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Stat Differentiation

author=Shadowtext link=topic=1329.msg20165#msg20165 date=1213563679
For one thing, speedsters can use their turn for more than just attacking--they can also use items or abilities. It costs the damage-dealer a lot more to give up a turn than a speedster, because a speedster's only going to sacrifice a fraction of the damage-dealer's damage output to take an action other than attacking. You also get to throw accuracy and critical hits into the equation: more attacks means more chance to score a critical hit, or against an enemy who's really good at evading attacks, it means an extra chance to hit. Enemies with low HP but huge evasion are much better attacked by speedsters than damage-dealers.

Yeah, and that's what I meant about the issue of speed being more intricate than HP/Def. I wouldn't dream of removing a speed stat from a game entirely, but when you have a huge powerhouse with 80 attack and 10 speed (let's say that's 8 dam/s) and you get the option of upgrading attack by 20 or speed by 20, speed is better. (100 attack 10 speed is 10 DPS and 80 attack 30 spd is 24 dps). I guess what's I'm trying to say here is that when you combine the traditional speed yields more attacks setup with a choice of statistic gain, it is always better (assuming the stats are actually balanced properly) to approach middle ground. And if they aren't balanced properly, then it's better to approach whatever ratio they're balanced at, which WILL be constant.

So in effect, the ideal strategy is to approach middle ground with all your characters, which completely screws over character depth. If I choose to focus entirely on one stat, like attack, or speed, my character shouldn't be inherently weaker than a character who went for a balance between attack and speed just by the definition of the statistics. Why bother having a straight rogue or a straight warrior when you can hybridize and minimize the disadvantages of both sides? I suppose my point is that the speed = # of attacks formula may be flawed in itself, and that speed should be used for other things (like you mentioned; accuracy, criticals, and evasion). Or at the very least throw in some square roots on the # of attacks so that leveling up attack actually DOES give you more DPS than leveling speed, and then use speed for other things as well.


author=harmonic link=topic=1329.msg20168#msg20168 date=1213564889
Defense is static in both my games. It is only changed (and it is changed a lot) by armor. It represents nothing but how much physical force is mitigated by armor.

This is effectively the same thing, and it's just a matter of the semantics of whether a point in defense is actually the toughness of your "hide" or if a point in defense is actually a more complicated idea of how well you are at guarding and parrying (which reduces the damage you take on average even though you don't physically see the guards and parries). And is HP your willpower or the physical integrity of your flesh? I guess in my ideal battle system, defense would not only reduce the damage you take but also increase the actual chance of "Guard!" or "Parry!" appearing on-screen (which would also be modified by your equipment). So defense and speed-oriented characters operate basically the same way, with the difference being that speed-based characters have much more randomness in when and how they die. And everyone has 100 HP, but the speed character is probably going to take all 100 if he gets hit, while the defense character will only take maybe 20 when she does.

The only reason games can get away with having rogue-types and warrior-types, and having HP AND Def stats and it being okay, is because they don't offer a choice of a statistics at all, and you just gain stats on level according to your character class, and that's that.

Also, random thought: a Golden Sun-type equipment system where equipment actually offers percentage increases instead of rote increases might help to mitigate the middle-ground concept, because if you have +80% attack, putting 10 points into speed will probably be a bad idea because you can get 18 points if you just put it into attack instead.

Stat Differentiation

Okay, this is something that's plagued me for awhile now, but HP and Defense are essentially the same stat. Yes, there are plenty of subtle differences, but when it comes right down to it, gaining a point in HP and gaining a point in Def serve the exact same purpose: you live longer before you die.

Now, okay, you might say something like "What about a low HP, high Def monster?" Well, how is it any different from a high HP, low Def monster? It still takes just as long to kill, and what its actual health number is doesn't matter. You might also say that HP is for both physical and magical resistance, and Def is only physical. But that's just complicating the issue. Because you're going to have some sort of magic resistance stat, too, and then why give a few points in HP rather than just one point in Def and Res? Or you might say that low HP, high Def benefits more from heal spells, but that's a really weak argument.

Quite frankly, what it comes down to is that HP is the weaker stat, and it's much better to have high Def/Res and low HP than it is to have high HP and low Def/Res. All this depends on balance, of course (it would be really easy to make HP worth more than Def/Res, just edit the formulas).

The standard solution is to simply make HP AND Def/Res increase every level and be done with it. Your tanks get high HP and high Def, your mages get low HP and low Def, and you'll have like a berserker with high HP and low Def (and honestly that just equates to medium HP, medium Def). So why bother with HP at all?

I can only come up with a few reasons:

One, in collection-based games where leveling up isn't as important as finding cool stuff, HP and Def can have different methods of going up, which adds a cool feeling to the game and gives you more to collect. Like you collect HP stones to get HP and get Def when you level up, or get HP on levels but have to find new armor for Def.

Two, Fire Emblem. FE has the lovely weapon triangle which is actually pretty deeply tied to stats. Swords are weak, fast, and high critical, which works perfectly against the high HP, low Def axes; they can deal a lot of damage since they don't have to deal with enemy Def (and critical x3 damage is very effective). Whereas axes are high attack power, low hit rate, which works great against the defensive spear units, since their attack power can overcome the high defense and their low hit rates don't matter because the spears are just that slow. And then spears are awesome against swords because swords can't break their defense, and swords don't have enough HP to deal with getting hit by a spear. The point here is that axes get HP and spears get Def, and because of the Att - Def damage system, they work fundamentally differently.

