HOW PLANNED-OUT SHOULD YOUR RPG BE BEFORE YOU BEGIN?

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After a 7-year absence from the RM community, I've decided to once again try and make an RPG. I've been thinking about the various things that went wrong with the projects I attempted in RM2K so many years ago, and I think the biggest one was a lack of planning. What I did every time was think up vague concepts for a hero and maybe 2 other party members, a villain, a world, and a basic conflict, and then I'd just jump right into RM2K and try to make something. Unsurprisingly, this never worked... I'd make it to maybe right after the game's first dungeon and then give up, deciding my game's plot was no good (which probably was the case most of the time, but having nothing planned was the bigger issue).

Just a few weeks ago when I made the decision to once again try and make a game, I decided that I'd plan everything carefully this time... I'd buy a notebook to write down and sketch ideas and I wouldn't even open up RPG Maker until I had the game all mapped out. But, just recently I've been thinking, if I already have everything planned out before I ever start making the game, is it still gonna be enjoyable to make it? I'll kinda just be going through the motions.

So, I'm interested in hearing peoples' opinions and personal experiences with this... is it better to plan meticulously or leave things a bit more open for change along the way? I know that, like with all creative processes, there's not just one answer that's right when it comes to making an RPG... but hearing how other people did it can help you come up with your own process.
I say plan the shit out of the game first. In the long run, this is far more enjoyable because you reduce the likelyhood (and frequency) of times where "wtf this doesn't mesh AT ALL with this part of the game now I have to redo this argh!" imho this is far more of an enjoyable experience.

I once made a full RPG in 10 days. I didn't even open up RM2k3 until the 4th day. Before that it was all Textpad and Excel documents.
I don't think that you need a giant notebook full of plot points and such, but I'm not saying that's a bad thing to do. It's great if you have the time for it.

In terms of story... I think that if you know the start, middle, and end to the story and what the motivations are for all of the heroes and villains then you should have a good foundation that will offer you a decent amount of leeway when mapping and such (assuming you don't have the giant notebook of plot points).

Obviously you need to plan ahead with items and monsters so that you can properly organize your database as well. For example, you don't want items 100-125, 176-181, and 225-231 to be swords because that just creates a mess for players who can't sort their inventories (I'm looking at 2000 and 2003 when I say this).
author=kentona
I say plan the shit out of the game first. In the long run, this is far more enjoyable because you reduce the likelyhood (and frequency) of times where "wtf this doesn't mesh AT ALL with this part of the game now I have to redo this argh!" imho this is far more of an enjoyable experience.

I once made a full RPG in 10 days. I didn't even open up RM2k3 until the 4th day. Before that it was all Textpad and Excel documents.
That RPG was called "Hero's Realm" just kidding :D.

I do insist that you plan before you start making it will help a lot and give you a direction and guide on what to do with your game when you become unmotivated or stuck on which direction to take the game. It also increases motivation from time to time. I find that reading my design documents sometimes give me a sudden motivational boost and keeps me working.
While I would never advocate its use for any other type of literature, getting at least a basic outline done should be the first step.

When I sit and write for days/weeks/months and square away every aspect of the game I want to make, not only do I lose interest in the project, but I start to forget the limitations of the maker.

It is easy to get caught up in your own world, writing the game the way you think it should go. When you get to the creation stage, you might have a few things that are very difficult to translate into your maker. Do you change them, or obsess over getting them to work exactly the way you wrote them?

I don't tend to think of my games in a linear progression, so I use note cards. I write characters, plot ideas, themes, combat ideas, set pieces, etc out on cards. I even write the gist of what conversations should say. I find it easier to have a basic idea of the information I want to convey, and then just write the actual conversation out in the maker. It helps keep me thinking in terms of dialog boxes, and how many times the player will tolerate pushing (z) and waiting for another paragraph.

Having it all on note cards allows me to move things around if I notice a pacing problem or something that doesn't make sense.

I've filled two notebooks with information for one of my games. I started working on this game's first iteration back in 2006. I've never been able to translate everything I want to get implemented into the game. I've stopped and started it twenty times, changing the artstyle, the gameplay style, the world, just about everything I could trying to find the best way to reconcile what I put on the page with what came up on the screen.

As a contrast to that: The project that I wrote a brief synopsis of, with almost no dialog, and just vague hints about mechanics, has already made it to the demo stage, gone up on the website and received a positive review. I know (roughly) how long the game will take to complete, and how long it will take to play once completed. I know point a and point z, but I connect the dots in the Maker.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
The feeling you get from writing down your ideas doesn't compare by even 1% to the feeling you get from actually getting the game of your dreams working the way you imagined it in your mind. So I wouldn't worry about losing motivation.

You'll end up with a more coherent game if you plan more, that's for sure. If your game is simple enough, though, maybe you can keep it all in your head. And if you are good enough at improvising, maybe you can do certain aspects of it without planning and they'll end up just as good as they would with a detailed plan. And if you're fast enough with RPG Maker, maybe putting your plans into RPG Maker is just as fast as putting them into a design document. And if visually seeing the stuff in action is a necessary or helpful part of your design process, maybe your plans won't all get followed (but this doesn't necessarily diminish the value of making them).
Having everything planned is great, but when starting a game, I think it's just best to wing it. Make as much as possible. Find out what works and what doesn't. Sure you may have to redo everything, but you'll have a clearer vision and the progress won't be wasted.
Working off of a script in the later stages is highly recommended though. (Especially because you can do spell check on it all at once)

I also agree with this.
author=LockeZ
If visually seeing the stuff in action is a necessary or helpful part of your design process, maybe your plans won't all get followed (but this doesn't necessarily diminish the value of making them).

