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vacant sky's failure and the trends of selling rtp to stupid humans
TFT- 06/25/2012 02:34 PM
- 47371 views
vacant sky awakening recently tried to "kickstart" it's way to success by generating 20k from people via crowdfunding. "reinventing" classical rpgs. a very bold thing to say, almost as bold as penny arcade's rain precipice for darkness saying in a lot of way's saying their game is visually "superior" than snes rpgs. first of all, fuck you dude, please do not make these ridiculous statements, especially when penny arcade is throwing the least amount of money to create
ff6 edits: check
grandia battle system: check
hand drawn images not blending with pixels: check
i totally agree. it is vastly superior than:
-bird-
reinventing rpgs. with the crowdfunding goal of 20k. is 20k a lot? i would assume it is by any standard. let's take a look at the trailer, and you decide.
so you're treated with a lot of voice acting and then anime images panning across the screen. fair enough, that's not bad at all. i can let the anime slide because that is just, this generations standard for "art". the problem lies when you see actual gameplay. not only do you have charset move up, it's so hollow, so uninspiring that it's just, i couldn't believe this thing is trying to generate 20k. the battle system is unfinished there is absolutely no sneak peak in the trailer at all for the "reinventing" of rpgs. infact, the video software that does the impressive visual effects is more entertaining than the game itself.
i will tell you how much rtp move up generated just by this trailer alone. almost 10k. now, if the set amount is 20k, which is ridiculous, and if the guy who created this game (this is a team effort btw lol wut) does the crowd funding again, and drops it to 10k, you know he's just trying to get any kind of money for whatever reason. someone actually asked what the money would be used for and the reply was deadspace.
where is the reinventing? all i see is a guy trying to slip through the cracks trying to get a ton of fucking money for as little work as possible. i'm going to say this right now, because i truly believe this, and that is i want rm designer to succeed. i want nothing more than to see these amazingly creative people get taken seriously. but when we have guys like this saying you're reinventing rpg's with rtp garbage, and try to sell it commercially you're just apart of the problem.
if you're going to crowdfund. and if you're going to ask for 20k. that's a REALLY big step, and that's a really big deal. and you know what dude, the least you, or anyone else can do is put the fucking effort behind it. get a prototype, make the game on your own, stop using stock resources not even created for your game. it's a joke, man, that you have the melons to actually post a game like that asking for 20k.
you might be thinking, tft, get out baddie, fair enough, but i'm not specifically addressing vacant sky. let's take a look unemployment quest.
generated 10k. and for what? the guy has 10k, okay. he isn't even humanly capable of getting a composer to fit the games musical quality. that should be a red flag right there. this guy is so bad, he didn't even take the time and effort to do anything with the battle set up, yeah, he used the default "everything". why exactly is he being rewarded for this? 10 for a faceset with a weird rape face.
unemployment quest guy, fuck you bro. people like you getting carried is the reason vacant sky thinks it can too.
here it comes. the grand daddy of all. holy shit it just might blow your socks off. i'm scared to even write about it, because it's so taboo. echoes of eternia. the mother of all crowdfunding scams when it comes to rpgmaker. where does one even begin? i... i can't. i can't do this to someone who might read this. it's just too painful. i refuse.
since theres no youtube, theres no official website for this i would post the crowdfunding link, but it is just too disgusting. 40k friends. 40k.
http://i.imgur.com/UJjGP.jpg
oh my god, dude, stop hiding your shitty game behind clever wording! now, you're probably saying to yourself. lolujelly bro. sure, why not. let's get that out of the way. i am jealous that people can produce no effort and no work, and get paid like a boss. i'm not jealous of their work though. um, it's just that there is all this weird stuff happening outside the rm community, i feel like this should be broadcasted to you because it feels like rm designers live on another planet sometimes.
even to the moon was a stretch. it was an alright concept, considering it had 0 gameplay. and the fact that it lagged so bad on my brand new computer.
look man, it sounds harsh, but believe me, i love indie games, i love games in general. i love the concept of creation and creativity. the power to do incredible things. i don't have a problem with people who want to toy around and make rtp games and using the resources available to them to make a project. i do have a problem with people who think they should be getting 40k for doing so.
if you're prepared to make that step, put the fucking effort into the game you assholes. i know the circle jerk community gives the illusion that your game is the new final fantasy 6, but it's not dude, there are people in the indie scene doing crazy amazing things while you're still using rtp tiles.
i love indie, i love supporting games. fez was made by 2 people, super meat boy is made by a few people. iconoclasts, let's talk about iconoclasts.
one guy, managed to create amazing music for himself, the most bitchin' graphics, incredible gameplay, and it's a unique experience. this should be the standard, but it's not. games like this should be funded. and it's a tragedy if it isn't.
as long as these games like unemployment quest keep getting successful, it just keeps pushing that idea that rm games are infact shitty, and a joke. there are many games here that i would easily pay 5 bucks to experience. but those games also put to time and the effort to be different and unique, even with the resource restriction, and you can tell the difference in quality.
if you think i'm a dick, don't agree, i'm jelly, etc, ect. fair enough. i respect your opinions, that's totally your right. i wouldn't blame you.
if these rants interest you, there will be plenty more at
http://audiomew.tumblr.com/
ff6 edits: check
grandia battle system: check
hand drawn images not blending with pixels: check
i totally agree. it is vastly superior than:
-bird-
reinventing rpgs. with the crowdfunding goal of 20k. is 20k a lot? i would assume it is by any standard. let's take a look at the trailer, and you decide.
so you're treated with a lot of voice acting and then anime images panning across the screen. fair enough, that's not bad at all. i can let the anime slide because that is just, this generations standard for "art". the problem lies when you see actual gameplay. not only do you have charset move up, it's so hollow, so uninspiring that it's just, i couldn't believe this thing is trying to generate 20k. the battle system is unfinished there is absolutely no sneak peak in the trailer at all for the "reinventing" of rpgs. infact, the video software that does the impressive visual effects is more entertaining than the game itself.