Three, Att - Def damage systems. This ties into the above, but if you think of a game like Paper Mario, a point in Def is pretty much an entirely different animal from a point in HP. But in Paper Mario, you never actually leveled up Defense directly, which I guess goes back to the first point.


I've toyed with the idea of just making HP constant throughout the game (Max HP = 100), and only using a Def stat. Is there any good reason not to do this?

And another point, when speed's primary purpose is to determine how often you can attack, how is it any different from Att or Mag? I mean, yeah, having them both in good balance will equate to maximum damage, but why should a game designer force the player to work with that? When they want to deal more damage, they're going to put points in whatever they think will help them do that best. Why give them two options that lead to the same result? I guess this is a more intricate issue, because light, fast characters feel like they play differently from huge, clunky powerhouses. Honestly, though, it's all the same.

Just wondering if anyone else has thought about this.

High Power=Low Tier?

Am I the only one who's considered having a female tank character?

Anyway, with the AoO stuff and all these skills, this is leaning towards actually making battles strategic! I don't think I've ever played a game where trying to be strategic was as effective as bashing the hell out of everything.

Also, from a technical game design perspective, I hate navigating menus. So please please if ever possible include a hotkey option for battles so that I can set two or three specific actions to keys. That way I can still jam on the key to get through the battle, AND I can actually set up a strategy while doing so. It's not that I mind how long the battle lasts, it's just that I hate menus. With hotkeys, it's the best of both worlds.

Music Requests!

Wow, this is perfect for like an "Intro to the City" shot, where it pans to various parts of the city showing it off. Very cinematic. It might be a little too eclectic for background music, but that's okay because it rocks.

I've never been able to make good Arabian-type music and I think I'll be able to get a lot of ideas out of this. Thank you!

Firefox 3 - Download Day Guinness World Record attempt [June 17][UPDATE: 8.2 million]

I'll pledge to this.

Also, isn't June 17 the release date of the Spore scam Creature Editor?

Rate the above person's avatar.

There's no rating system, so I'm going to use something arbitrary.

I really like the dark, mobster vibe so... 63 out of 71

Let's Play! Final Fantasy IV Edition! ALSO A GENERAL FINAL FANTASY DISCUSSION TOPIC

I was about to say "oh come on, use Google first" like a jackass but then I did it myself and found a very confusing post that seems to be about a psychological condition where a person believes they are capable of things far beyond their abilities. And somehow relates to Y2K.

Anyway. I'm assuming Magus Syndrome is the situation where an NPC who was previously your enemy and very powerful joins your team, and ends up with a completely different (and much weaker) set of stats and abilities. In this instance, Rydia can cause enormous earthquakes... until she joins your team. Now she summons chocobos.

Let's Play! Final Fantasy IV Edition! ALSO A GENERAL FINAL FANTASY DISCUSSION TOPIC

Man I love stuff like this. It's a lot better than having to watch a speedrun to find out what happens in a game I'll never be able to play. I got far enough in to FFIV that I want to find out what happens, but not really all that far, so I'm looking forward to watching you go through the game.

Also, why is there a tent in the middle of a waterfall...?

High Power=Low Tier?

Here's a random thought: In practice, is there any way to make a Tank class actually absorb most of the damage without explicitly forcing it (like "Oh you can't attack the back lines if the Tank's alive" or "Enemies have a higher probability of attacking the Tank!" )? I guess it would probably be harder to pull off in a traditional RPG setup than say an active battle or grid-based strategic battle system. Maybe like a skill where he has a chance of guarding an enemy attack. Although I guess that would sort of be forcing it too.. maybe everything in a traditional battle system is forced by default. A skill that actually just redirects 50% of the damage to everyone else onto the Tank? I don't know, just a thought.

MMO

I honestly think there needs to be some more activity in the indie MMO community. Maybe I'm just clueless because I'm turned off by bad 3d graphics (3 > 2, but people need to learn that GOOD 2D > BAD 3D) and I don't pay for anything, thus don't try any of the games out there, but I think there's a lot of MMO experimentation possible, where people try to work on alternatives to the ZOMG GRIND, someone actually addresses the issue of Player-Run Economy = FAIL, and actually making interesting storylines in a multiplayer world.

Quick elaboration, 1) grinding is actually entertaining because you're leveling up and the goal is to get higher than everyone else. But when you get to the point where you can grind for an hour and not level up (Yes, Runescape level 60-something, I'm looking at YOU) you really are just wasting your life. We need more frequent level ups, and more skill variety. 2) Player-run economies suck because crafting happens instantly. Sure there might be only one guy at level 80, but once he's there he can make a Legendary Blade of Win in about 15 seconds, and floods the market for his own profit. If the Legendary Blade of Win took 3 hours to make AND level 80, it would actually sell for what it's worth. 3) Story in an MMO? There's usually backstory to the world and such (it's usually pretty cliche too), but not much of anything else.