THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT - PERCEPTION OF DESIGNER & PLAYER "RESPONSIBILITIES" IN AMATEUR & COMMERCIAL VIDEO GAMES

Posts

let us talk about the increase of fedora related avatars...
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Can't ever have too many fedoras.
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
halibabica
RMN's Official Reviewmonger
16948
My avatar features approximately zero fedoras, but the inclusion of even one would surely increase its value a great deal.

In the interest of not making a shit post, I'll go ahead and say that much of this problem seems to be merely in the attitudes of those involved. Players need to be more forgiving of the games that trash them for playing badly; creators need to be more receptive to criticism; critics need to have more tact and try to give advice that actually helps. None of this stuff changes overnight. It's a case by case thing; everyone needs to work on it (some more than others).
Players need to be more forgiving of the games that trash them for playing badly


Not if the game isn't fun we don't. A game can be hard but it must be for all the right reasons.
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
Players around these parts, the vocal type, do need to be more 'forgiving' and more 'tactful'. That is my point. You have to at least acknowledge the possibility that you may be playing a game wrong.

As for 'creators being more receptive', I'm not as sure. The truth is, with what I've observed of community culture, it already STRONGLY encourages receptiveness/punishes the opposite from game developers.

There are some lengthy wall of text posts I made over the previous 8 pages that didn't get any real discussion. They had deeper observations than I'm making here. I wonder if I should copy paste them.
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18257
*joins the cool hat club*

An important point. Feedback is just that, feedback. They are the player's/reviewer's opinions and you are certainly not obligated to do everything they say. No one reasonable espouses this viewpoint. When you start getting multiple people all suggesting the same things, at that point it is probably in your best interest to take what they say into account, but ultimately it is the developer's call and they must live or die by the consequences.
Locke, if you can't see the issue in being a walking critic everywhere you go whether people ask for it or not I mean you have to be pretty severely impaired when it comes to interactions with other people.

author=LockeZ
I would not make it very long in the military.


From the attitude conveyed in your posts so far, let me tell you, no, you wouldn't.
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
THE PLAYER IS SOMETIMES WRONG.

Agree or disagree?
Agree. Sometimes another player says the opposite of what I say. Most common example being the other player saying the game is balanced and I saying it's not.
author=Max McGee
THE PLAYER IS SOMETIMES WRONG.

There's nothing one can possibly throw against that statement. Other varieties would be "the player is always right/wrong" or "the designer is always right/wrong", which is both really stupid.

But what matter is why the player does not "get it" as intended. Whenever one does a little riddle in the game, there will be people too "stupid" for it, so how hard/cryptic can it be before it is undesirable? In the rpg maker community most people play a lot of rpg-games so the obvious things should be clear for most reviewers. Sometimes i wonder how much i should explain if i wanted any person able to use a keyboard to also be able to play my rm2k3 game.

Too "stupid" may be the wrong word, it can also be a matter of age/experience/education if some "gets it" or not.
No matter what one does as a decision of design, some people may find it trivial(and are bored) and some find it too hard/can't do it, so there definitly will be cases when "sorry player, i won't change that, you just have to improve" is definitly valid.

author=Max McGee
THE PLAYER IS SOMETIMES WRONG.Agree or disagree?

I don't think it's a matter of who is right or who is wrong, actually! I think a more accurate statement here would be:
"Both the player and creator have an opinion."
I hate grinding in games, so if I play a game that has a steep difficulty curve that forces the player to grind for a bit, I would disagree with that design choice. I'd tell the creator: "Your game is too slow. I wanna get to the story and the next dungeon but I'm stuck killing slimes on the first map so I don't die on the second."
Am I wrong for disliking grinding? No. Is the creator wrong for liking grinding and making it a part of her game? Nope, she isn't wrong either.

I think a subject like this goes beyond "right" and "wrong" and pushes us more into a "how much is a creator willing to compromise from his original vision to please the crowd?" territory. Because, I mean... if no one wants to play your game, why bother? If a few little changes will open it up to more people, I think it is worth it to make those changes.

