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WHAT MAKES GAMES "FUN"?
Posts
Saya
30
Saya
View playlists
CloseWhat makes games "fun"? It's a bit of a hard question. In my personal experience, I like multiple things in games: exploration, treasure, puzzles, difficulty, a good story, an interesting world. I suppose, despite the fact that RPG cliches have been done to bits and pieces, there's still good fun in them.
For example, one of my favorites was Golden Sun. It was really a classic, but one of the things that made it special was the puzzle element. Instead of the standard switch/maze/other overdone RPG puzzle, it had its own system: Psyenergy. Psyenergy let you manipulate the terrain by tapping into the four elements: water, earth, wind, fire. It's a bit difficult to explain, but there were many abilities to use in different situations. True, after a while it became "oh look there's a puddle, let's use Frost on it to make it a pillar", but it was a good concept at its core.
In an RPG such as FFX, there are different things of interest. Let's not go into the Cloister of Trials puzzles, those were more annoying than fun. There is a bit of a tricky area in between puzzles that are too easy and puzzles that are too hard that can be easy to cross. Anyhow, what made FFX fun for me was the loot and the Sphere Grid. It can be a really powerful tool to let the user level up and choose (or pretend to) which stats they get. For some reason, the Licence Board in FFXII didn't do the job for me-- there, it was really easy to wind up with really similar characters who all knew the same spells. Ultimately, I think it would be a good idea to do something inbetween-- a sphere grid where some classes intersect, but most of the time do not. Still, programming that would be a huge hassle.
FFX had a good loot system. Why? Because Rikku could use the items on the enemies as attacks and in her limit breaks. Personally, I think the game would be a lot more fun if the player was forced to rely on that more often. Also, the loot could be used to customize weaponry-- and if the game was more difficult, the player would be more likely to consider making their own weapons for specific scenarios. For example, instead of switching to Lulu to take out the elemental fiends, you could reequip Tidus with an elemental sword for the same effect.
Personally, I advocate having the player find ways around the obvious solution rather than relying on tried and true strategies. I've always found the FFX self-imposed challenges inspiring, because the game seems too easy otherwise.
Then, to come again to my current dilemma... I'm making a side-scroller, Odin Sphere style. The problem is that Odin Sphere's charm relies on action battles, and no way am I skilled enough to program that. Side-view battles FFX style are the way I'm going. Which brings me to another problem: treasure chests. They just aren't nearly as fun to find when the game is a side-scroller. Same thing with puzzles-- they're just much more difficult to do. I think that I'm risking throwing all of the "fun" in the game onto the combat, and I don't want to put all my eggs in one basket.
Any advice? I might just end up submitting and doing the classic style RPG rather than a no-jumping side scroller. Alter AILA Genesis might have pulled it off, but truthfully, that game wasn't one of my favorites.
Confession: I've always wanted to make my own sequel to Golden Sun. And then Dark Dawn came out, so I suppose it's a little bit pointless now. OTL
For example, one of my favorites was Golden Sun. It was really a classic, but one of the things that made it special was the puzzle element. Instead of the standard switch/maze/other overdone RPG puzzle, it had its own system: Psyenergy. Psyenergy let you manipulate the terrain by tapping into the four elements: water, earth, wind, fire. It's a bit difficult to explain, but there were many abilities to use in different situations. True, after a while it became "oh look there's a puddle, let's use Frost on it to make it a pillar", but it was a good concept at its core.
In an RPG such as FFX, there are different things of interest. Let's not go into the Cloister of Trials puzzles, those were more annoying than fun. There is a bit of a tricky area in between puzzles that are too easy and puzzles that are too hard that can be easy to cross. Anyhow, what made FFX fun for me was the loot and the Sphere Grid. It can be a really powerful tool to let the user level up and choose (or pretend to) which stats they get. For some reason, the Licence Board in FFXII didn't do the job for me-- there, it was really easy to wind up with really similar characters who all knew the same spells. Ultimately, I think it would be a good idea to do something inbetween-- a sphere grid where some classes intersect, but most of the time do not. Still, programming that would be a huge hassle.
FFX had a good loot system. Why? Because Rikku could use the items on the enemies as attacks and in her limit breaks. Personally, I think the game would be a lot more fun if the player was forced to rely on that more often. Also, the loot could be used to customize weaponry-- and if the game was more difficult, the player would be more likely to consider making their own weapons for specific scenarios. For example, instead of switching to Lulu to take out the elemental fiends, you could reequip Tidus with an elemental sword for the same effect.
Personally, I advocate having the player find ways around the obvious solution rather than relying on tried and true strategies. I've always found the FFX self-imposed challenges inspiring, because the game seems too easy otherwise.