i will tell you how much rtp move up generated just by this trailer alone. almost 10k. now, if the set amount is 20k, which is ridiculous, and if the guy who created this game (this is a team effort btw lol wut) does the crowd funding again, and drops it to 10k, you know he's just trying to get any kind of money for whatever reason. someone actually asked what the money would be used for and the reply was deadspace.
where is the reinventing? all i see is a guy trying to slip through the cracks trying to get a ton of fucking money for as little work as possible. i'm going to say this right now, because i truly believe this, and that is i want rm designer to succeed. i want nothing more than to see these amazingly creative people get taken seriously. but when we have guys like this saying you're reinventing rpg's with rtp garbage, and try to sell it commercially you're just apart of the problem.
if you're going to crowdfund. and if you're going to ask for 20k. that's a REALLY big step, and that's a really big deal. and you know what dude, the least you, or anyone else can do is put the fucking effort behind it. get a prototype, make the game on your own, stop using stock resources not even created for your game. it's a joke, man, that you have the melons to actually post a game like that asking for 20k.
you might be thinking, tft, get out baddie, fair enough, but i'm not specifically addressing vacant sky. let's take a look unemployment quest.
generated 10k. and for what? the guy has 10k, okay. he isn't even humanly capable of getting a composer to fit the games musical quality. that should be a red flag right there. this guy is so bad, he didn't even take the time and effort to do anything with the battle set up, yeah, he used the default "everything". why exactly is he being rewarded for this? 10 for a faceset with a weird rape face.
author=ciel
Anyone can produce something resembling an "old school" game in RPG Maker within several seconds. This does not mean they are an "indie" game developer, or capable of a level of design and production worthy of anyone's pledge. Before supporting a project, ascertain that the developer is communicating clear, specific ideas about his design and vision for the game. Vague, tired platitudes about how "classic" or "traditional" it's going to be are not a guarantee of quality. Design philosophy, gameplay specifics, and solid reasoning are things to look for when determining which projects to fund. Use your eyes and brain before throwing money at any kid with a copy of RPG Maker. Quality, skill, and dedication should be evident.
******************
A comment the creator made on this video and deleted:
Dude, why does my game's success make you so upset? If you? use RPG Maker you should be aware that it takes more than 30 seconds to craft something worth playing. And charging $5 for a copy is considerably less than most commercial RPG Maker games. I'm sorry my game upsets you so much. But it's not like I ever said it wasn't made in RPG Maker and the ability to sell RPG Maker games has long been one of the selling points of the program.
--
Even if you say it's RPG Maker, most people aren't aware of what that entails and don't know that the content you are showing already exists in the engine when you click "New Project". They just see something that looks like a "Classic RPG" and can't discern between pre-made content and a genuine effort. Asking for money when you can't even be bothered to change something as simple as the default monster formations is shameful, and presenting it as your own work (for which you expect to be compensated) is insincere. Buyer beware, etc.
unemployment quest guy, fuck you bro. people like you getting carried is the reason vacant sky thinks it can too.
here it comes. the grand daddy of all. holy shit it just might blow your socks off. i'm scared to even write about it, because it's so taboo. echoes of eternia. the mother of all crowdfunding scams when it comes to rpgmaker. where does one even begin? i... i can't. i can't do this to someone who might read this. it's just too painful. i refuse.
since theres no youtube, theres no official website for this i would post the crowdfunding link, but it is just too disgusting. 40k friends. 40k.
http://i.imgur.com/UJjGP.jpg
oh my god, dude, stop hiding your shitty game behind clever wording! now, you're probably saying to yourself. lolujelly bro. sure, why not. let's get that out of the way. i am jealous that people can produce no effort and no work, and get paid like a boss. i'm not jealous of their work though. um, it's just that there is all this weird stuff happening outside the rm community, i feel like this should be broadcasted to you because it feels like rm designers live on another planet sometimes.
even to the moon was a stretch. it was an alright concept, considering it had 0 gameplay. and the fact that it lagged so bad on my brand new computer.
look man, it sounds harsh, but believe me, i love indie games, i love games in general. i love the concept of creation and creativity. the power to do incredible things. i don't have a problem with people who want to toy around and make rtp games and using the resources available to them to make a project. i do have a problem with people who think they should be getting 40k for doing so.
if you're prepared to make that step, put the fucking effort into the game you assholes. i know the circle jerk community gives the illusion that your game is the new final fantasy 6, but it's not dude, there are people in the indie scene doing crazy amazing things while you're still using rtp tiles.
i love indie, i love supporting games. fez was made by 2 people, super meat boy is made by a few people. iconoclasts, let's talk about iconoclasts.
one guy, managed to create amazing music for himself, the most bitchin' graphics, incredible gameplay, and it's a unique experience. this should be the standard, but it's not. games like this should be funded. and it's a tragedy if it isn't.
as long as these games like unemployment quest keep getting successful, it just keeps pushing that idea that rm games are infact shitty, and a joke. there are many games here that i would easily pay 5 bucks to experience. but those games also put to time and the effort to be different and unique, even with the resource restriction, and you can tell the difference in quality.
if you think i'm a dick, don't agree, i'm jelly, etc, ect. fair enough. i respect your opinions, that's totally your right. i wouldn't blame you.
if these rants interest you, there will be plenty more at
http://audiomew.tumblr.com/
Posts 
Perihelion
665
View playlists
CloseCielReally? You're saying that this blog post is some kind of cultural critique that's intended to improve RM games? There's a huge difference between saying "this is bad and this is how it's bad; let's do better in the future" and setting out to tear someone down out of malice. And I don't know what to call this except malice, because this blog post just calls the games bad and makes vague, sarcastic comments about them without actually offering any useful or interesting insight. "Don't use the RTP" isn't useful; there's no realistic alternative for a long RPG with a small budget (see my previous post). Moreover, TFT relies on assertions that are blatantly not true, namely suggesting the Kickstarters didn't say what they were going to do with the money, to paint the developers as greedy--an attack that has nothing to do with the quality of the games, mind you. I have a hard time thinking it could be a mistake since it's so hard to miss the funding breakdowns if you actually look at the Kickstarters (which, by the way, TFT didn't link to).
tft making this blog post saying, 'hey, this is some bullshit. what is going on here' is the only modern form of cultural filter we have. it is a society reacting against a grievous lack of virtue in the artworks it is producing, and through this process cultural consensus is achieved, so that the form can be developed upon in the future.