I also think that people need to stop and think about their biases when offering feedback. It's probably already been said (likely in the first post, even, and I'm forgetting), but I believe that it is important for people to differentiate between things that are inherently bad design choices and simply something they don't like. Back to the grinding example: I don't like it. So if I go up to the gal that had grinding as a big part of her game because she likes it and say "this was a bad choice and you are wrong," there is something flawed with my statement. However, I do think it is perfectly reasonable for me to go up to the same girl and say "I thought it was a bad choice because, in my opinion, it threw off the pacing of the story." See, now the girl will take that feedback and think, "oh, hey, not everyone loves grinding. Maybe there is a more creative idea I can use so grinding can happen but people don't feel the pacing is bad."
Alternatively, she might also say "fuck no, I love me some grinding," and toss out my opinion, which is also perfectly reasonable.
Remember that there are two sides to an RMNer and I'm going to talk about both of them. The first is the player. The second is the designer.

PLAYER

Usually I play a game because I like the look of it, I've heard that it was fun or there's some sort of controversy over it (I admit it!). I try to experience as much of the game as I possibly can - I'm one of those people who like to try out everything and will spend time running through a maze for that last treasure chest. That said, there are certain things that will turn me off a game, such as overly large (and bland) dungeons, slow walk speed, slow dialogue speed and too many random encounters. This doesn't mean I won't enjoy the game. As long as I'm kept from thinking about these things I usually will.

That said, I've played a variety of games, both good and bad, and I'm pretty forgiving to even the worst ones I've played (barring one or two... -_-; )
I think this is because of the number of games I've played. I've played games where all the dialogue was text-talk (oi, brian, lts go2 lake tmz!) and games where the script is amazingly polished and/or overly complicated (Phylomortis, anyone?). I've played games where floors are used as walls, doors are houses and a forest contained three trees. On the flip, I've played a few german games, a couple of french ones and others like Eyes Without a Face. I've played games where the plot is to collect four crystals, and enjoyed them. Played ones where the story is focussed on time travel and paradoxes. Games that used the RTP sounds and music, games with original sountracks, games that were buggy, but enjoyable, games that were solid but boring, games with incredible systems that were too complex or weren't fun, games with only the default systems that were a lot of fun and always will be.

I think what's missing in a lot of peoples' critiques is well-rounded experiences. I know it's not going to happen but I do wish that people who were intent on giving critiques would go out and play more games, both good and bad (and remembered the honey/stick approach when giving critique, dammit!)

Most of the time when I LT a game I try to be fair. The times I am not fair are when there's things blatantly wrong with the game - whether that be the script, bugs that kill the gaming experience or a lack of fun. Even then, I will try to point out the good things I see, the things that are interesting or that I liked, because those things I want them to keep doing, want to see more of in their next game. If we don't reward with praise when we see something we like, why would the game designer keep doing it?

If we didn't give praise as well as critique, why should they listen to us? Why would they want to listen to us, if all we do is decry their efforts? As players with opinions we should try to encourage the creators to listen to our opinions otherwise, why give them? There's no reason to give an opinion if it's not going to be listened to, but what reason have they to listen to someone if they're only going to expound on the bad things they experience whilst playing? Think of it as training - encourage the good, discourage the bad.

And for fucks sake, just enjoy the game instead of questioning every other turn. Someone went to a lot of trouble to make that map, that dialogue, that plot. The least you could do when giving your opinion is to say at least one thing you liked about it.

CREATOR

I've gone through quite a journey to get to where I am as a game designer (and I laugh because that makes me sound like a professional!) and I've made a lot of mistakes along the way. I've been guilty of the slow text speed sin, the slow walk speed, random encounters, bland mapping, terrible music, some grammatical errors, never finishing games and hyping. Some of these I still do, but the difference now is that I do them deliberately, choose to do them for reasons, where as it was just because I could when I began (and didn't know better/hadn't realised how annoying they were.)

I've learned by playing others' games, listening to my game audience and taking what I can from others opinions. Does that mean I've changed every little thing to suit others' ideas? No. But I do listen to what they have to say and think about whether it's worth changing.

