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The Merchant's Tale
[RMMV] Help with stat/formula balance!
author=LockeZ
Try this damage formula for normal attacks:
Math.pow(a.atk + 5, 1.5) / Math.pow(b.def + 5, 0.8) + 3
This! This really, really, REALLY helps!
I've tried it and it does work prfectly for normal attacks and some abilities, with the added base damage and sometimes multiplying the whole thing.
I've noticed it also works really well on composite (?) formulas, such as for the Scythe's ability that goes like
a.gainHp(2 + a.mdf); 0.6 * (Math.pow(a.atk + a.mat + 12, 1.5) / Math.pow(b.def + 5, 0.8) + 2)
(correct me if I'm wrong but this, so far, seems to be working as intended. I've tested most abilities with varying amounts of stats going upwards to 100ish attack and the damage growths seem to be stable)
Thank you so much!
author=LockeZ
With this kind of formula you probably want your player and enemy stats to grow sort of like this:
This is possibly the best kind of guideline for balancing I've ever came across, you can be sure I'll follow this very closely. You should make it a guide or something, it's ABSURDLY helpful!
I had no idea how to make stuff stronger throught the game and how much should everything increase, but this made it so much easier. Thank you again.
Just one little thing
author=LockeZ
Buffs and debuffs should be multipliers for stats, not additions. For example, a moderate attack power buff might give 25% bonus attack power. A moderate defense buff might give 50% bonus defense.
Doesn't increasing attack by 25% only increase the final damage by far less than 25%? I'm not really good at math here so correct me if I'm wrong, it feels like a small increase.
PS: You're the best.
[RMMV] Help with stat/formula balance!
author=LockeZ
1) If you just want a hard floor on damage you can build a conditional branch into the damage formula. If you're using the damage formula boxes on the skill page, the syntax x?y:z will work like a conditional branch meaning "if x, then y, otherwise z." So for example if you want the damage formula a.atk * 10 / b.def, but with a minimum of 50 damage, you could type a.atk*10/b.def > 50 ? a.atk*10/b.def : 50 to get that result.
However this will mean that at low attack stat values or high defense stat values, buffs and debuffs and new equipment will have absolutely no effect whatsoever, which means that your game is lying to the player in many situations. You should not really do this. It's bad design. I'm only listing it because it most closely matches what you asked.
Unfortunately we're not using divisive damage formula because of low numbers, but we kinda wanted to.
We actually do use conditional damage of this sort of thing for specific moves that target status effects or some other things but in a general sense it feels too static indeed.
author=LockeZ
2) If you just add +50 to the end of your damage formula then everything will do 50 more damage. This is a better method with fewer side-effects. If you do this, you probably shouldn't make this number very high, because it makes stats worth less at the beginning of the game. The higher it is, the less stats are worth at the beginning of the game, and the more they're worth later. This makes the player's first few upgrades and level ups feel kinda lame, and also makes grinding become more and more effective the more you do it (which is typically the opposite of how you want grinding to work).
You can directly undo this side-effect by applying an exponent between 0 and 1 to the attack and defense stats in the damage formula: for example by replacing a.atk and b.def in the damage formula with a.atk^0.9 and b.def^0.9. This will cause stats to have slightly dimininishing returns, which is more in line with how most games work. A low enough exponent like 0.5 will also sharply reduce the effectiveness of grinding extra levels.
It's pretty cool to have a set precise number that will be in the formula disconsidering stats altogether. It does exactly what I wanted, never thought of that. Do you think it could work together with base damage, or if it's best to not have a base damage at all? Or if it's better to have something like: ((10+a.atk)-b.def)+5?
However, if so, this would cripple defensive buffs way too much and make offensive ones less effective.