This post isn't about the games. It's about insulting the developers, and it's sending the message that if you dare ask for money for an RPG Maker game, your fellow RM users will vilify you. Seriously, how is this improving the art form? This kind of deceptive, mean-spirited bullshit is poisoning the community, not improving it.
Monthigos
33
This has been a thoroughly fascinating thread and I read every single post. I'm not sure what else I can contribute to the discussion that hasn't been said already said. :)
author=Anaryu
then get mad when others try to turn it into a profession by using skills other than amazing pixel art or mind-bending plots, because to us that is the "important part" of our "art."
it, among other things, are the important part. is there something wrong with this?
author=Anaryu
We're sour when someone's work that doesn't seem as hard or as sacrosanct as our own gets them more acclaim or, worse yet, they "sell out" and get MONEY.
and are very right to. as a society it is just as important to denounce and reject poor work as it is to celebrate fine work. in the 18th century when educated aristocrats were in control of everything, quality painting, music, and writing was at the forefront of culture in france, germany, and italy. because the people who determined which work was successful and which artists were paid knew what they were talking about better than the average human being.
the composers who wrote music and performed for the court did so because the court knew they were good and rewarded them directly. those who weren't good were ignored and remained in obscurity. that filter doesn't exist now. capitalism is the status quo and nobody cares about anything but money, so anything that can potentially make money is acceptable. people like garbage because they don't know any better.
talking about it promotes awareness. as a society it is important that we develop an understanding of our artistic mediums. painting, writing, music, and film grew more sophisticated and their possibilities more diverse because each developed in an environment where there was always a certain academic precedent and oversight.
the study of what worked and didn't work, which art was effective and which was not, slowly and over generations of virtuous craftsmen led to works of increasing sophistication, from cave paintings to romanticism etc. this development cannot happen if there is no cultural filter based on a general understanding of the craft amongst the people and those chiefly responsible for the particular art form's pedagogy.
in other words, the next generation isn't going to produce superior work and move the field forward unless they are able to achieve an understanding of the last generation's strengths and failings. games are the most contemporary artform and, having developed in a hypercapitalist civilization and alongside the internet, there is absolutely no cultural filter on the medium like there was on film which developed only in the last century.
anyone can make a game and there is nobody 'in charge' like the old aristocrats or the old film studios who knew what a quality piece of work looked like, so people are making any sort of garbage they can and are being rewarded for it. time moves much faster now, societies and cultures change at an incredible pace, so things like default dbs vx games receiving 40,000 american dollarbills, it's the equivalent of continuing to make cave paintings for two thousand years. mud finger paintings of elk on the walls of versailles. imagine that. we are living it.
this process of culture sorting out what is good and bad/getting mad over poor work that you are derisively describing is the reason music developed from some gay bard strumming a lute to palestrina's species counterpoint to j.s. bach's art of fugue to every 19th century composer studying and building on what bach did, to radical explorations of harmony in the 20th century, and so on. this did not happen because human civilization kept rewarding the bard's exquisite monophony over and over and over. if that were to happen it is of paramount importance to our civilization that you get really fucking mad about it.
tft making this blog post saying, 'hey, this is some bullshit. what is going on here' is the only modern form of cultural filter we have. it is a society reacting against a grievous lack of virtue in the artworks it is producing, and through this process cultural consensus is achieved, so that the form can be developed upon in the future.
it is not as effective as some awesome and powerful individual like gustav iii of sweden personally funding artists or court nobles directly giving jobs to mozart, etc, but it's all we've got in this world where the most powerful, rich, influential individuals of our time only care about getting a diamond encrusted chalice for their office master bathroom and will happily sell 'breath of death' to achieve it.
but yeah, also, make your own fantastic work and make it known. to not do so is letting 'the enemy' win.
Anaryu
8848
The RM Community has always valued originality in art and design because it's how we differentiate ourselves and establish our superiority.
We hate things that encroach on our territory or are more popular than we are.
We hate seeing other people do something we don't have the guts to do.
We hate people who do it before we think of it.
We're sour when someone's work that doesn't seem as hard or as sacrosanct as our own gets them more acclaim or, worse yet, they "sell out" and get MONEY.
We treat making games as a hobby, but then get mad when others try to turn it into a profession by using skills other than amazing pixel art or mind-bending plots, because to us that is the "important part" of our "art." (Even though every other "art" has the same problem and the commercialization is always heavily criticized, yet remains much more profitable.)
We want to ignore the fact that marketing, management, and other skills are just as important in the field of actually selling a game versus just making one, and it's a bitter pill that reality makes us choke down and then bitch about in our community forums.
It's true that my hackles and anger rise seeing some of those projects get funded, "I've done way more creative stuff in my sleep!" my mind screams. "What about all the hours my wife put into art work?" (Which is pure shit to the art aficionados because it's 'anime' anyway, but still...)
"Look at the quality of this stuff, I can't believe people would put money towards this!"
If people are willing to pay for these awful things however, it's our own fault.
Why aren't we making and selling these "things we could do so much better" - if it's that easy and we're that good, we should put our money where our mouths are.
But we almost never do. It takes so much time to make the resources, we have jobs, quality can't be rushed, we're not using pre-made resources so it takes longer, we don't want to release something until it's perfect, the list goes on.
I've been on the front-line of business because I started along with a small company founded by a business genius. I stuck with them at a low pay initially because I KNEW how good he was and he knew I was loyal and hard-working; it's paid off quite well and I have a stable and well-paying job.