Then, to come again to my current dilemma... I'm making a side-scroller, Odin Sphere style. The problem is that Odin Sphere's charm relies on action battles, and no way am I skilled enough to program that. Side-view battles FFX style are the way I'm going. Which brings me to another problem: treasure chests. They just aren't nearly as fun to find when the game is a side-scroller. Same thing with puzzles-- they're just much more difficult to do. I think that I'm risking throwing all of the "fun" in the game onto the combat, and I don't want to put all my eggs in one basket.
Any advice? I might just end up submitting and doing the classic style RPG rather than a no-jumping side scroller. Alter AILA Genesis might have pulled it off, but truthfully, that game wasn't one of my favorites.
Confession: I've always wanted to make my own sequel to Golden Sun. And then Dark Dawn came out, so I suppose it's a little bit pointless now. OTL
Space_Monkey
366
I hated ffx's cloister of trials puzzles. They took a lot away from the game for me.
Tomoaky has a side scroller battle system. New over at vx just translated it if you're looking for one.
Tomoaky has a side scroller battle system. New over at vx just translated it if you're looking for one.
When I can beat a game without anger,frustration,or madness, that's the sign of the best game ever, and Sonic comes close to that.
Darken
3952
We had this topic a billion times before but I think the element that makes RPGs fun generally is the "stuff" you do in them. just like the cool adventures you go and the little neat moments. I tend to not give a fuck if I am going into yet another cave dungeon fighting rats.... but SEND ME IN COACH if I have to go inside some haunted mansion with a memorable phantom mask dude who sends piano monsters after you. past all the well programmed LOOT SYSTEMS, CUSTOM TIMED BATTLE ORDER SKILL REQUIRED FIGHTING THINGS, WOAH DAY NIGHT SYSTEM etc. the real fun comes from the interesting scenarios that you can mess around with.
author=Darken
We had this topic a billion times before but I think the element that makes RPGs fun generally is the "stuff" you do in them. just like the cool adventures you go and the little neat moments. I tend to not give a fuck if I am going into yet another cave dungeon fighting rats.... but SEND ME IN COACH if I have to go inside some haunted mansion with a memorable phantom mask dude who sends piano monsters after you. past all the well programmed LOOT SYSTEMS, CUSTOM TIMED BATTLE ORDER SKILL REQUIRED FIGHTING THINGS, WOAH DAY NIGHT SYSTEM etc. the real fun comes from the interesting scenarios that you can mess around with.
Yes. I think "fun" often comes from the little things like a character getting a particularly memorable one-liner or just generally getting to do something really awesome, or an emotional conflict between two characters rather than "another cave with more monsters in it." This is why I always advocate that you're 'doing it wrong' if you think story and characters don't matter in a game.
Carvonica
1023
author=Solitayreauthor=DarkenYes. I think "fun" often comes from the little things like a character getting a particularly memorable one-liner or just generally getting to do something really awesome, or an emotional conflict between two characters rather than "another cave with more monsters in it." This is why I always advocate that you're 'doing it wrong' if you think story and characters don't matter in a game.
We had this topic a billion times before but I think the element that makes RPGs fun generally is the "stuff" you do in them. just like the cool adventures you go and the little neat moments. I tend to not give a fuck if I am going into yet another cave dungeon fighting rats.... but SEND ME IN COACH if I have to go inside some haunted mansion with a memorable phantom mask dude who sends piano monsters after you. past all the well programmed LOOT SYSTEMS, CUSTOM TIMED BATTLE ORDER SKILL REQUIRED FIGHTING THINGS, WOAH DAY NIGHT SYSTEM etc. the real fun comes from the interesting scenarios that you can mess around with.
Story and characters generally don't matter in some games. I doubt anyone plays Call of Duty for "Soap" and "Oh, look! Nukes."
Darken
3952
we're talking about rpgs bro
edit: though thinking about it I really enjoyed the sniper mission in the first MW, the part where you're supposed to lay prone in the tall grass as enemy soldiers and tanks stroll over you. That moment sort of stuck out to me without any real complex programming or advanced GMAE DESING, even though the real drive of that game is just to feel good about shooting people in the face. i guess my main point sorta stands? like its not so much about story but more about "you are doing cool things"
edit: though thinking about it I really enjoyed the sniper mission in the first MW, the part where you're supposed to lay prone in the tall grass as enemy soldiers and tanks stroll over you. That moment sort of stuck out to me without any real complex programming or advanced GMAE DESING, even though the real drive of that game is just to feel good about shooting people in the face. i guess my main point sorta stands? like its not so much about story but more about "you are doing cool things"
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
That part of the game which causes pleasure or satisfaction in the player will be different for every game. It is the heart and soul of what you're trying to make - you start making a game because you have an idea that you think will be enjoyable. It's that simple. Essentially, I think you probably know what part of the game you find fun before you ever begin making it.