Using atk^0.9 or another number, would it be possible to have a low stat divisible formula in which buffs and debuffs don't completely break the game? And if so how much should a buff or defuff increase or decrease? We're using 50% of the stats. Or would exponents just give the same results? For example a.atk^0.9 - b.def^0.8 or something? We're really bad at math here, sorry.
author=LockeZ
If the strongest enemy's defense is 10x as high as a level 1 player's attack power, and a max level player's defense is 10x as high as the weakest enemy's attack power, then multiplying the attacker's attack power by any number higher than 10 will ensure that the player always does damage. 10x probably isn't the right number for your game, but some number is right - you can compare last-dungeon defense to first-dungeon attack power and figure out how big a number you need to multiply the damage by. However, if your game is long and the player and enemies' stats grow by a lot by the end of the game, this method will be impossible, because the multiplier will be so high that you'll need to give players and enemies a hundred thousand HP to survive attacks.
---
About how high are your players' and enemies' HP at the beginning of the game and at the end of the game? Based on that info I think I can probably give you a pretty reasonable damage formula based on what you've said you're doing and what you've said you want to be doing.
>> At the beginning of the game, the first character's relevant stats are:
30 HP
5 ATK (initial weapon increases it to 12)
1 DEF (first equipment increases it to 3)
First enemy is
22 HP
5 ATK
2 DEF
We're 100% unsure how the last levels should look like, but I don't want them to go way too high, something like 500 HP at the last dungeon should be the highest I guess? But it's totally open right now. Since we're not using the stat growth curves from RPG maker to go with our own stat increasing items throught the game, this kind of thought becomes rather blurry.
[RMMV] Help with stat/formula balance!
Sorry for the late reply! Got busy testing every suggestion in this topic!
Yes! Players will have a lot of choices in this. Different answers for quest dialogue may reward them with different stats and so on. Stat-raising items are found frequently as well.
Infact we would love if skills could be replaced with stronger/more interesting versions of themselves in a way that players can only equip a set number of skills, but so far we haven't found a way to do so (any suggestions?)
No no, they don't all go up! Actually, quest rewards are often items which can be used to increase characters stats manually. If the player choses to do a quest in one way they might receive a Dextery+ item while doing the quest differently awards a Strength+ item.
Considering that we're using small numbers, a +1 Magick does a lot.
We tested this one extensively and indeed, for small numbers, it's not ideal, although I really wanted to go on with this formula.
The thing is, the first enemy was taking upwards to 15 damage from normal attacks at 2 defense while the second enemy was taking about 6~7 damage at just 3 defense. A single defense buff made them ridiculously tanky and impossible to deal with.
This kind of formula seems easier to plan, however it definitely doesn't work unless numbers are larger. A shame because this :
This was almost exactly what I wanted, though. Is there a way to set a minimum damage everything can do or something?
Players and enemies share some skills, which are gained from cards dropped by enemies. I guess this is the most complicated part of balancing since the easiest way would be to set the enemy skill to just deal a 25 - b.def or something and set individual skills for each enemy.
...I never thought about it that way. Indeed it puts everything in perspective.
But what if 60 strength is a stat you only get to at the end of the game? Every point would mean a lot less, but elemental buffs and debuffs would mean a lot more.
This would perhaps make it easier to balance, but less engaging to players, perhaps?
Right now we're doing very small base damage with full scalling for each skill, considering increasing that base damage with skills learned at later levels and such and perhaps increasing scalling multiplicatively, if the points are meaning less and less results. We don't want the 'if I put enough points on it, it may make a difference one day' mindset many RPGs (specially ARPGs such as Diablo) go for. We want each point to remain useful through the whole game.
author=RyaReisender
On the other hand, does the player even have a choice on what stat to increase?
Yes! Players will have a lot of choices in this. Different answers for quest dialogue may reward them with different stats and so on. Stat-raising items are found frequently as well.
author=RyaReisender
Putting skill damage formulas is more a matter of how you want your skills to be like. Should they always be useful from start to finish? Should they get gradually less useful until they are replaced by a stronger version of the spell?
Infact we would love if skills could be replaced with stronger/more interesting versions of themselves in a way that players can only equip a set number of skills, but so far we haven't found a way to do so (any suggestions?)
author=Marrend
Well, if stats only go up by completing quests, you might consider making certain quests improve certain stats as a method for players to tailor their characters. If they all go up, that's probably fine too.