Watching our company grow, what worked and what didn't, seeing other companies, etc, I learned that excuses are just that. Results are all that matters in the end.
If your goal is to enjoy making your hobby game, then a good result is you enjoy it. And if you do enjoy it, who cares that some other RM game is making 20K for doing "nothing?"
If the goal if wanting to prove you're above all these hacks that don't conform to your vision, then you'll be dealing with a bitter draught as these 'hacks' sell or get funding for games you wouldn't waste spit on.
Thankfully we have the happy times regurgitating how shitty and unoriginal and cheap everyone else is in our close-knit little communities! That ego stroking is our safe haven, our calm center in the storm of mediocre games. And hell fires upon any that would disturb it!
We hate things that encroach on our territory or are more popular than we are.
We hate seeing other people do something we don't have the guts to do.
We hate people who do it before we think of it.
We're sour when someone's work that doesn't seem as hard or as sacrosanct as our own gets them more acclaim or, worse yet, they "sell out" and get MONEY.
We treat making games as a hobby, but then get mad when others try to turn it into a profession by using skills other than amazing pixel art or mind-bending plots, because to us that is the "important part" of our "art." (Even though every other "art" has the same problem and the commercialization is always heavily criticized, yet remains much more profitable.)
We want to ignore the fact that marketing, management, and other skills are just as important in the field of actually selling a game versus just making one, and it's a bitter pill that reality makes us choke down and then bitch about in our community forums.
It's true that my hackles and anger rise seeing some of those projects get funded, "I've done way more creative stuff in my sleep!" my mind screams. "What about all the hours my wife put into art work?" (Which is pure shit to the art aficionados because it's 'anime' anyway, but still...)
"Look at the quality of this stuff, I can't believe people would put money towards this!"
If people are willing to pay for these awful things however, it's our own fault.
Why aren't we making and selling these "things we could do so much better" - if it's that easy and we're that good, we should put our money where our mouths are.
But we almost never do. It takes so much time to make the resources, we have jobs, quality can't be rushed, we're not using pre-made resources so it takes longer, we don't want to release something until it's perfect, the list goes on.
I've been on the front-line of business because I started along with a small company founded by a business genius. I stuck with them at a low pay initially because I KNEW how good he was and he knew I was loyal and hard-working; it's paid off quite well and I have a stable and well-paying job.
Watching our company grow, what worked and what didn't, seeing other companies, etc, I learned that excuses are just that. Results are all that matters in the end.
If your goal is to enjoy making your hobby game, then a good result is you enjoy it. And if you do enjoy it, who cares that some other RM game is making 20K for doing "nothing?"
If the goal if wanting to prove you're above all these hacks that don't conform to your vision, then you'll be dealing with a bitter draught as these 'hacks' sell or get funding for games you wouldn't waste spit on.
Thankfully we have the happy times regurgitating how shitty and unoriginal and cheap everyone else is in our close-knit little communities! That ego stroking is our safe haven, our calm center in the storm of mediocre games. And hell fires upon any that would disturb it!
Gonna agree with Perihelion here.
I can totally see why Unemployment Quest is enraging, but the other two, frankly, I don't have an issue with.
I can totally see why Unemployment Quest is enraging, but the other two, frankly, I don't have an issue with.
Perihelion
665
Graphics aren't even remotely the only expensive part of making a game. I specifically outlined where they're using the money and indicated how expensive these things are (seriously, read my post again). Yes, using the RTP is a shortcut. But it doesn't mean making the game is free, it means it costs less. So $10,000 or $20,000 instead of upwards of $50,000 or $60,000 just for assets, never mind money to live on.
I don't see where you're getting that VSA and EoE aren't putting in effort or making their own resources. They both have a lot of custom art assets, just not 100% original ones. They're also both going to have fully original soundtracks. And both say they're porting to custom engines after the Kickstarter, which is a huge amount of work. Even before that, the VSA prototype clearly had an original battle system. These things take time and cost money.
Also, the thing about RM is that if you don't use the built-in battle system, it doesn't do that much more work for you than any other engine. RM is a useful engine because the map editor is great (at least in XP) and event commands are useful for cutscenes and whatnot. Unless you're using everything straight out of the box (as the UQ guy is doing, but the others don't seem to be), it doesn't actually make the game for you, it just makes making the game easier. That's the point of an engine. It's not like professionals don't also use engines to shorten development time.
I don't see where you're getting that VSA and EoE aren't putting in effort or making their own resources. They both have a lot of custom art assets, just not 100% original ones. They're also both going to have fully original soundtracks. And both say they're porting to custom engines after the Kickstarter, which is a huge amount of work. Even before that, the VSA prototype clearly had an original battle system. These things take time and cost money.
Also, the thing about RM is that if you don't use the built-in battle system, it doesn't do that much more work for you than any other engine. RM is a useful engine because the map editor is great (at least in XP) and event commands are useful for cutscenes and whatnot. Unless you're using everything straight out of the box (as the UQ guy is doing, but the others don't seem to be), it doesn't actually make the game for you, it just makes making the game easier. That's the point of an engine. It's not like professionals don't also use engines to shorten development time.
Marcus
436
Perihelion, You are totally right.
Commercial games do cost a lot to make, graphics are expensive, that's the whole reason kick starter exists. People are pointing out that going on kickstarter then using rtp is kind of an abuse of that because you aren't paying anyone to make expensive graphics for you, you're just keeping 100% of that money as prophet.
That iphone game cost all those dollars to make because they actually MADE bits of it. Code, graphics sound effects, music. If you use a game making application for all those things and still get paid as if you've made a commercial game it's kind of slack.
Not illegal or outrageous, just a bit of a lame thing to do.
Commercial games do cost a lot to make, graphics are expensive, that's the whole reason kick starter exists. People are pointing out that going on kickstarter then using rtp is kind of an abuse of that because you aren't paying anyone to make expensive graphics for you, you're just keeping 100% of that money as prophet.