A quick example is an LT of one of my games where the LTer never bothered to grab the chests that were easy to see and get to, then complained about dying in the first battle because they hadn't bought anything at all (items or armour), bothered collecting treasure, listening to any NPCs or using skills. This kind of playing is, in my opinion, lazy and irritates me. As such, I listened to a few things that were said (tweaked the stats a tiny bit for the fights as watching that battle I'd noticed that some of the enemy skills were a little tougher than I'd meant them to be), but kept everything else the same.

Should I have changed things? No, I don't believe I needed to change everything that person said. They didn't invest time into playing correctly so I couldn't use what they said as proper critique. Does that mean they had nothing to say that could be relevant? No. I took a few ideas from the LT - some of them were mentioned by the LTer, some I noticed when watching them play. I chose to ignore a lot of what they said because they did not play correctly.

In a different game, where it's part of the plot that battles are challenging, I received a few comments that the battles were too hard and tweaked the battles a lot more. This I didn't mind doing as the players actually tried to do what they could to get past the battles.

As a creator of games I try to make them challenging and try to make the player use the things they're given to finish the game. (The way people ignore items really gets my goat, especially as they are usually ignored in battle strategy. A lot of people don't think of using them, hence die a lot. Okay, partly my fault for expecting people to just know that they need to use items, but partly their fault for not using what they were given (and I like to have a lot of treasure lying around to find... if players would just look). ;>.> )

Should I change a part of my game that is part of the design to make the game more challenging and interesting?

Maybe, maybe not. That is something I have to think hard about. Perhaps change the whole system, perhaps ignore completely, or maybe do a bit of both.

Take what you need from critiques. The more people mention something, the more it needs looking at, I guess. Just remember, in the end it's your choice.

I make game I would want to play - games with lots of treasures, side-quests and good stories/characters. To me, battle mechanics aren't high on the list, but I know a lot of people look at them as a major component of a game so I am pressured to create a battle system that others want to use. I could create a game that doesn't have battles but really, I want others to play my games and enjoy them. If, to do that, I need to have a working battle system that's interesting, I'll do it.
I'm making the core of the game for myself but other parts are for the benefit of the players so those parts I will listen to critique on a lot more than others.

I've had a lot of people ask me why I don't make games with better graphical style - saying that if I can do so well with the RTP, maybe I should try something else instead. I like the RTP and I enjoy making games with it, so I don't listen to those who say that except to tell them thanks for the compliment.

And always listen when it comes to bug reports!


(I may have gotten off track a little here and there... :P )

TL;DR?

Everything is a give and take. Give a little, take a little. Listen to some of what is said, but don't lose yourself to others' thoughts and ideas. Retain your signature but listen at times to what can make it better.

And go play more fucking games - good and bad!
author=max
THE PLAYER IS SOMETIMES WRONG.


I'm not saying this statement is wrong but... this point is rather meaningless when there's a key difference between a player and players (guess which matters more). Somewhere down the line your game's quality doesn't depend on how amazing your GAME DESIGN KNOWLEDGE is or even how much effort you spent on it. But it's how well you listen to your audience as a whole. If 10 people think your puzzle is shit, there's probably some good reason as to why it's bad, even if you thought the puzzle was a stroke of genius. That's something people shouldn't forget in the long run.
Never cater to player demands for ease, instant gratification or unwillingness to invest. That's pretty much my opinion on this.

Also ignorance, apathy etc.
C'est la vie and all but that just proves my point. I imagine the problem is changing with your second game?
chana
(Socrates would certainly not contadict me!)
1584
author=Fallen-Griever
It's alright to say that people should listen to the players, but it's kinda hard when they're not saying anything.
You have to understand , when a player really liked a game, he(she)'s like a spectator in a concert, he (she) wants to GIVE you back something, and it's not going to be by saying : point a/ .point b/.. etc, no but : "wow, I loved your game!"or "Thanks!".
Maybe if you're getting "better" feedback for the secong game, it's because people like it less?!!