WEASELELIOT'S PROFILE

post=134800
No. It is NOT a fangame if it's officially authorized. That's sort of the whole idea about fanworks that it isn't officially authorized. The second you get sanctioning from an author or corporation or whatever it ceases to be a fanwork and becomes... official.

Are you replying to me? You do know that I'm saying the exact same thing: That the factor that distinguishes a fanwork from official work is the sanctioning from the original creator. It has NOTHING to do with the quality of the product.

Which leads to this...

Of course in the end this says nothing of the quality of the work. An officially sanctioned batman comic may be a lot worse than the fancreated batman comic.

And a good fancreated Batman comic may not 'miss the point' anymore than the original work does. The Nu-Sonic series is essentially what you get when a shitty fanfic author takes the helm.

This is not difficult to understand. The comic thing is also a good example, but regardless of whether there 'is really no canon anymore' there are still conventions that make Batman Begins/TDK a BATMAN movie.

post=134701
AznChipmunk

My point is: What is a fangame, if it isn't someone else *not the original creator* putting their spin on a certain universe? Chris Avellone is not George Lucas. The only dividing line between a fan game and an official sequel is appraisal by the company. The word fangame has bad connotations but when you look at it from a design/art perspective, there's no difference. If you look at Sonic Chronicles, the only thing Bioware had over say, Sonic Fan Games HQ is resources, staff, etc. The Bioware Doctor behind that game probably dug up his reserve of Sonic fanfiction for that game, and if Enterbrain gave us slightly better software then anyone could have made that game. But let's just agree to disagree.


(And no, Tingle is great. Regardless of whether you like him or not, his games are good and reflect the character well.)

post=134716
Countless conversations like these are why I'm slowly edging towards the 'I literally don't give a shit about anything in the development process/what the game looks like/rips/original graphics/fangame/original concept/battle system/program used to make game/etc as long as its fun' camp. Honestly I think all of us spend too much time driving pointless minute shit into the ground instead of making, playing, and ultimately finishing games, and then ironically when we're confronted about it we throw up our hands and say 'I DON'T HAVE THE TIME TO FINISH MAKING/PLAYING GAMES OKAY' *posts incessantly about stupid shit instead*

I'm not saying we shouldn't have these conversations on the fundamentals of games; they give a lot of insight, but god damn.

*Blushes*

I do agree with you. The people really who care about this shit are busy making their games instead of talking about it. I'LL GO MAKE NOW

^ That sounds fantastic.

post=134599
But I mostly agree with Azn on the originality issue, and I'd still rather try and create my own stuff than taking something directly from other sources. Of course, you can make a fangame that is original in a lot of aspects. But not only that is hard, but you run the risk of corrupting what is good on the source material. I, for once, HATE seeing characters I like from games (like Locke, Terra, Magus) in fangames. It always looks like mockery.

I do think that Aznchipmunk is also right; IF you see game design or whatever as a serious investment/'art'/youknowwhatImean, then having 'something to say' through original work is no doubt more important than piggybacking off of existing works for the rest of your life.

I *do* have original projects floating around at the back of my mind -- certain 'things' to say' -- but I want to keep them in the backburner for now because they're too ambitious (No, and not in the 100+ hr gameplay 50 party member sense) I like the idea of making fangames 'cos:

+ I get to express my love for certain games, have fun

+ Game making underestimated, even with RPG Maker. Making fangames allows me to rip/edit existing graphics without feeling too bad about it. There is *no way* I'm using ripped graphics or RTP to create my original works. And to tell myself that 'oh hey I'll create all the graphics and all the audio and the plot and everything myself' is unrealistic at this busy point in my life.