That iphone game cost all those dollars to make because they actually MADE bits of it. Code, graphics sound effects, music. If you use a game making application for all those things and still get paid as if you've made a commercial game it's kind of slack.
Not illegal or outrageous, just a bit of a lame thing to do.
Perihelion
665
You're certainly entitled to think these games aren't worth your money, but I really don't understand the outrage over the price tag and use of the RTP. Ten or twenty grand is certainly a substantial amount of money (never mind that after taxes and Kickstarter's cut, it's actually a lot less than that), but do any of you realize how much making a commercial game actually costs?
Let me put this in perspective. Check out this really basic color-matching iPhone game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwMiuHWwQNQ
You know how much this game cost to make? $32,000. That covers paying contractors, business expenses, and the developer paying himself a small salary over the six-month development period. (source) In case you think that's some freakish anomaly, according to this site, an average iPhone game costs $10,000 to $125,000 to make depending on complexity.
A big part of that price tag is art, because good art is expensive, and RPGs in particular are very asset-intensive. For a commercial game, you need commercial-quality graphics. For those of you decrying the use of the RTP, where exactly are you suggesting the replacement graphics come from? If an artist charges you $30/hour and takes three days to make a tileset, that's $18,000 for half as many tilesets as come with the XP RTP. There went your entire $20,000 Kickstarter, never mind sprites. And battle graphics. And character portraits. And animations. And GUI. These games would need to be asking for a lot more than $20k if they wanted to replace the RTP with graphics of similar quality. Oh, and don't forget you need audio too.
Or are you expecting commercial RM developers to make all of their graphics themselves? Because that's months and months of work and will probably result in an inferior product (unless the developer happens to be a talented artist). The thing is, the vast majority of non-RM users would prefer to play a game with RTP than a more expensive and/or significantly delayed game with worse graphics. Since you paid for the license to use the graphics when you bought the engine, how is it unethical? Is it wrong for advertisers to pay bands for the rights to use their songs in commercials? Or use stock photos that they pay a license fee for? It's the same thing.
Also, this blog post is somewhat misleading. Although there are plenty of legitimate criticisms, I take issue with some of the things TFT said. Specifically:
The VSA KS has this in the main body:
Sounds like they only used the RTP for promotional materials until they got funded. Although that said, porting the game to all major platforms is going to be hideously expensive on its own. Not only do you need to buy all the software and developer licenses, you also need cheap test devices to make sure your game runs correctly on each platform.
The guy specifically says in the trailer that he's commissioning a soundtrack, art, and animations and also paying legal fees. That seems reasonable to me, since according to this, you can expect to pay $100/minute for music as an indie.
Also, since they exceeded their goal by so much, the Kickstarter now says that they're porting to a custom engine. Presumably this will also necessitate non-RTP graphics since the RTP license doesn't apply to non-RM engines.
You seem to be equating using RTP with not putting any work in, but the core aspects of the game--writing, design, and programming--are what determine whether it's good or not. Graphics can help the experience, but ultimately they're just dressing. Making a game, even a bad game using unoriginal graphics, takes a lot of time and effort. Unemployment Quest seems to only put in the bare minimum, but EoE and VSA certainly show signs of care and effort.
No, the guy thought he should get $10k to commission a soundtrack with. People paid more than that, and now he's investing that money into the game, as you can see on their KS.
Really? Like what? Are any of them long, finished, and use fully original content?
Although it seems like the Unemployment Quest guy is just pocketing the extra money, EoE and VSA specifically outlined legitimate development costs and asked for reasonable figures to meet their needs. It's totally disingenuous to imply that they were asking for huge stacks of money just because they want to roll around in piles of it. I'd be surprised if they could afford to pay themselves even a tiny salary based on the needs they listed and how much they asked for. Unless you get really lucky, it's not like indie game development is a free ride on the gravy train. It's clear to me at least that EoE and VSA are being made from passion, not greed, regardless of whether they're good or not. And even if you think they're terrible, it doesn't mean people are wrong for supporting them.
Let me put this in perspective. Check out this really basic color-matching iPhone game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwMiuHWwQNQ
You know how much this game cost to make? $32,000. That covers paying contractors, business expenses, and the developer paying himself a small salary over the six-month development period. (source) In case you think that's some freakish anomaly, according to this site, an average iPhone game costs $10,000 to $125,000 to make depending on complexity.
A big part of that price tag is art, because good art is expensive, and RPGs in particular are very asset-intensive. For a commercial game, you need commercial-quality graphics. For those of you decrying the use of the RTP, where exactly are you suggesting the replacement graphics come from? If an artist charges you $30/hour and takes three days to make a tileset, that's $18,000 for half as many tilesets as come with the XP RTP. There went your entire $20,000 Kickstarter, never mind sprites. And battle graphics. And character portraits. And animations. And GUI. These games would need to be asking for a lot more than $20k if they wanted to replace the RTP with graphics of similar quality. Oh, and don't forget you need audio too.
Or are you expecting commercial RM developers to make all of their graphics themselves? Because that's months and months of work and will probably result in an inferior product (unless the developer happens to be a talented artist). The thing is, the vast majority of non-RM users would prefer to play a game with RTP than a more expensive and/or significantly delayed game with worse graphics. Since you paid for the license to use the graphics when you bought the engine, how is it unethical? Is it wrong for advertisers to pay bands for the rights to use their songs in commercials? Or use stock photos that they pay a license fee for? It's the same thing.
Also, this blog post is somewhat misleading. Although there are plenty of legitimate criticisms, I take issue with some of the things TFT said. Specifically:
TFT
someone actually asked what the money would be used for and the reply was deadspace.
The VSA KS has this in the main body:
VSA
Funding
We currently have a playable prototype up and running for the PC. We intend to use the money from the Kickstarter to expand this prototype into a full game using XNA and Monogame to target all major platforms.
