For example, I doubt Lysander86 posted in a screenshot thread every time he made a new area in A Blurred Line, but I don't think the graphical issues prevent it from being one of the best RM games ever made in many peoples' eyes.
Lennon
88
author=Queasy
It is up to the developer to prioritize the issue based on its urgency and manage it correctly. The criticism itself is fine.
I don't see how you're not getting me. This is literally exactly what I was saying.
Yes, the criticism is fine. It's great that people want the game to be better, thats not the problem. The problem is that spending too much time fixing something that's almost inconsequential only hurts the game, since you're losing time you could've spent working on something more important.
Changing the crystal or anything else that's wrong would improve the game, yes, but it's not important enough to warrant stopping everything else to change it. If you keeping doing stuff like that you're not going to get anywhere fast.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Hey Kentona! You should do both.
Queasy
0
author=Lennon
words
Ah, sorry, I thought you meant that people giving feedback should know where to "draw the line", not the developer.
author=Darken
You've clearly never made custom graphics for an entire game before.
You're right; I haven't. Care to expand?
author=LockeZ
If your objective is to be right, you are a good person. If your objective is to be popular, you are a bad person.
There is no situation where wanting to be popular is not the morally reprehensible choice.
I *really don't* mean to be condescending, but this *really does* sound almost exactly like myself at a much younger age.
Before we go any further with this train of thought, what exactly do you mean by "right"? If you can define that for me, I can explain what I was saying in some more detail.
So what is the problem and how big of a problem is it and does it require an overhaul of the site or just our attitudes (both as players giving advice and makers dealing with it)?
This is about our community and our culture, our attitudes, our behavior, and our psychology. There is no way to address this issue through the site's functionality or mechanics. (Those have...other issues. But that's not this thread.)
However, overhauling our attitudes is much, much harder than revamping the site.
Yes, the criticism is fine. It's great that people want the game to be better, thats not the problem. The problem is that spending too much time fixing something that's almost inconsequential only hurts the game, since you're losing time you could've spent working on something more important.
Changing the crystal or anything else that's wrong would improve the game, yes, but it's not important enough to warrant stopping everything else to change it. If you keeping doing stuff like that you're not going to get anywhere fast.
I would literally never have noticed the actual changes to the crystal whilst actually playing the game.
In many, many, many ways the focus on screenshots is really bad for the community. This is just one more piece of evidence for that.
I think you just have to have a firm set of convictions/opinions about your game and what you want to make. In that sense you are always "right" when it comes to other people's advice.
In the indie environemnt, (ie- where people believe (rightly so!) that their opinions matters and carries weight) you also have to be prepared to justify your convictions.
(I had to do this SO MANY times when the issue of RTP and Hero's Realm came up.)
EDIT:
Being able to express your point of view will boost your confidence and enhance your happiness, knowing you are being true to yourself. By keeping quiet you are not being honest with yourself or other people. This can leave you feeling demoralized.
So if you have a sticking point in your game, pipe up and give your rationalization! It will help your motivation and confidence!
In the indie environemnt, (ie- where people believe (rightly so!) that their opinions matters and carries weight) you also have to be prepared to justify your convictions.
(I had to do this SO MANY times when the issue of RTP and Hero's Realm came up.)
EDIT:
Being able to express your point of view will boost your confidence and enhance your happiness, knowing you are being true to yourself. By keeping quiet you are not being honest with yourself or other people. This can leave you feeling demoralized.
So if you have a sticking point in your game, pipe up and give your rationalization! It will help your motivation and confidence!
Darken
3952
author=Queasyauthor=Darken
You've clearly never made custom graphics for an entire game before.
You're right; I haven't. Care to expand?
yeah excuse me for the lack of elaboration but basically:
Respriting a crystal is not the end of the world; it's not as if they have to recode a CMS or CBS or any other infrastructure changing system.
It's not just a crystal sprite its the millions of other "unperfected" tiles/charsets/poses/animations/pixels etc. that ridiculously somehow need to be addressed. A game is a lot of work and like Lennon said you can't just perfect everything or you'll never get the game done, 10 minutes of respriting a crystal could have been used for something else. If you apply that to every sprite in a video game it eventually adds up to the supposed CBS/CMS example you're giving.
I think you just have to have a firm set of convictions/opinions about your game and what you want to make. In that sense you are always "right" when it comes to other people's advice.
In the indie environemnt, (ie- where people believe (rightly so!) that their opinions matters and carries weight) you also have to be prepared to justify your convictions.
Being able to express your point of view will boost your confidence and enhance your happiness, knowing you are being true to yourself. By keeping quiet you are not being honest with yourself or other people. This can leave you feeling demoralized.
So if you have a sticking point in your game, pipe up and give your rationalization! It will help your motivation and confidence!
The backlash for defending your design choices can be extreme, because something as simple as defending design choices can be grossly misunderstood depending on societal factors, leading to a massive, pointless, draining flame war.
"Defensiveness" is an extremely touchy issue in this community, and one of the easiest ways to provoke attack, even if you are merely "justifying your convictions". The only
Of course, the way you carry yourself and phrase your arguments is hugely important in how you will be received...so, unfortunately, is the way you have carried yourself in the past. This is not a forgiving society we comprise.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I mean that it is objectively more important in the grand scheme of things. That ultimately, any time you decide to do something where both options have merits, you have to decide what ideals you value more. Some people value happiness above everything else; some people value peace above everything else; some people value self-advancement above everything else; some people value selflessness above everything else.
