UNLOCKING EQUIPMENT (AND OTHER UPGRADES)

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LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
As you play through a game with anything even remotely resembling an RPG style progression, you'll get upgrades as you go. Some of these will be better versions of things you already have, while others will be alternatives to things you already have, and others will be upgrades that occupy their own "slot" and don't take the place of anything else.

There are a lot of ways to obtain these things. Some of the more common ones in RPGs are:
- Bought with money, which is typically a common resource obtained in a variety of ways
- Obtained as part of the story
- Granted as a reward for an optional quest
- Found in a treasure chest during exploration
- Randomly dropped by enemies which can be fought over and over
- Randomly dropped by enemies or found in chests which there are a limited number of (randomly generated content, such as in a roguelike)
- Won from some kind of battle arena
- Crafted or customized via some kind of more complex system
- Won in some kind of minigame

Which of these do you prefer over others, and why? Do you prefer some of them for certain types of upgrades? It doesn't have to be on this list; I'm sure I forgot some.

For example, I find most minigames obnoxious, because they tend to be a wildly different type of gameplay than what I really turned on the game to play (racing minigame in an RPG), and they also tend to be far worse than real games of the genre they're emulating (I'd definitely rather play SSX Tricky than FF7 Snowboarding). As a result, if I have to play a minigame to get an upgrade that's irreplacable or that's really strong for the point in the game that it becomes available, I get annoyed. But if it's something I can easily skip, it doesn't bother me - because if I get sick of the minigame, I can play the real game instead, and eventually get the same reward.

On the flip side, I think most of the best stuff in the game is better suited to the more complex and time consuming methods like crafting, battle arenas, and sidequests. I actually think all types of upgrades become better suited to these methods as the game goes on - start it out simple, giving the player their early upgrades with less effort, and then require more effort as the game goes on. Basically this is a matter of expecting the player to get better at the game as he plays it, and thus find those things to be less of a burden. Also, it feels like the effort matches the reward better.
Why can't the player earn the special upgrade by defeating the special monster in a certain land? I think having some upgrades be one of a kind would add more value to them and would probably encourage the player to obtain them more. I really do think that special upgrades should be optional and not obligatory to progress further into the story as that would kind of ruin it.
My preferred measure of equipment unlocking depends on how diverse the equipment is.

For the typical RPGMaker-style equipment upgrade, where there's a linear progression of "Sword that is better than the previous Sword" with only occasional special effects, I'd say that selling in shops is really the only way to distribute for necessary equipment (It could be supplemented with other means, such as random drops), and you could use optional quests to distribute the highest-level (or significantly higher than currently available) gear. I'm not fond of creating equipment in this system that is better than everything else, but only found through random chance.

My preferred style of equipment distribution, though, takes a more roguelike or tabletop-rpg style of distribution: You'll find most of your gear by picking it off of dead humanoid enemies. Most of them will probably have gear that's worse than yours, but a few will have better gear. As you increase in level, begin to move to higher-level areas, and start fighting stronger enemies, you'll also find that they're equipped with better gear on average (this is because of their level, not yours). Equipment is also more diverse: Over the course of a certain area, you may find several pieces of equipment that are "better" than your current weapon, but it can't be said that any one of them is clearly superior because they all excel in different situations.

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author=supremewarrior
Why can't the player earn the special upgrade by defeating the special monster in a certain land? I think having some upgrades be one of a kind would add more value to them and would probably encourage the player to obtain them more. I really do think that special upgrades should be optional and not obligatory to progress further into the story as that would kind of ruin it.

Two problems with this approach:
First: This approach can't be used just on its own, and needs some other means to supplement it. (This isn't really a problem, but it is something that would have to be addressed).

Second: You run into the Infinity+1 problem: If good equipment is given after optional battles, where do you give the best equipment? After the hardest battle, right?
Except this means that any player who can get the best equipment doesn't need it, because they've proven that they can beat the hardest battle without the best equipment, so they'd have no need for its help to go out and fight less difficult battles. I'm more in favor of giving out equipment after quests: Not necessarily something that takes a lot of skill or a high-level character, but something that requires a significant investment of time (while also hopefully providing a decent challenge)
author=LockeZ
For example, I find most minigames obnoxious, because they tend to be a wildly different type of gameplay than what I really turned on the game to play (racing minigame in an RPG), and they also tend to be far worse than real games of the genre they're emulating (I'd definitely rather play SSX Tricky than FF7 Snowboarding). As a result, if I have to play a minigame to get an upgrade that's irreplacable or that's really strong for the point in the game that it becomes available, I get annoyed. But if it's something I can easily skip, it doesn't bother me - because if I get sick of the minigame, I can play the real game instead, and eventually get the same reward.