Artistically, we want to replace the placeholder graphics and create battle animations, storyline/cutscene illustrations throughout the game, and emotive portraits for all of the characters in the game. To help with the soundtrack, the money will also be spent on audio equipment (8-channel MBox with Pro Tools).
Sounds like they only used the RTP for promotional materials until they got funded. Although that said, porting the game to all major platforms is going to be hideously expensive on its own. Not only do you need to buy all the software and developer licenses, you also need cheap test devices to make sure your game runs correctly on each platform.
TFT
> only justification given for the money is better "quality"
The guy specifically says in the trailer that he's commissioning a soundtrack, art, and animations and also paying legal fees. That seems reasonable to me, since according to this, you can expect to pay $100/minute for music as an indie.
Also, since they exceeded their goal by so much, the Kickstarter now says that they're porting to a custom engine. Presumably this will also necessitate non-RTP graphics since the RTP license doesn't apply to non-RM engines.
TFT
i am jealous that people can produce no effort and no work,
You seem to be equating using RTP with not putting any work in, but the core aspects of the game--writing, design, and programming--are what determine whether it's good or not. Graphics can help the experience, but ultimately they're just dressing. Making a game, even a bad game using unoriginal graphics, takes a lot of time and effort. Unemployment Quest seems to only put in the bare minimum, but EoE and VSA certainly show signs of care and effort.
TFT
i do have a problem with people who think they should be getting 40k for doing so.
No, the guy thought he should get $10k to commission a soundtrack with. People paid more than that, and now he's investing that money into the game, as you can see on their KS.
TFT
there are many games here that i would easily pay 5 bucks to experience. but those games also put to time and the effort to be different and unique, even with the resource restriction, and you can tell the difference in quality.
Really? Like what? Are any of them long, finished, and use fully original content?
Although it seems like the Unemployment Quest guy is just pocketing the extra money, EoE and VSA specifically outlined legitimate development costs and asked for reasonable figures to meet their needs. It's totally disingenuous to imply that they were asking for huge stacks of money just because they want to roll around in piles of it. I'd be surprised if they could afford to pay themselves even a tiny salary based on the needs they listed and how much they asked for. Unless you get really lucky, it's not like indie game development is a free ride on the gravy train. It's clear to me at least that EoE and VSA are being made from passion, not greed, regardless of whether they're good or not. And even if you think they're terrible, it doesn't mean people are wrong for supporting them.
Luthan
0
And I am not making blog articles where I am whining about others. I prefer to play the good games and have fun. Instead of whining all the day because I don't like something. Because whining is not fun.
Marcus
436
That's nice coming from Luthan. He'd be an expert and all, having uploaded no games and submitted no reviews.
author=Luthan
This blog article is only whining and jealousy because nobody is paying you money. You should just shut the fuck up and make your own games. And try to make better games first before complaining about the others. Whining about others always means that you are not able to produce anything worthy.
i'll try, man i'll really try, but with these blockbuster games floating around, i..i don't think i can!
Darken
3952
TFT's such a babe
I think people are forgetting that you don't absolutely need money to make a game. Yes you can hire people to make graphics, code etc. or even allow the game maker to dedicate his/her full time to making the game. But that really only applies to like... a professional looking product for the sake of looking all pretty and nice. I kind of like how Yahtzee despite not being good at coding/graphics made his own games without other peoples help. Hell he made a metroidvania game despite being a huge e-celeb. He just whipped up game maker, made his own graphics that look decent enough. He could have made some help topic like in RMN "need artists/programmers/roof designers/porn stars" or w/e and easily made advanced visual interactive entertainment.
Then again idk, maybe he'll turn around and pull an ara fell xp on everyone. But yeah someone said before that ACTUAL developers who's potential projects that can't be greenlit by publishers are really the only ones worth funding. But even then there's a slippery slope: http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/6/27/3099051/backers-rights-what-kickstarter-funders-can-expect-when-they-pledge if the game is cancelled or turns out to be a sham, as long as the project is successfully funded. Anything goes. Think I'm only gonna spend my spare change on food at this point.
I think people are forgetting that you don't absolutely need money to make a game. Yes you can hire people to make graphics, code etc. or even allow the game maker to dedicate his/her full time to making the game. But that really only applies to like... a professional looking product for the sake of looking all pretty and nice. I kind of like how Yahtzee despite not being good at coding/graphics made his own games without other peoples help. Hell he made a metroidvania game despite being a huge e-celeb. He just whipped up game maker, made his own graphics that look decent enough. He could have made some help topic like in RMN "need artists/programmers/roof designers/porn stars" or w/e and easily made advanced visual interactive entertainment.
Then again idk, maybe he'll turn around and pull an ara fell xp on everyone. But yeah someone said before that ACTUAL developers who's potential projects that can't be greenlit by publishers are really the only ones worth funding. But even then there's a slippery slope: http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/6/27/3099051/backers-rights-what-kickstarter-funders-can-expect-when-they-pledge if the game is cancelled or turns out to be a sham, as long as the project is successfully funded. Anything goes. Think I'm only gonna spend my spare change on food at this point.
hima
4237
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1465600975/echoes-of-eternia-a-modern-take-on-a-classic-desig/posts
From their updates, they no longer use RPG Maker anymore, and money are now spent on original artworks for the game.
@Luthan
I agree with you up until you call TFT jealous. I don't think she's jealous at all. I think she's just upset that these games got or almost got the monetary reward she doesn't think they deserve.
@Ghost
I don't think setting a goal at 20k and let people decide whether it's reasonable or not, can be compared to EA putting game dev studios out of business.
I'm not sure what to response to other points you've mentioned, since I think I've already addressed those in my previous post.
@Kentona
For me, I don't see a problem with that. I think the amount of time the creator spent on the game has as much or even more value than the assets they use. You are the one who put all these resources together and create something that I like. And if I think your time worth compensation, then why not?
From their updates, they no longer use RPG Maker anymore, and money are now spent on original artworks for the game.