I'd say do both. Spontaneous planning. Whatever keeps you passionate and motivated.
Make a rough outline, refine that into a scene and/or dialogue breakdown, but leave enough room for improv. Sometimes when you get to something in the maker, it will make more sense to do it a different way, the plans don't have to dictate the content.
I say at least make a rough outline of your game. Personally, I find that I have to actually start using the RPG Maker pretty soon if I want to get somewhere. It may be different for other people though.
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18257
author=kentona
I say plan the shit out of the game first. In the long run, this is far more enjoyable because you reduce the likelyhood (and frequency) of times where "wtf this doesn't mesh AT ALL with this part of the game now I have to redo this argh!" imho this is far more of an enjoyable experience.

I once made a full RPG in 10 days. I didn't even open up RM2k3 until the 4th day. Before that it was all Textpad and Excel documents.


Listen to this man.
Well, the only project that I’ve completely planned out from start to finish, is the only project I’ve ever released something playable for.

Even when I go in with a basic outline, it always falls apart before it goes anywhere, and I’ve attempted more projects than I’ll like to share. Seeing everything written out keeps you motivated and most importantly, on track.

EDIT: Also, it wasn't until I had my entire story written out, that I started seeing plot holes GALORE (even though I thought I knew everything about my story, I still didn't). If I had reliazed that after I was six months in, I would have gotten so stressed and felt like quitting. Even things like working how many towns and dungeons you’ll have in the game allows you to perfectly plan how much equipment there will be, rather than just leaving massive gaps everywhere in the database. Man, just plan it out, seriously.
I plan my game as I'm creating it. So any time I come up with something, like how much exp each monster will give or quests, I add it to the text files. If I come up with an idea, I add it to the long list of ideas that I go access when I want to work on something new. I have a text file that contains all the things I've done and all the things I want to do.

I don't think you need to write lots of stuff out before you work on the game, as long as you keep good notes during the creative process it shouldn't get out of control. Unless you're bad at keeping notes :/
Thanks for the answers guys, keep 'em coming.
I think it really depends on how convoluted your plot is. If it is fairly simple then planning isn't entirely necessary, but if your game is all about political intrigue and subtle plot devices then yeah. plan everything out to the letter.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Even if your plot is simple, you should be planning out your gameplay.
Plan out what is difficult/tedious to redo.

Improv what's easy to fix.

This is project specific. If internal causality is important to your plot, get it right get it tight.

The freedom to tweak and improv, which I find enjoyable, is always there, regardless of how much prep work you do. The prep work is there as a tool to help you make a better project.
Commercial RPGs are completely planned.

RPG Maker for Playstation suggests this workflow:

1. Develop ideas and concept.
2. Create title screen.
3. Create the characters and skills they will use.
4. Create monsters.
5. Create items.
6. Create magic and abilities.
7. Create maps.
8. Combine all the elements you've created by now working on the event data.
9. Finally, beta test.

It can be helpful to use placeholder graphics at first. Then, when everything is finished, simply replace the graphics with the correct ones.

If you are aiming for completion, it is a long process. If you simply want to tell a story, it's much more efficient to write a novel.
I tend to plan the general idea beforehand, but when it comes time to actually start working on the game (including the plot), to be honest, I play it by ear. Literally, I just kind of let it come to me and see what happens, and it if works, I keep it. If not, I change what isn't working. Probably not the most efficient way to go about it, but meh. Lately I've been doing more planing ahead, though, and that seems to be working along with a balance of just diving in.
InfectionFiles
the world ends in whatever my makerscore currently is
4622
For me personally, I like to have an idea of what the end-game is going to be. Make sure you know that all the little(and big) things that lead up to the end make sense and can actually connect.
If you have an idea for a ending, the finale then I think you have something to work up to.

Because sometimes the stuff in between isn't that important and can probably be made up on the spot, given it flows with the things obviously.
Like for my zombie game, I had general stuff planned out, but it's not like each scene and whatnot was planned out meticulously beforehand. I knew where I wanted to go from the beginning to end and I filled in what happens in the middle.

Might not be the best way, but I think it helps to plan carefully but at the same time let your creative process flow freely abit when it isn't dire.
author=kentona
plan the shit out of the game first


Listen to the creator of one of the most awesomest games on this site. All the major developers such as Bethesda and Rockstar, and even indie developers such as Jonathan Blow and Terry Cavanagh, plan their game before making it. Of course, they'll make a prototype to make sure that gameplay is actually fun before planning the rest of it, but most of the things about a game have to be planned, put into document form, revised, reused, and referred to again and again in order to make a game cohesive and professional. Unless, you're not looking to make a cohesive and professional game. Then you can do whatever the crap you want. Just don't expect a good game to come out of it.

(not that I'm one to talk :P)
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