No no, they don't all go up! Actually, quest rewards are often items which can be used to increase characters stats manually. If the player choses to do a quest in one way they might receive a Dextery+ item while doing the quest differently awards a Strength+ item.
author=Marrend
I think the question in regards to game-balance becomes how much stats go up, and exactly how many of these quests are mandatory.
Considering that we're using small numbers, a +1 Magick does a lot.
author=LockeZ
Divisive defense is when the final damage is divided by some number based on the target's defense. For example, (a.atk * 10 / b.def) is a simple and common divisive damage formula.
We tested this one extensively and indeed, for small numbers, it's not ideal, although I really wanted to go on with this formula.
The thing is, the first enemy was taking upwards to 15 damage from normal attacks at 2 defense while the second enemy was taking about 6~7 damage at just 3 defense. A single defense buff made them ridiculously tanky and impossible to deal with.
This kind of formula seems easier to plan, however it definitely doesn't work unless numbers are larger. A shame because this :
author=LockeZis something undesirable, I wanted that the least they could do was 1, but oh well.
The main difference between these two types of formulas is whether having high enough defense can cause an attacker to do 0 damage.
author=LockeZ
In a game where most of the player's survival comes from healing, or where characters have similar defense to each-other, you are more likely to want a divisive damage formula, so that the player never reaches the point where they stop taking damage and stop needing to heal. This type of system is excellent for games where party members are all about as strong as each-other. It's mandatory for any system where the player has a single "tank" character, since you want to ensure that the tank always takes damage.
This was almost exactly what I wanted, though. Is there a way to set a minimum damage everything can do or something?
author=LockeZ
In some games you may want player skills and enemy skills to use two different damage formulas.
Players and enemies share some skills, which are gained from cards dropped by enemies. I guess this is the most complicated part of balancing since the easiest way would be to set the enemy skill to just deal a 25 - b.def or something and set individual skills for each enemy.
author=Crystalgate
A skill with 60 base damage doubles in power when your strength is just 60, but only increases the power by 20% when your strength is 500.
...I never thought about it that way. Indeed it puts everything in perspective.
But what if 60 strength is a stat you only get to at the end of the game? Every point would mean a lot less, but elemental buffs and debuffs would mean a lot more.
This would perhaps make it easier to balance, but less engaging to players, perhaps?
Right now we're doing very small base damage with full scalling for each skill, considering increasing that base damage with skills learned at later levels and such and perhaps increasing scalling multiplicatively, if the points are meaning less and less results. We don't want the 'if I put enough points on it, it may make a difference one day' mindset many RPGs (specially ARPGs such as Diablo) go for. We want each point to remain useful through the whole game.
[RMMV] Help with stat/formula balance!
So, I'm now working in the formulas for my game, Dreameerie. The thing we have right now is that characters don't increase in stats passively by level up, instead we give stats through quest completion (choices may affect which stats are gained), consumables scattered around dungeons and through upgrades on equipment.
In combat, the stats we use beyond Mana and HP are:
-Strength -> affects ALL basic attacks and Red abilities*
-Dexterity -> affects all Green abilities in addition to crit and dodge chance.
-Magick -> affects all Blue abilities (we'll add some more things here in the future)
-Physique -> reduces all damage.
-Recovery -> affects heals, lifesteal and such.
-Speed -> affects turn order and escape chance.
(RED, GREEN and BLUE abilities are those of 6 elemental properties which are used by all damaging abilities and weapon attacks. Each main stat is tied with two of those elements.)
However, we're a little worried about how to balance this out. So far our damage formulas are simple a.atk - b.def kind of stuff (we're still balancing the first dungeon) and we were considering perhaps using a different system. Something in which every ability has a base damage component which is only increased through stats, such as (60 + (a.mat * 0.75)) - b.def.
What do? Would using base damage for stuff easier to balance? What would you consider the best way to balance combat for the whole game?
