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I translate games as I don't have enough time to make them.
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Asking for donations
it just kind of bugs me seeing you guys flip out all over YDS when i get IMs from her sometimes about how she's been eating canned tuna for a week because she can't really afford anything else. that's kind of shitty homies :/
I don't think portraying people who disagree with her choice as assholes is fair either. I'm in a position to talk because I've translated her game and been promoting it to French communities. So I don't think it's fair to use this as argument.
Fun fact: I also eat canned tuna pretty often and I considering my situation I sure as hell wouldn't spend 200$ for facesets for my rpg game. That's my choice and I take responsability for it. The opposite is also true.
It's beside the point tardis. Your her friend and will naturally side with her and it's the right thing to do, but it doesn't change anything that she should ask for permission.
Besides, as far as I'm concerned it stopped being about YDS ages ago, it's about the principles of accepting donations without asking the permissions for other creators to contributed to x game (x can be whatever game here).
Asking for donations
@Ness: You're not bringing any new arguments so I think we should stop.
Alright, anyway, I'll leave it at that on my part. We'll never agree about that.
To summarize my point of view:
If you want to receive money for a game (donations or retail or whatever the fuck) you should ask permission to the authors who contributed to your game no matter what you want to use the money for.
Other people might think that the fact that she's
a)poor
b)using donations not retail
justifies not asking for permission (even though that's what she ended up doing) but I don't.
I. don't. Ok?
I'm not calling you assholes for believing that, it's your right and that's cool but I do disagree with that. I understand your position completely but I just don't agree with it.
Alright, anyway, I'll leave it at that on my part. We'll never agree about that.
To summarize my point of view:
If you want to receive money for a game (donations or retail or whatever the fuck) you should ask permission to the authors who contributed to your game no matter what you want to use the money for.
Other people might think that the fact that she's
a)poor
b)using donations not retail
justifies not asking for permission (even though that's what she ended up doing) but I don't.
I. don't. Ok?
I'm not calling you assholes for believing that, it's your right and that's cool but I do disagree with that. I understand your position completely but I just don't agree with it.
Asking for donations
Ness, correct me if I'm wrong but Konjak makes everything in the game himself, just like Daisuke Amaya for Cave Story.
He.
Made.
Everything.
Himself.
IF he did everything himself, then he doesn't have to ask for anyone's permisson does he? How is that remotely similar with what we're discussing here 0____o'?
So there's nothing wrong with *him* accepting donations. It's just so different.
I was using graphics for my fictional example, sorry I wasn't clear here.
The principle remains that you need to ask permissions for the people who worked on the script or on the music or whatever. That is the point.
Money for directly selling or money from donation is still money dude.
Are you saying that it's totally fine if she (hypothetically & rhetorically) made 1500$ through donations but it's wrong if she made 20$ by selling the game as retail? How does that make sense? She'd still make money and so should ask the author's permission.
This is what she ended up doing herself, what's the problem, could you tell me?
He.
Made.
Everything.
Himself.
IF he did everything himself, then he doesn't have to ask for anyone's permisson does he? How is that remotely similar with what we're discussing here 0____o'?
So there's nothing wrong with *him* accepting donations. It's just so different.
First Seed Material Doesn't care.period. people made off money from their stuff even in flash communities without paying them. Second, YDS has paid booble to do her work, so what's the issue here? Third, YDS is being supported by a friend to help on paying some people to do some massive sprite work. FOURTH, these people helping YDS knows she was planning to ask for donations but they never bothered to ask for some share, this includes ocean etc. FIFTH, YDS is NOT making a commercial game so she's not breaking any terms of agreement from the script makers.
I was using graphics for my fictional example, sorry I wasn't clear here.
The principle remains that you need to ask permissions for the people who worked on the script or on the music or whatever. That is the point.
Money for directly selling or money from donation is still money dude.
Are you saying that it's totally fine if she (hypothetically & rhetorically) made 1500$ through donations but it's wrong if she made 20$ by selling the game as retail? How does that make sense? She'd still make money and so should ask the author's permission.
This is what she ended up doing herself, what's the problem, could you tell me?
Asking for donations
So your argument is once again that you are imagining other peoples' feelingsAnd you are doing the same thing my friend. It's impossible to know for a fact how every person would react about to this unless we did some kind of extended survey.
You can't blame me for saying that people do mind because I know some people who just don't want to have their art in any other game than their own. That's a fact, deal with it.
