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HOW LONG CAN YOU TOLERATE DIALOGUE TO BE?
Posts
Blind
2262
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CloseMany members will probably raise their eyebrows at this, but I'm actually no fan of long (and plainly done) dialogue sequences! I don't mind extensive bits of non-interactive segments, but only when they are made interesting through polish, movement, variance, and the like. Cutscenes without stage direction are generally on the boring side.
author=BlindSight link=topic=1033.msg14618#msg14618 date=1210022384
Many members will probably raise their eyebrows at this, but I'm actually no fan of long (and plainly done) dialogue sequences! I don't mind extensive bits of non-interactive segments, but only when they are made interesting through polish, movement, variance, and the like. Cutscenes without stage direction are generally on the boring side.
I better see this in that demo you are conveniently still working on!
Shinan
4314
If the dialogue goes by fast I can tolerate quite a bit. Clicking away textboxes because I read them fairly quickly anyway. Unskippable pauses tend to make me frustrated.
With that said I can stand dialogues for longer depending on a number of things:
-Action. If there's action going on while the talking goes on I can live with it a bit longer. People walking around, doing things instead of just standing and talking.
-Voice acting. I can listen to banter a whole lot longer if it's there in good or funny voice acting. In voice acting I also like any kind of dramatic pauses that are shite in text.
-Fun. If it's funny I can read it no matter how long it is.
For your example I read throught it and tried to rework it a bit. I don't want to post the reworking here because it's still very long. I'd get out all the pauses (or make the pauses clickable) Also it has a lot of useless exposition just for exposition's sake. A lot of it is also stuff that should have been known to the player already. If the player knows it you shouldn't tell it again. It doesn't matter what the characters know. Only what th eplayer knows. Depending on where the game starts the player should already know that something went wrong with the Freelancers and that most were killed (perhaps even by who, making the statement of who did it (Archmagister) redundant). There's also other similar pointless things such as stating the name of the Emperor and the current political situation. If the player has been put in a fugitive situation because of "political activisim", this should have become clear earlier and doesn't need repeating.
Of course in a game it can be a problem with how to get around the exposition. Since there may be a lot of optional areas that give information but how does the creator know what the player actually knows? I guess for some really important things you could have some variable that gets activated to tell the player what he needs to know if he has skipped it. Then there's also the option of dialogue choices where you can ask for more information or just get on with it.
Dialogue choices are a good way to spice up any dialogue too. They can talk for a while but then there's a bit of a choice of words and all feels so much better.
With that said I can stand dialogues for longer depending on a number of things:
-Action. If there's action going on while the talking goes on I can live with it a bit longer. People walking around, doing things instead of just standing and talking.
-Voice acting. I can listen to banter a whole lot longer if it's there in good or funny voice acting. In voice acting I also like any kind of dramatic pauses that are shite in text.
-Fun. If it's funny I can read it no matter how long it is.
For your example I read throught it and tried to rework it a bit. I don't want to post the reworking here because it's still very long. I'd get out all the pauses (or make the pauses clickable) Also it has a lot of useless exposition just for exposition's sake. A lot of it is also stuff that should have been known to the player already. If the player knows it you shouldn't tell it again. It doesn't matter what the characters know. Only what th eplayer knows. Depending on where the game starts the player should already know that something went wrong with the Freelancers and that most were killed (perhaps even by who, making the statement of who did it (Archmagister) redundant). There's also other similar pointless things such as stating the name of the Emperor and the current political situation. If the player has been put in a fugitive situation because of "political activisim", this should have become clear earlier and doesn't need repeating.
Of course in a game it can be a problem with how to get around the exposition. Since there may be a lot of optional areas that give information but how does the creator know what the player actually knows? I guess for some really important things you could have some variable that gets activated to tell the player what he needs to know if he has skipped it. Then there's also the option of dialogue choices where you can ask for more information or just get on with it.
Dialogue choices are a good way to spice up any dialogue too. They can talk for a while but then there's a bit of a choice of words and all feels so much better.
I used to have a hard time with this subject.
Basically it shouldn't be a novel. It should be a video game where the storyline serves the gameplay. Information should come only when necessary, and extra lore/fluff can be presented in any quantity so long as it's not manditory gameplay.
Basically it shouldn't be a novel. It should be a video game where the storyline serves the gameplay. Information should come only when necessary, and extra lore/fluff can be presented in any quantity so long as it's not manditory gameplay.
A lot of early RPGs aren't even story focused, so saying someone has to play RPGs for the story is silly. I don't play Oblivion for the storytelling. I don't play FF5 for the story. I don't play Chrono Trigger for the story. I don't play Secret of Mana for the story.