Also, any other games which use a similar stat system and succeeded? I don't really know any.
In combat, the stats we use beyond Mana and HP are:
-Strength -> affects ALL basic attacks and Red abilities*
-Dexterity -> affects all Green abilities in addition to crit and dodge chance.
-Magick -> affects all Blue abilities (we'll add some more things here in the future)
-Physique -> reduces all damage.
-Recovery -> affects heals, lifesteal and such.
-Speed -> affects turn order and escape chance.
(RED, GREEN and BLUE abilities are those of 6 elemental properties which are used by all damaging abilities and weapon attacks. Each main stat is tied with two of those elements.)
However, we're a little worried about how to balance this out. So far our damage formulas are simple a.atk - b.def kind of stuff (we're still balancing the first dungeon) and we were considering perhaps using a different system. Something in which every ability has a base damage component which is only increased through stats, such as (60 + (a.mat * 0.75)) - b.def.
What do? Would using base damage for stuff easier to balance? What would you consider the best way to balance combat for the whole game?
Also, any other games which use a similar stat system and succeeded? I don't really know any.
[RMMV] Random encounter with foe appearing on screen!
author=Liberty
You don't even need to do that, Kory.
Have the enemies in the database all in a group of the ones you want to randomise in an area, then make a Variable for picking a random monster group. Set it to random between the numbers of the group that you want a monster picked from. Then in Battle Conditions use the 'by Variable' choice to point to that Variable.
Very basically, in this example, monsters from the Forest groups are picked at random by the variable each time you run into an encounter and fought. The switch at the end turns on the "Not Alive" page of the battle (when you've killed the monster) and you can then turn them all off when you leave the area so that the monsters respawn.
It works in 2k/3, Ace and MV, too.
This is genius! Works perfectly and is far less of a hassle to set up, just need to organize my troops as well as the ones in your picture.
Thank you all for the help, really appreciate it!
[RMMV] Random encounter with foe appearing on screen!
author=Liberty
Yeah, that's easy enough. I've done it before (with butterflies, but still, same idea). It works out well as long as you communicate to your player what each colour means and so forth.
Do you have any idea on how to do it, though? We're struggling a little xD (we only know how to manage plugins, there's a way of doing it with eventing or such?)
[RMMV] Random encounter with foe appearing on screen!
author=RyaReisender
As Liberty said, it works perfectly fine like that and was done before many time (in fact I think there are more RMN games that use a single sprite for all monsters than there are games that have a separate sprite depending on monster you encounter).
If you asked me personally, I'd say that the perfect implementation of non-random encounter I'm seen so far is in SaGaFrontier. In that game monsters are categorizes into the races Beast, Plant, Reptile, Insect, Bird, Slime, Undead, Human and Mec and each race has its own sprite. So there's not one sprite for each monster but only one for all monsters of a race. Also each race has its own out-of-battle movement pattern you need to learn to be able to successfully dodge it. The encounters inside the battles are still random just like you planned for you game with the exception that at least one monster is of the race that fits to the sprite touched.
That's a rather interesting way of doing random battles, but we were thinking of categorizing enemies with different cloud colors depending on their difficulty, rather than enemy type.
For example: if you find a blue cloud, it should call a random encounter from a set of 'easier' troops while a red one calls the 'harder' troops, but I can only find a way to keep this random if they're region-based.
[RMMV] Random encounter with foe appearing on screen!
@Liberty
Stats instead are gained by consuming certain items (gained by means of quests, finding them in dungeons, giving items received through exploration to NPCs). You may also increase your characters' stats by "sacrificing" little nightmares at Shrines, which are also collected in many places, specially through killing enemies.
@kory_toombs
It works. It's been done before. The only thing to keep in mind is the amount of enemies scattered around, where they're placed and how fast they move. I'd recommend doing something like blocking off important treasure routes with a cloud and having a few wander around (some towards hero at a slower/slow pace, some just random movement) and maybe a few that will chase you if you get too close.Yea, enemies' movement will consider their locations at all times, either moving randomly, standing still in one place, approaching only at a certain distance, spawning when certain events happen (such as opening chests and doors), or just moving in circles.