@Luthan
I agree with you up until you call TFT jealous. I don't think she's jealous at all. I think she's just upset that these games got or almost got the monetary reward she doesn't think they deserve.
@Ghost
I don't think setting a goal at 20k and let people decide whether it's reasonable or not, can be compared to EA putting game dev studios out of business.
I'm not sure what to response to other points you've mentioned, since I think I've already addressed those in my previous post.
@Kentona
For me, I don't see a problem with that. I think the amount of time the creator spent on the game has as much or even more value than the assets they use. You are the one who put all these resources together and create something that I like. And if I think your time worth compensation, then why not?
Ghost
787
This blog article is directed at a lot of rm game designers who might make ads. It points out that Sailerus was either ridiculously misinformed of the value of his game or he was attempting to gouge, ne?
Might want to do some research next time.
Yeah, EA is free to rape game studios and put game dev studios out of business. You know what happens when you put money first? Go look at today's game industry it's abysmal. If you aren't in it to make a quality game FIRST then you're doing it wrong. That is the purpose of Indie. That mentality is the reason why a lot of shit sucks now a days, no integrity.
Might want to do some research next time.
author=Luthan
Everybody is free to do they want. If some people want 20k even if they don't need 20k then it is okay. If other people want to pay it then it is their problem. Or not if they are happy with it because they think it is a good thing to pay the money.
Yeah, EA is free to rape game studios and put game dev studios out of business. You know what happens when you put money first? Go look at today's game industry it's abysmal. If you aren't in it to make a quality game FIRST then you're doing it wrong. That is the purpose of Indie. That mentality is the reason why a lot of shit sucks now a days, no integrity.
Luthan
0
Everybody is free to do they want. If some people want 20k even if they don't need 20k then it is okay. If other people want to pay it then it is their problem. Or not if they are happy with it because they think it is a good thing to pay the money.
If you say they are not informed about better games out there...
that might be true. I know a lot of better games that don't even ask for donations and I would not pay money for the games mentioned in this blog article.
But this blog article surely won't help the people that are paying. If they are not that well informed they probably are not going to read this because they don't spend much time on rpg maker stuff(if they did they were informed and would not need this blog article).
This blog article is only whining and jealousy because nobody is paying you money. You should just shut the fuck up and make your own games. And try to make better games first before complaining about the others. Whining about others always means that you are not able to produce anything worthy.
Oblic mentioned Sailerius' review of Forever's End. And yes, I liked Forever's End. Because of the story and gameplay. But I liked Vacant Sky too. More because of the story than of the gameplay. I did not agree with Sailerius' review on Forever's End. I hated it a bit but I still liked Vacant Sky because I'm not going around saying "omg he dislikes one of my favourite games now everything he makes is shit, now I have to hate Vacant Sky". And the same is with this blog which is against him. I can't say no "omg cool I agree with everything against him because he disliked one of my favourite games". I think such blog articles are only trying to create hate. We don't need this. And we don't need reviews like the one from Sailerius' on Forever's end. Same thing.
And about story: Story can be something you would pay for if you like it. Even if the graphics are shit or it didn't need much work to make them. To make a good story it will need hours of work too and he could use that hours to work somewhere else else for money. Read about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost ... surely probably 20k is still too much if he were unemployed and you only consider this cost. Would take a lot of months where he worked full time on the game(but he probably is not working full time). But who cares. Not my money. I am not paying anything. Ha ha.
If you say they are not informed about better games out there...
that might be true. I know a lot of better games that don't even ask for donations and I would not pay money for the games mentioned in this blog article.
But this blog article surely won't help the people that are paying. If they are not that well informed they probably are not going to read this because they don't spend much time on rpg maker stuff(if they did they were informed and would not need this blog article).
This blog article is only whining and jealousy because nobody is paying you money. You should just shut the fuck up and make your own games. And try to make better games first before complaining about the others. Whining about others always means that you are not able to produce anything worthy.
Oblic mentioned Sailerius' review of Forever's End. And yes, I liked Forever's End. Because of the story and gameplay. But I liked Vacant Sky too. More because of the story than of the gameplay. I did not agree with Sailerius' review on Forever's End. I hated it a bit but I still liked Vacant Sky because I'm not going around saying "omg he dislikes one of my favourite games now everything he makes is shit, now I have to hate Vacant Sky". And the same is with this blog which is against him. I can't say no "omg cool I agree with everything against him because he disliked one of my favourite games". I think such blog articles are only trying to create hate. We don't need this. And we don't need reviews like the one from Sailerius' on Forever's end. Same thing.
And about story: Story can be something you would pay for if you like it. Even if the graphics are shit or it didn't need much work to make them. To make a good story it will need hours of work too and he could use that hours to work somewhere else else for money. Read about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost ... surely probably 20k is still too much if he were unemployed and you only consider this cost. Would take a lot of months where he worked full time on the game(but he probably is not working full time). But who cares. Not my money. I am not paying anything. Ha ha.
Ghost
787
@Hima
I'll tell you where TFT is right and wrong. He's right in saying that Kickstarter group of pledgers are just unaware, Ciel mentioned they just don't know of what's out there. Some are informed about RM and the niche communites it has and how things work. Others kind of understand but still pledge because they like an concept, or just the person / presentation of a game and advertisement. Some even like the idea of getting a chance to contribute to a game, their ideas at a price they are willing to pay.
As the people who create games and submit them to crowd source funding sites, it is imperative that your intentions isn't to gouge what is essentially an honor system, people pledge and hope for the best!
Some argue if people are willing to pay then there's a target audience. This is fundamentally wrong, yes it's true in some sense but you have understand that it is EASY to mislead people. This is what marketing does, it alters human perception, we see things in different hues of light and in a lot of cases? It clouds our judgement. Yes, it's just a fact people buy shit all the time they weren't even interested in or they couldn't tell it wasn't for them from the start.
To show the bigger picture which is the intention of some guys here or whatever is not wrong, I think it's the right thing to do.