Once you have your idea, how much people actually enjoy it depends on two things: how well you succeed at creating it, and how similar to you they are. If your idea comes out exactly the way you imagined then you will enjoy it for exactly the reasons you imagined enjoying it. Other people will enjoy it to the degree they have similar tastes to you. You yourself (and people similar to you) will enjoy it less if it doesn't come out close to what you pictured; don't fret too much, since this happens with every game that's ever made. There are always issues that arise that keep you from making it perfect. That doesn't mean you can't get it close.
If you aren't sure your idea for a game is enjoyable, my advice is don't make it. Find something that, at least in your mind, you know for sure is a neat idea, and make that instead.
Of course, you can also sometimes accidentally make something that people find fun, but that's... not something you should really plan around.
Once you have your idea, how much people actually enjoy it depends on two things: how well you succeed at creating it, and how similar to you they are. If your idea comes out exactly the way you imagined then you will enjoy it for exactly the reasons you imagined enjoying it. Other people will enjoy it to the degree they have similar tastes to you. You yourself (and people similar to you) will enjoy it less if it doesn't come out close to what you pictured; don't fret too much, since this happens with every game that's ever made. There are always issues that arise that keep you from making it perfect. That doesn't mean you can't get it close.
If you aren't sure your idea for a game is enjoyable, my advice is don't make it. Find something that, at least in your mind, you know for sure is a neat idea, and make that instead.
Of course, you can also sometimes accidentally make something that people find fun, but that's... not something you should really plan around.
Yeaster
6164
I'm really easy to please. I draw most, if not all of my enjoyment from an RPG from the characters and plot. As long as the gameplay isn't ridiculously cheap and won't leave you hanging in terms of where to go next, I'll almost always enjoy it.
For action and/or survival-horror games, they just have to look cool and/or be scary.
For action and/or survival-horror games, they just have to look cool and/or be scary.
obsorber
50
The concept varies for different games. Like Yeaster said, horror games are usually the best when they are scary, have some interesting puzzles and game-play mechanics to fit withing the atmosphere. However I think RPG's are more difficult to make and to balance. I think RPG's are the hardest games to make because so much needs doing to them.
The answer my friend, is blowing in the wind.
I believe it's possible that two games with absolutely nothing in common are both a lot of fun. So there's no answer to this question.
I believe it's possible that two games with absolutely nothing in common are both a lot of fun. So there's no answer to this question.
author=calunioYou know...you actually make sense, but it comes to mind differently from person to person, watch out who you tell that.
The answer my friend, is blowing in the wind.
I believe it's possible that two games with absolutely nothing in common are both a lot of fun. So there's no answer to this question.
TheNecromancer
3160
author=Saya
Any advice?
I would suggest making a list of the types of things that can be done in the game. You mentioned there is no jumping, can you push stuff? go in doors? activate switches? can you skip enemies? are there NPCs? can you teleport? .... any basic actions.
Then try and figure out ways to make puzzles out of what the player can do. Instead of trying to take ideas for puzzles and make them work in your game. If you listed some of these actions and perhaps what type of level(forest,cave...) we can brainstorm some creative ways to do this :)
The best way to give the player something to do besides just battle is to introduce a game mechanic, have the player perform a simple task with it, then gradually make the tasks more complex. Then later as more game mechanics are introduced, combine some of them. It doesn't exactly have to be "puzzles". As long as there are multiple ways to utilize my existing abilities, I will enjoy exploring the game even if my brain isn't challenged.
ok, this is sort of off topic in the sense that it does not answer Saya's problem, but i've been thinking for a while about the answer to that question regarding amateur rpg games, well, as for me the core thing that makes a game fun, that makes this game different from all the others and catching is the personal impulse that's in it (see : inspired or creative). If you have that it's fun, or you can be professional and know all the tricks...
Games are fun when they engage the player, either through:
1) immersion in the world created by the game
2) challenges created by the game that require constructive thought and problem-solving
3) relaxation created by a simplified, cathartic rhythm-of-play or environment
I feel like typing about 10 posts' worth of analysis here, but I'm going to at least try and pay attention to my lecture so I'll leave it at that.
1) immersion in the world created by the game
2) challenges created by the game that require constructive thought and problem-solving
3) relaxation created by a simplified, cathartic rhythm-of-play or environment
I feel like typing about 10 posts' worth of analysis here, but I'm going to at least try and pay attention to my lecture so I'll leave it at that.
You might have to do the classic rpg style after all. What makes side scrollers fun is the use and manipulation of physics. Have you ever played Braid?