You would be surprised at how many people doesn't mind.Wrong. I wouldn't be, I'm sure a lot of people don't mind. I'm also sure some people mind as well.
What's so wrong about asking for permission, can you explain that to me rationally?
It's called passion. Just wanting it to share to the world.Well then no donations and be passionate all the way.
Ness, if you decide to spend 100$ for me to translate your game, it's your decision. Your decision. Nobody is forcing you. It doesn't justify using other people's resources without their permission. Damn, what's to disagree about that -____-'.
It seems kind of silly for someone who is making a freeware game to ask for donations from the community. I understand she has spent some of her own pocket money to pay for booble's and others hard work, which is great. But I mean, c'mon. We all need money. We all have priorities. Asking for money just seems kind of ridiculous. It makes me think, "Hey, I'm making this game for all of you. But I'd also like something in return." I understand no one is in anyway obligated to make donations, but...I don't know. I mean, if you need money that badly for food and living, then you probably shouldn't be spending it on making this game. Just saying.
HOLY SHIT THANK YOU GOD! I thought I was going nuts.
Asking for donations
If I volunteered my time to make 20 battlers for someone I was probably not expecting any compensation anyway.
That's not what I said.
If you made certain battlers for a certain project and ended up finding out that someone is making 500$ thanks to your battlers (they were the only enemies in the game) to get back the money they invested in your game, would you be fine with it? You might be, it's possible. I can imagine that a lot of people wouldn't be however.
Asking for donations
That or she probably needs more money so she can commission people like for the art etc. But I highly doubt it since she barely has any food other than tuna =v=)
That doesn't justify anything Ness.
If I don't have enough money to eat, then I shouldn't hire an artist for a free RPG Maker game. It's a matter of setting priorities.
If I use some of your art in my game and make donations because I'm poor and end up making money because your art is awesome (which it is), it doesn't justify anything. If I get the money back I invested in making the game, it still doesn't justify using your art without your permission, the end doesn't justify the mean.
This is what I believe. If you believe that people should be allowed to use other people's resources to get back the money they willingly invested in a free rpg maker game, that's your right. To me, it doesn't matter for what purpose you're accepting donation for, you still need to ask for permission.
Asking for donations
Creation, I just wanna shout out to you like the rest that there is nothing wrong with asking for donations, because donations are COMPLETELY OPTIONAL.
Feeling like the movie 300 here ^___^'.
I disagree with you and I'll tell you why. Let's use a fictional example to illustrate my point.
eplipswich, you make 20 battlers. I make a game and I use your battlers for my game. Your battlers are great looking and add to the quality of my game.
I accept donations. Imagine, for some reason, that I spent 100$ on some other artist to draw art for my game. I want to accept donations to make up for that amount of money.
Imagine if I had drawn the battlers and they looked like crap as opposed to yours which look great. Some people might think: ''Shit, those battlers look like crap, enough of this'' just like they might think a script is bad and buggy or any other aspect which constitutes the game.
For whatever contribution you made to my game, the game becomes better than it was and I receive more donations. In other words, you are partly responsible for me getting donations.
Do you see my point here? It doesn't matter that donations are optional, there is still money coming in partly thanks to you.
Let's say I get 200$ from donations. Why not give you some of that because you helped make my game a success and indirectly get more donations? I could give you 100$ (the amount if not relevant here, it depends how much you used from a certain author) and keep 100$ for myself. Not only do I make up for the money I invested but I also end up rewarding people who contributed to my game.
Now, tell me, eplipswich, what is it that you disagree with that?
Asking for donations
I think she feels guilty asking for money from the community in general.I thought about that but as she said:
I actually felt horrible and guilty reading your postWhich makes me think (perhaps mistakenly) that it's not the case.
No. I did not use any commercial resources in my game. All of the materials I used are free. The only scripts that I've used in the game are Yanfly's, ModernAlgebra, GreatRedSpirit (who made them for me), and Zeriab (the only person who I am unsure about the script's status for usage, and who I PMed after this fiasco).
Then I wasn't completely off track and it was worth mentioning it to you (and I'm relieved to read that, would've felt guilty as heck otherwise).
as far as I know, everything I am using is public domain besides one facking caterpillar script.I would make sure if I were you but it's your call. As stupid as this caterpillar script is, some people might raise hell about it (I'm not saying I agree with this kind of reaction, I'm just saying it might happen). Better safe than sorry.