I don't know, I don't play RPGs for the gameplay too much, and I don't really like a lot of early RPG's because of their lack of story. My favorite RPG's are usually the story oriented ones like Xenogears, Vagrant Story, or Final Fantasy Tactics. When you make an RPG, you can't please everyone. My RPG, while having plenty of fun gameplay mechanics, is mainly for those who enjoy the story.
Shadowtext
120
The problem with a game that depends on story rather than gameplay is that it also depends heavily on being able to tell a good story, and games just aren't the best medium for doing that.
But! For the sake of argument, let's assume that you manage it. If you've ever studied writing for film (which games are slightly more like than they are novels, but still at a pretty big remove), you'll almost certainly have been warned against getting too heavy into long drawn out dialogue sequences. In fact, I've been told that you should basically never have a character's dialogue in a movie or television script last longer than four lines without another character talking or somebody doing something. Given the space constraints in script format, that's about one message box in RPG Maker, maybe two.
Also, long conversations run a serious risk of turning into exposition. Exposition is one of the biggest no-nos in story telling--it's when you explain what's happening or what has happened to the audience, rather than just presenting it and letting them figure out what's going on--I noticed a definite tendency towards this in that snippet of dialogue you put up, and you need to watch out for it. Dialogue should be more of a device for revealing character than it should for revealing facts. The audience doesn't care about facts. They care about people.
Every time you write a line of dialogue, you should ask yourself "does this advance someone's character arc?" If the answer is "no", it's a definite candidate for culling, even if it reveals backstory. Even if it advances the main plot, it's probably not as worthwile as another line that does.
(Also: check out this post as an example of why lots and lots of words is bad, even if there's content behind it and the person behind it is a charming adonis, a veritable god of a man, it can be a chore to read through it all)
But! For the sake of argument, let's assume that you manage it. If you've ever studied writing for film (which games are slightly more like than they are novels, but still at a pretty big remove), you'll almost certainly have been warned against getting too heavy into long drawn out dialogue sequences. In fact, I've been told that you should basically never have a character's dialogue in a movie or television script last longer than four lines without another character talking or somebody doing something. Given the space constraints in script format, that's about one message box in RPG Maker, maybe two.
Also, long conversations run a serious risk of turning into exposition. Exposition is one of the biggest no-nos in story telling--it's when you explain what's happening or what has happened to the audience, rather than just presenting it and letting them figure out what's going on--I noticed a definite tendency towards this in that snippet of dialogue you put up, and you need to watch out for it. Dialogue should be more of a device for revealing character than it should for revealing facts. The audience doesn't care about facts. They care about people.
Every time you write a line of dialogue, you should ask yourself "does this advance someone's character arc?" If the answer is "no", it's a definite candidate for culling, even if it reveals backstory. Even if it advances the main plot, it's probably not as worthwile as another line that does.
(Also: check out this post as an example of why lots and lots of words is bad, even if there's content behind it and the person behind it is a charming adonis, a veritable god of a man, it can be a chore to read through it all)
Also, long conversations run a serious risk of turning into exposition. Exposition is one of the biggest no-nos in story telling--it's when you explain what's happening or what has happened to the audience, rather than just presenting it and letting them figure out what's going on--I noticed a definite tendency towards this in that snippet of dialogue you put up, and you need to watch out for it. Dialogue should be more of a device for revealing character than it should for revealing facts. The audience doesn't care about facts. They care about people.
While I see what you're saying, but I disagree heartily. Prime example of a great game that does all of what you said, but does it well? Xenogears.
author=Shadowtext link=topic=1033.msg14695#msg14695 date=1210035820
But! For the sake of argument, let's assume that you manage it. If you've ever studied writing for film (which games are slightly more like than they are novels, but still at a pretty big remove), you'll almost certainly have been warned against getting too heavy into long drawn out dialogue sequences. In fact, I've been told that you should basically never have a character's dialogue in a movie or television script last longer than four lines without another character talking or somebody doing something. Given the space constraints in script format, that's about one message box in RPG Maker, maybe two.
In film theory, you should be able to understand the story of a film(if not all the details) without sound at all - the visual should be able to tell the story on its own. The script tells a story, yes, and the dialogue reveals character, but the dialogue is merely a part of the character's emotion, which is the focus in American cinema.
Obviously, film has a major advantage here because they don't need to have gameplay. But I figured I'd point this out.
Also, in response to Feldschlacht's post:
I honestly think Xenogears was much more enjoyable without all the exposition. I HATED the 2nd disc.