However, I'll tell you where TFT is wrong. Passing his opinion off as fact. The other side of the fence is that Kickstarter exists to fund ideas or projects. What people do with their project or submit is there own thing.
That is the intention, if you have an idea or concept then it is NOT wrong to submit your advertisement, no matter how bad it is. Why? Because that is what the site is for to fund ideas and to fund projects. Do you notice that backers are the only one able to drop comments (on kickstarter at least)? Because your opinion doesn't matter. The only people opinion that matter are those who pledge. That is how the site works.
I personally think that games like Echoes receiving that much cash for what is essentially his FIRST game, is really bad. There is no real screening unfortunately at KS. That is just the fact of the matter.
The only thing we can do is encourage people to put some effort behind there game and do not purposely try to gouge the pockets of the average joes out there. Commercial game companies ALREADY do this. It's a disgusting act and I'm tired of the pursuit of money ruining everything I love.
With that said, if you truly wish to submit something to crowd funding sites, then ask for the amount you really need. An rtp game does NOT need 20k. If you're creating a game using free resources and need a soundtrack or some custom art, get the quotes first and establish contact with your artist and then work out a plan. Pay for your assets yourself, at least initially to show the crowd funding backers. You'll also have an idea of the value of your game is.
No one cares if you use rtp or free resources, people CARE when you use it and then ask for tons and tons of money. If you get over funded, then you should probably use the rest of the money to replace your free resources, make sense right? Point being crowd funding should not be thought of as a golden ticket, if you want money then you should willing to invest in your own ideas with either time or money to pay for initial art to show off your vision.
I'll tell you where TFT is right and wrong. He's right in saying that Kickstarter group of pledgers are just unaware, Ciel mentioned they just don't know of what's out there. Some are informed about RM and the niche communites it has and how things work. Others kind of understand but still pledge because they like an concept, or just the person / presentation of a game and advertisement. Some even like the idea of getting a chance to contribute to a game, their ideas at a price they are willing to pay.
As the people who create games and submit them to crowd source funding sites, it is imperative that your intentions isn't to gouge what is essentially an honor system, people pledge and hope for the best!
Some argue if people are willing to pay then there's a target audience. This is fundamentally wrong, yes it's true in some sense but you have understand that it is EASY to mislead people. This is what marketing does, it alters human perception, we see things in different hues of light and in a lot of cases? It clouds our judgement. Yes, it's just a fact people buy shit all the time they weren't even interested in or they couldn't tell it wasn't for them from the start.
To show the bigger picture which is the intention of some guys here or whatever is not wrong, I think it's the right thing to do.
However, I'll tell you where TFT is wrong. Passing his opinion off as fact. The other side of the fence is that Kickstarter exists to fund ideas or projects. What people do with their project or submit is there own thing.
That is the intention, if you have an idea or concept then it is NOT wrong to submit your advertisement, no matter how bad it is. Why? Because that is what the site is for to fund ideas and to fund projects. Do you notice that backers are the only one able to drop comments (on kickstarter at least)? Because your opinion doesn't matter. The only people opinion that matter are those who pledge. That is how the site works.
I personally think that games like Echoes receiving that much cash for what is essentially his FIRST game, is really bad. There is no real screening unfortunately at KS. That is just the fact of the matter.
The only thing we can do is encourage people to put some effort behind there game and do not purposely try to gouge the pockets of the average joes out there. Commercial game companies ALREADY do this. It's a disgusting act and I'm tired of the pursuit of money ruining everything I love.
With that said, if you truly wish to submit something to crowd funding sites, then ask for the amount you really need. An rtp game does NOT need 20k. If you're creating a game using free resources and need a soundtrack or some custom art, get the quotes first and establish contact with your artist and then work out a plan. Pay for your assets yourself, at least initially to show the crowd funding backers. You'll also have an idea of the value of your game is.
No one cares if you use rtp or free resources, people CARE when you use it and then ask for tons and tons of money. If you get over funded, then you should probably use the rest of the money to replace your free resources, make sense right? Point being crowd funding should not be thought of as a golden ticket, if you want money then you should willing to invest in your own ideas with either time or money to pay for initial art to show off your vision.
if people want to give me money, PM me and I will send you my paypal email.
on a more serious note, it just doesn't feel right for me to ask for donations or any sort of monetary compensation for the serious games I have made because, while I did do an awful lot of work to make the game, I use a mix of RTP, FF rips with minor edits and midi music I found out there on the internets. If I were to look for donations/Kickstarter for one of my projects, i would remake it and use either resources I made or contracted out for from the talented people here that I know. Otherwise it would just feel...I don't know...hollow.
send me money pls
on a more serious note, it just doesn't feel right for me to ask for donations or any sort of monetary compensation for the serious games I have made because, while I did do an awful lot of work to make the game, I use a mix of RTP, FF rips with minor edits and midi music I found out there on the internets. If I were to look for donations/Kickstarter for one of my projects, i would remake it and use either resources I made or contracted out for from the talented people here that I know. Otherwise it would just feel...I don't know...hollow.
hima
4237
To summarized my wall of text
- I agree that good, finished, high quality game should be monetary rewarded.
- For this to happen, creators need to help make it easy for supporter to support. Help us to help you.
- Everyone has a right to try to make money. In my opinion, this article wants to take away this right from these developers solely because
1.) They use RPGMaker.
2.) It doesn't take them 'enough' effort.
Should the article/rant focus more on unrealistic rpgmaker projects trying to scam people for money, I might have a different opinion on this.
- I agree that good, finished, high quality game should be monetary rewarded.
- For this to happen, creators need to help make it easy for supporter to support. Help us to help you.
- Everyone has a right to try to make money. In my opinion, this article wants to take away this right from these developers solely because
1.) They use RPGMaker.
2.) It doesn't take them 'enough' effort.
Should the article/rant focus more on unrealistic rpgmaker projects trying to scam people for money, I might have a different opinion on this.