Also keep in mind that with less enemies on the map, the amount of EXP/Gold will need to be upped so that your players can still progress with learning skills and gaining levels (if they're a thing in your game, of course).Well, EXP is rather tricky in our game. We don't have levels affecting stats at all. Each level will give the player an ability (called Lineage skills, each very specific for each character) while other 'generic' abilities are learned by equipping cards onto weapons and armor.
Stats instead are gained by consuming certain items (gained by means of quests, finding them in dungeons, giving items received through exploration to NPCs). You may also increase your characters' stats by "sacrificing" little nightmares at Shrines, which are also collected in many places, specially through killing enemies.
Always allow the player to be able to dodge a fair amount of your battles (if they want to grind they can come back to them) when doing on-map enemies, otherwise it feels too much like an excess of battles.About dodging enemies, we want to allow the player to do that but not always, enemies will sometimes just block passages and patrol around damaging floors.
Also, keep in mind that you should think about whether the enemies can respawn (after leaving the map/area/time limit) and adjust based on that. For example, if they respawn after a time limit, having a lot less on the maps is fine. If there's a set amount in the whole game, make sure that they give enough EXP to get your player to where they need to be in levels and such.We're planning to only allow respawning of enemies through exiting/entering rooms, this indeed might apply.
Another neat idea is the one taken from Earthbound where if you're a certain level enemies instantly die on touch and just give you the gold/EXP they would have given you. This is usually when you're a few levels higher than the enemy and they don't give much of either and can't really do much damage to you/be a challenge. It makes the game feel a bit more like it's rewarding you for having fought the enemies earlier and gotten up those levels.Since levels won't play direct part into characters strength (only making them more versatile from abilities learned), this wouldn't really work in our game.
@kory_toombs
It is very possible.Oh, that's a good idea! I'll check it later and if I have any doubts, I'll contact you! ;)
If you want to know how to do it you can have a look at my game which is not encrypted. (Though you'll need to adapt it to a non tactics game, the variable system is still the same. ie. when you touch an enemy you will encounter a random troop found in that area.)
https://www.rpgmaker.net/games/8483/
Edit:
I'm also an idiot and realized that if you don't own Ace then you can't see how the event is done. If you need screen shots of the events PM me.
[RMMV] Random encounter with foe appearing on screen!
Well, I'll start by saying I hate so much random encounters, mostly because they just get me by surprise in the worst timing and I get so annoyed feeling my game being blocked from me, but I was thinking in a system where the enemy will appear on screen in the form of a cloud with the "approach player" set. You can't identify the foe, but it's there.
(just a rough skeleton)
You can see the cloud on screen so you can go away from it if you want to. The foe would be randomized between the possibilities of that area, if you touch it. What do you think about it? I think it would make the battles be more varied and surprising from the beginning.
It would also help our artist a lot, since he wouldn't have to customize a foe sprite for each one of them.
A short note is that our enemies are all "nightmares" the dungeons can be set in any kind of place and theme, since they're 'dreamy-like' spaces and the objective of the dungeons is to achieve the Shrine, so the MC can pray with the "little nightmares" (an item) he gathered from the foes.
Would this work? Any suggestions? Would using a single cloud sprite for every possible encounter other than static bossfights bore the player?
(just a rough skeleton)
You can see the cloud on screen so you can go away from it if you want to. The foe would be randomized between the possibilities of that area, if you touch it. What do you think about it? I think it would make the battles be more varied and surprising from the beginning.
It would also help our artist a lot, since he wouldn't have to customize a foe sprite for each one of them.
A short note is that our enemies are all "nightmares" the dungeons can be set in any kind of place and theme, since they're 'dreamy-like' spaces and the objective of the dungeons is to achieve the Shrine, so the MC can pray with the "little nightmares" (an item) he gathered from the foes.
Would this work? Any suggestions? Would using a single cloud sprite for every possible encounter other than static bossfights bore the player?
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