+ While I rip and edit and write plots for fan games, I'm learning about the craft without thinking TOO MUCH about it. This is the most important thing in regards to doing my original projects justice. It's what they say with art and imitation. You have to start imitating blahblah

Also, games based on existing brands and games based on games: yes, it's kind of different, but only because you have game mechanics from the original work to live up to. With Chrono Trigger, I would not dare attempt a fan game in, say, RPG Maker 2003. eg. people would obviously see a Chrono game with a separate battle screen as infer --- oh, hey (That was a genuine 'oh hey')

Short as possible, ay.

First: Fangames try to imitate source material but almost never attain the quality of the source material and players familiar with the source material will probably judge the work against it. Your FF6 fangame will not be as good as FF6.

This only applies if the game is trying to be a fan sequel. In the case of the spin-off -- the kind of fangame I prefer, that is not necessarily applicable. If you decided to make a . Although it would lack the credibility of a FF title, are you saying that some of the more competent designers here couldn't make something better than Final Fantasy IV or heck Final Fantasy IV: The After?

Second: Fangames, by nature, tend to lack originality. They need an extra push in the creativity department to make them stand out, making them boring very easily. Creators also will try to emulate the "formula" of the original game and this makes the game either super predictable or even more unoriginal. For example a fangame may try to copy cities or bosses or enemies from source material. I worked on a fangame of CT once, and I tried to copy a ton of things directly from CT: maps, locations, plot elements, characters, monsters, etc. Basically I put in a lot of work towards something that would've been much better being original, than spending time making sure my work was accurate to the source.

Er, really, I think MOST games need a push in the creativity department. The 'original' game in which the empire of Lryzaphelia created the crystals of DSDAFDS etc. hey RTP + default battle system! is not more creative than, say, 'Tetris RPG' I don't understand the 'It might as well be original!' fallacy, because what if the idea is closely related to the source material? What if you like the idea of lightsabers? What if the idea is to deconstruct a particular work?

Third: Most of them are made by newbies or those less experienced. It's true. Most of the more experienced developers I've seen use their skills and efforts in creating their own personal original works.

*This* is the only problem with fan games, and why they will almost never be good.

My biggest issue with fangames? They are "tainted" -- fangames lose the personal touch of a creator upon his work. It's not really his work, it's borrowed from somewhere else. It's not really his own expression of creativity and passion but rather an attempt to follow someone else. It's like... being Luigi to someone's Mario. And then, most of the time when fangames do escape this "taint," they are original to the point where the only reason they are a fangame is because the author decided to title it as such.

Do you have an issue with adaptations, too? Adaptations are essentially 'borrowed from somewhere else'. Naoki Urasawa's 'Pluto' manga works because we see an *icon* (Astro Boy) reinterpreted in a different light. It's like saying that the Tingle spin-off is bad because it lacks Shigeru Miyamoto's personal touch or that -- heck - - most of the Final Fantasies lack 'the creator's' personal touch. In the case of the Tingle game, the developers took the key characteristics of Tingle (Rupees) and made a strange, campy adventure game out of it. HECK, Star Wars KOTOR: The Sith Lords was made more interesting than the original game with the new creator's (Chris Avellone) personal touch! To say that he should have saved the story/characters fromt that game for his original work is missing the point.

While all the above are experienced developers, if we boil the idea of fangame to what it ACTUALLY IS, then that's what they are (Well, Pluto is a fan manga)

post=134342
About fangaming x cloning:

I'd rather see a game that is conceptually original but deliberately clones the system of some other good game(s) than seeing a game that is a fangame but twists the systems of the original game.

For instance... I'd rather see a game called "Whoof" that clones Sonic but uses a green dog instead of a blue hedgehog than seeing a Sonic fangame with RM2K3 DBS.

Yeah, unless you're going to turn Sonic into an RPG in the 'accurate' way that Nintendo turned Mario into an RPG, then it's pointless. It defeats the whole spirit and 'point' of the series (Well, it's been already defeated by Sega but don't stomp a hedgehog when it's down)

post=134382
Making a fangame for me was a great way of catapulting me in making RPGs in general..

Same here.