We can agree to disagree on that, though. =D
Shadowtext
120
Yeah, it's tough to hold up Xenogears as a good example of anything in light of Disc 2. I love the game to pieces but it's a deeply flawed experience on just about every level. It punishes you for loving it.
Euphorian
80
I prefer games with a good story, and I can stand a bunch of talking. Ideally, something is happening, or being actively explained, and they're not just talking in circles. As long as it's going somewhere, I'm fine with any amount of time.
...Unfortunately, that has made my main project into I guess what's going to be the Xenosaga among RM games, considering most of my scenes are at least 20 lines long, and several of them get around 10-20 minutes, depending on the player. =(
...Unfortunately, that has made my main project into I guess what's going to be the Xenosaga among RM games, considering most of my scenes are at least 20 lines long, and several of them get around 10-20 minutes, depending on the player. =(
I don't know dialog as long as there aren't any annoying pauses! It just pisses me off because I can read way faster than the text is moving so I get impatient. If I can, I usually just fastfoward it ... only to find that the box is auto-close.
What can really add spice to a scene in the game are definitely poses. I do not know about anyone else, but poses, to me, are a huge plus. They can also look kind of cute, I s'pose, but it makes the talking and scenes much more dynamic, rather than:
"OH GOD! DON'T KILL HER!"
>Increase Speed
> Right
> Right
>Tint screen red
What can really add spice to a scene in the game are definitely poses. I do not know about anyone else, but poses, to me, are a huge plus. They can also look kind of cute, I s'pose, but it makes the talking and scenes much more dynamic, rather than:
"OH GOD! DON'T KILL HER!"
>Increase Speed
> Right
> Right
>Tint screen red
I knew Xenogears 2nd disk would be brought up, and I agree, but for the sake of discussion, let's omit the 2nd disk from my example.
republic
20
In any standard RPG, you got to run around, talk to people, complete objectives, and whack monsters. If your dialogue is too long and is going to interfere with these basic principles, then I'm afraid you're not making an RPG. You'll be venturing into something like a hentai text adventure game Phoenix Wright. I believe there's nothing wrong with that just as long as I'm entertained. It'd probably require a ton of graphics and a good screenplay to immerse your audience though.
Shadowtext
120
author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=1033.msg14714#msg14714 date=1210039036Even the first disc suffers from it to a certain extent, though. I've tried several times to go back and play it again (I can generally play games over and over again, given a few months' downtime), but no dice. Without the drive to get the answer to the next question, it loses a lot of its appeal. Especially when you know that it's not going to be long before you have to go through that freaking sewer dungeon again.
I knew Xenogears 2nd disk would be brought up, and I agree, but for the sake of discussion, let's omit the 2nd disk from my example.
There's a lot of stuff you have to sit through, and it's hurt all the more by the mediocre translation job. If it had writing like the english version of FF12, even the heavy exposition might've been a lot more bearable, since what was going on there was more interesting than the plot in FF12....but not many games from that era did. For that matter, few games do these days(but at least that number's on the rise). Voice acting probably would've helped, too. And while I suppose one in a million amateur games might have writing up to the level of an FF12, Phoenix Wright or Paper Mario....there's basically no chance of getting good voice acting without a professional budget. It's hard enough to get good voice acting WITH a pro budget.
And yeah, republic's got the right idea. If you want to focus on dialogue and downplay gameplay, but still have an interactive element, adventure / visual novel is the way to go. The audience knows what to expect going into it. Plus, bigger character sprites (or are they even considered sprites if they have limited movement?) make it easier to relate to the characters.
VideoWizard
2842
author=Mr.Nemo link=topic=1033.msg14612#msg14612 date=1210021893author=Nightblade link=topic=1033.msg14604#msg14604 date=1210021417
I never liked a lot of the really old school games like FF1 because of this. 4 Generic, silent hereos out to save the world from a villain who want's to destroy the world for no apparent reason.
Hm. I can't actually remember if the original version actually had the kind of awesome ending that the Dawn of Souls version had. Because, if it truly did, then FF1 had a really good plot; the problem was that it was really bad executed.
The original FF did in fact have those elements. The TIME-LOOP thing, which returns everything to how it was every 2000 years, the rotting earth, the fiery volcano, and the sages- all of it. The problem is, like most everything in those days, it suffered from poor translation.
Seriously, we lost a LOT in translation in games right up to modern times. Remember, before the PSX, there were fairly strict limits to deal with. Once FF7 hit, it didn't matter as much, as expanding the script another 30 MB hardly mattered compared to the almost 2 GB big picture. By comparison, the largest SNES game was only 8 MB (64 megabits), IIRC.