You've pretty much mentioned all the things that make games fun, so I will just add to what you said.
Side Quests!!!
Have you ever played Rune Factory? Rune Factory has a lot of options you can do to enjoy the game... I often lose sight of the real goal because I get so caught up in the other things you can do in the game. I will use Rune Factory 3 as an example.
Goal: Restore your character's memory! You do this by finding memories at the end of each seasonal dungeon in the game.
Things you can do in the game:
1. Plant, Harvest and Sell Crops
2. Fight Monsters
3. Tame Monsters to Care for and Help on the Farm
4. Befriend Townspeople: Can also Marry an Eligible Girl
5. Complete Quests for Townspeople
6. Participate in Town Festivals and Contests
7. Cook dishes from Ingredients you grow or collect from monsters
8. Mine for Ore
9. Forge Weapons, Defensive Gear, and Accessories
10. Make Medicine
11. Go Fishing
I could probably go on and on, but you get the point. There is a lot to do to keep you occupied in the game.
One other thing that I've found entertaining in games,(I will use Okami as an example) In Okami you collect Hidden Beads throughout the game. First: People love collecting things,(but only if they are rewarded for their effort). Second: Hide them in good places, its like searching for treasure. Third: Make the reward worth while, like Game art or special items etc.
I lied I have one more thing to add. I assume since you were going to make your game a side scroller that the player can see the enemies instead of having a "RANDOM ENCOUNTER!" Thats good, because random encounters can be really annoying.(unless your playing Pokemon...but even then its not so great.)
I hope this is mildly helpful.
You've pretty much mentioned all the things that make games fun, so I will just add to what you said.
Side Quests!!!
Have you ever played Rune Factory? Rune Factory has a lot of options you can do to enjoy the game... I often lose sight of the real goal because I get so caught up in the other things you can do in the game. I will use Rune Factory 3 as an example.
Goal: Restore your character's memory! You do this by finding memories at the end of each seasonal dungeon in the game.
Things you can do in the game:
1. Plant, Harvest and Sell Crops
2. Fight Monsters
3. Tame Monsters to Care for and Help on the Farm
4. Befriend Townspeople: Can also Marry an Eligible Girl
5. Complete Quests for Townspeople
6. Participate in Town Festivals and Contests
7. Cook dishes from Ingredients you grow or collect from monsters
8. Mine for Ore
9. Forge Weapons, Defensive Gear, and Accessories
10. Make Medicine
11. Go Fishing
I could probably go on and on, but you get the point. There is a lot to do to keep you occupied in the game.
One other thing that I've found entertaining in games,(I will use Okami as an example) In Okami you collect Hidden Beads throughout the game. First: People love collecting things,(but only if they are rewarded for their effort). Second: Hide them in good places, its like searching for treasure. Third: Make the reward worth while, like Game art or special items etc.
I lied I have one more thing to add. I assume since you were going to make your game a side scroller that the player can see the enemies instead of having a "RANDOM ENCOUNTER!" Thats good, because random encounters can be really annoying.(unless your playing Pokemon...but even then its not so great.)
I hope this is mildly helpful.
ChuJooRi
1035
For me, a game is fun when I am never bored while playing that game. If there's a point in the game that I wish would be over with faster, then it's not as fun anymore. However, story is also very important to me, so I guess sometimes story alone can make a game fun (for me). For example, let's say there are two dungeons. Both dungeons are identical.
The first dungeon is in a game where you have to get 5 crystals. It's one of the crystal dungeons. There's no other point to the dungeon then to get to the end and get the crystal. BOOOOORING!
For the second dungeon. Just before you enter it, the hero's sister (who DIED earlier or something) is seen running inside the dungeon. This dungeon is now more fun than the first one because I want to know what is going on and why the hero's sister is there.
Even though both are identical dungeons, the setting and the reason for going to that dungeon can make a game more or less fun. Of course, it all depends on the person playing the game.
The first dungeon is in a game where you have to get 5 crystals. It's one of the crystal dungeons. There's no other point to the dungeon then to get to the end and get the crystal. BOOOOORING!
For the second dungeon. Just before you enter it, the hero's sister (who DIED earlier or something) is seen running inside the dungeon. This dungeon is now more fun than the first one because I want to know what is going on and why the hero's sister is there.
Even though both are identical dungeons, the setting and the reason for going to that dungeon can make a game more or less fun. Of course, it all depends on the person playing the game.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
For the most part I believe we are talking about things under the designer's control; alcohol consumption is left up to the player.
Unless you are suggesting including a 12-pack of beer with every copy of the game.
Which is an idea I can totally get behind.
Unless you are suggesting including a 12-pack of beer with every copy of the game.
Which is an idea I can totally get behind.