It's too bad you're seeing this as something negative (fiasco), I don't. I do think it was worth mentioning if only for you to contact the author of that script and prevent you from having any trouble in the future with a scripter who' pissed because he did not give you his permission. Anyways, you'll probably hold my intervention against me but I take full responsability over what I've said.
As for me, I'll take time to ask questions next time before jumping to conclusions (although I wasn't completely wrong in my assumption!^___^')
P.S.: I would check with Modern however. I've talked to him in private before and he did not *seem* (seem) too keen about the whole money business.
P.P.S.: I'm going to go ahead and lock this, I think that's enough drama and we've covered the question. Let me know if you want to add something else worth mentioning and I'll unlock the thread.
P.P.P.S.: I'll leave this open after all.
Asking for donations
Which is why I asked. What is she using that people have specifically said you are not allowed to accept money for? Do you know? or are you just making baseless accusations?To be honest, I don't know for a fact and I should've have asked in greater detail before making assumptions. I will gladly apologize if I did indeed turn out to be wrong.I've never once heard of anyone writing all of their scripts and making all of their art by themselves. Not once, so I assumed that YDS was no different and I can be criticized on that. She might be using scripts/free graphics which allow her to accept money for her game however in which case I am indeed mistaken.
What I first asked YDS was this:
About receiving donation however, are you sure? I know a lot of people who make tilesets or who write scripts mention very clearly that it is for non-commercial only.If she did indeed get the permission to accept donations for all the scripts she's using and the art she's using, why not tell me right here and then:
Now, you're not selling the game but you'd still make money by using other people's resources/scripts if some people make donations.
''No problem Creation, I've contacted the authors and they're totally fine with it'' End of discussion.
I also cannot understand why she would even think about feeling guilty if she did check that she could use whatever she's using for making her game. What's to be guilty about?
At the end of the day, it has nothing to do with YDS as a person. None. at. all. I thought I should hold my tongue because I do appreciate her but on the other hand it seemed wrong so I said something. I would have had the exact same reaction for anyone else.
What I am against is receiving money for a game without first making sure the creators of what is used in the game are in agreement. I think that's fair.
PS: Just saw your links, thank you.
Asking for donations
Alright, anyway, let's leave it at that. You are certain about your assumptions (Nightblade) so there's no point really. I have strong suspicions your objective is not to debate anyway.
You know, you don't need to be directly targeted about certain events to be against it... I don't know how much sprites you've done in your life Nightblade, how many scripts you've put together, how many battlers you've drawn. I guess you underestimate the amount of work it involves and thus assume that I'm overreacting when I think artists/programmers should be consulted before making money by using part of their creations. Some artist have a tight budget like YDS (or worse) so it only make sense they would also get their share of what is earned.
@ankylo:
It's not only about the art, it's also about the scripts.
Anyways, I don't think YDS situation is such a big deal in the sense that I doubt she'd end up making thousands from donations as they seldom/rarely bring any money.
Just for the record though, from what I've read about the REFMAP term of use:
It might be a bad translation but if it's shareware then:
Where did you read that games use REFMAP to generate income? I'm not saying you're wrong but I'd like to find out, do you have a link?
You know, you don't need to be directly targeted about certain events to be against it... I don't know how much sprites you've done in your life Nightblade, how many scripts you've put together, how many battlers you've drawn. I guess you underestimate the amount of work it involves and thus assume that I'm overreacting when I think artists/programmers should be consulted before making money by using part of their creations. Some artist have a tight budget like YDS (or worse) so it only make sense they would also get their share of what is earned.
@ankylo:
It's not only about the art, it's also about the scripts.
Anyways, I don't think YDS situation is such a big deal in the sense that I doubt she'd end up making thousands from donations as they seldom/rarely bring any money.
Just for the record though, from what I've read about the REFMAP term of use:
All of our resources are free, without regard to your game is a shareware or a free-ware.
It might be a bad translation but if it's shareware then:
The term shareware (also known as trialware or demoware) refers to proprietary software that is provided to users without payment on a trial basis and is often limited by any combination of functionality, availability or convenience.
The rationale behind shareware is to give buyers the opportunity to use the program and judge its usefulness before purchasing a license for the full version of the software.
Where did you read that games use REFMAP to generate income? I'm not saying you're wrong but I'd like to find out, do you have a link?
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