I value truth and knowledge above everything else. I believe it is objectively a more important and valuable ideal than happiness, peace, selflessness, etc. If I have a choice between telling someone the absolute truth and diluting or sugar-coating it for some reason, I will make my statement with maximum clarity, because that other reason is less important than the pure spread of knowledge. But different people value different ideals more than others, which is why they disagree about things. Someone who actually values their own popularity above all else is pretty rare; more often, I think, they actually value their own happiness above all else, and derive (or try to derive) happiness from being popular. Either way it is ultimately a selfish motivation, which makes it morally reprehensible.
I value truth and knowledge above everything else. I believe it is objectively a more important and valuable ideal than happiness, peace, selflessness, etc. If I have a choice between telling someone the absolute truth and diluting or sugar-coating it for some reason, I will make my statement with maximum clarity, because that other reason is less important than the pure spread of knowledge. But different people value different ideals more than others, which is why they disagree about things. Someone who actually values their own popularity above all else is pretty rare; more often, I think, they actually value their own happiness above all else, and derive (or try to derive) happiness from being popular. Either way it is ultimately a selfish motivation, which makes it morally reprehensible.
@LockeZ: Do you mean MORALLY RIGHT or do you mean "factually correct"?
It is very rare that you can ever be "objectively right". If you mean "being true to yourself", perhaps that's more important TO YOU. But always remember that what YOU THINK is right will change over time.
If your objective is to run for political office, run a profitable business, or make a game that reaches lots of people, then for you to succeed it is more important to be popular than to be right. If what you think is "right" is not going to win votes, make money, or please players, then it is discardable. It's not like it's the objective TRUTH anyway, after all--it's just your own opinion. And assigning a moral imperative to your own opinion IS selfish...just as much as compromising your opinion in order to be more successful at your objective.
Just to be clear, we're not talking about actual wrongdoing or lying here, right?
To put it another way:
In my ten years in this community, I have done many, many things I regret. Some of them I regret doing because they were WRONG (blue suicide vs. WIP over signatures). Others, however, I still feel were RIGHT to do, but I regret doing them because they adversely effected my popularity.
As my goal is to ENTERTAIN AND BRING JOY TO AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE WITH MY GAMES (happiness, selflessness, popularity, call it what you will) then decisions which were *RIGHT* but which prevented me from reaching a larger audience with my art were, in fact, "wrong" i.e. ill suited to my objectives.
I think it's completely inappropriate to bring morality into this...unless we're having a fundamental misunderstanding. I agree with you that doings something MORALLY WRONG to attain popularity is morally reprehensible, but I don't think that's what you're talking about.
***
I think I'm going to go see a matinee with my girlfriend. So I'll be back in a few hours. It'd be cool if RMN could not firebomb this topic into oblivion while I'm out, I think there's some important things to discuss here. My last post, in particular, had some pretty important points.
To be continued.
It is very rare that you can ever be "objectively right". If you mean "being true to yourself", perhaps that's more important TO YOU. But always remember that what YOU THINK is right will change over time.
If your objective is to run for political office, run a profitable business, or make a game that reaches lots of people, then for you to succeed it is more important to be popular than to be right. If what you think is "right" is not going to win votes, make money, or please players, then it is discardable. It's not like it's the objective TRUTH anyway, after all--it's just your own opinion. And assigning a moral imperative to your own opinion IS selfish...just as much as compromising your opinion in order to be more successful at your objective.
Just to be clear, we're not talking about actual wrongdoing or lying here, right?
To put it another way:
In my ten years in this community, I have done many, many things I regret. Some of them I regret doing because they were WRONG (blue suicide vs. WIP over signatures). Others, however, I still feel were RIGHT to do, but I regret doing them because they adversely effected my popularity.
As my goal is to ENTERTAIN AND BRING JOY TO AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE WITH MY GAMES (happiness, selflessness, popularity, call it what you will) then decisions which were *RIGHT* but which prevented me from reaching a larger audience with my art were, in fact, "wrong" i.e. ill suited to my objectives.
I think it's completely inappropriate to bring morality into this...unless we're having a fundamental misunderstanding. I agree with you that doings something MORALLY WRONG to attain popularity is morally reprehensible, but I don't think that's what you're talking about.
***
I think I'm going to go see a matinee with my girlfriend. So I'll be back in a few hours. It'd be cool if RMN could not firebomb this topic into oblivion while I'm out, I think there's some important things to discuss here. My last post, in particular, had some pretty important points.
To be continued.
author=Darkenauthor=welpYou've clearly never made custom graphics for an entire game before.
I guess I just don't see how you can consider the criticism "pointless". Respriting a crystal is not the end of the world; it's not as if they have to recode a CMS or CBS or any other infrastructure changing system. It's just a crystal, and if changing it a bit means a better, more immersive RPG experience for the player, then what is the problem? It is up to the developer to prioritize the issue based on its urgency and manage it correctly. The criticism itself is fine.
I actually agree with quesy there's nothing wrong with a critic over a graphic that just seems ODD, specially if you're going for immersion or whatever. It's always up to you whether you want to change it or not. Like my case with tardis with perspective for anagram tiles. All I did was say I have a deadline and I want to finish it first. Case closed.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=Max McGee
Of course, the way you carry yourself and phrase your arguments is hugely important in how you will be received...so, unfortunately, is the way you have carried yourself in the past. This is not a forgiving society we comprise.
See, the solution is to not care about how you're received. Funny how that works out. It's almost like these problems solve themselves!