I totally agree. Typically, if I’m unlocking something from playing a mini-game, I don’t think it shouldn’t be anything more than a neat bonus. For example, in a “Tales of” game, if you win at a mini-game you’ll unlock a new costume, character title or a cooking recipe. Something that helps the player, or something that they think is cool, but not something that they necessarily need. I mean, most mini-games are designed to be a fun distraction, so if you’re playing it to win stuff all these powerful upgrades, then it kind of becomes a grind. Like, if you win at triple triad in FF8, you unlock more cards so you can continue playing triple triad, that’s what you get.

I also think anything random is a really bad idea. I want to get fair progression from doing something that took skill, and the reward to be relative to that. I do not want to spend time farming for a item. I don’t get any sense of achievement from getting random drops. “Man, that enemy just dropped a Hi-Potion! I’m so skilled at this game, everyone will be so jealous when I show my print screen.”. No, fuck that.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=Muninn
author=supremewarrior
Why can't the player earn the special upgrade by defeating the special monster in a certain land? I think having some upgrades be one of a kind would add more value to them and would probably encourage the player to obtain them more. I really do think that special upgrades should be optional and not obligatory to progress further into the story as that would kind of ruin it.
You run into the Infinity+1 problem: If good equipment is given after optional battles, where do you give the best equipment? After the hardest battle, right?
Except this means that any player who can get the best equipment doesn't need it, because they've proven that they can beat the hardest battle without the best equipment, so they'd have no need for its help to go out and fight less difficult battles.

Well, the hardest battle is the final boss. Even if it's not at the end of the story, it's the final enemy you kill. So I don't think anyone is really hoping for it to grant an upgrade as a reward, unless you have a game with regularly released updates that expand the game and add new harder challenges (many online games do this). It should give some kind of reward, but not an upgrade; the most common reward is, well, the game's ending.

That doesn't mean every single enemy except the hardest battle can't give a special upgrade, though.

The idea that upgrades that take their own "slot" should be optional is flawed. In fact, this is almost never the case. They are almost always thing you get as part of the story and cannot avoid. Because when something is a key tool required to progress forward, it often makes sense for the player to always have access to it, and therefore it needs to have its own "slot" and not get replaced by a defense boost later. In several of the Legend of Zelda games, for example, think of the item that lets you swim underwater. This isn't something you want to have to swap out for the hookshot; it's something that you want to have access to all the time once you get it. So instead of taking a tool slot, it gets stuck on your list of permanent upgrades, alongside the gem that lets you walk through superheated areas, the power bracelet, the pegasus boots, the spin attack, the ability to turn into a wolf, and whatever else the game wants you to always have access to no matter what equipment you're using.

Not to say there aren't plenty of example of cases where it really is optional, though. The ribbon you get after fighting Atropos in Chrono Trigger simply boosts Robo's speed and mdef, for example. Speed tabs and power tabs in Chrono Trigger are another example. As a more interesting example, I've played games where if you learn a certain spell, you can summon a pet to fight alongside you. The pet becomes a permanent companion. But it's purely a combat upgrade, and you might never get that spell, because it costs a ton of money to buy the spell. So while the enemies are balanced more and more around the assumption that you'll have a pet as you get further and further into the game, it never strictly requires you to have the spell.

author=Little Wing Guy
Like, if you win at triple triad in FF8, you unlock more cards so you can continue playing triple triad, that’s what you get.
You clearly never actually played much Triple Triad. You can refine triple triad cards into magic spells. And it's the best way in the game to get magic spells, because you can get powerful spells much earlier than you can by drawing from enemies. You can get 99 firagas on everyone before you go to the first dungeon, with about four hours of playing cards.
Trihan
"It's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly...timey wimey...stuff."
3359
I think Hex in Last Scenario is a good example of a minigame that bleeds into getting extra stuff. There's some pieces of equipment in the game that you can only get by trading in hex tiles, but the best stuff comes from the best tiles. So you can trade one-of-a-kind tiles for awesome stuff, but then you can't use the tiles to play Hex, making it harder to win.
I like the idea of the best stuff being given via personal sidequests. Optional but worth the effort and not so out of the way that you'd never have a chance of finding them without documentation - I'm looking at you, Zodiac Spear.

I don't have the patience (or luck or skill) to gather all the macguffins/play all the minigames to build/get the super awesome sword of doom +1, and while I like finding some normal 'next level' gear in chests strewn about the dungeon, I prefer to put my money to use. So yeah, optional dungeons/sidequests for special weaponry/armour, normal progression and buying for next area items.

Especially if the sidequests are ones that focus on the characters and give a deeper connection/background to them. That way it's win/win for both story and gameplay~
Trihan
"It's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly...timey wimey...stuff."
3359
One idea I had for Tundra is that due to the cast largely being pretty dysfunctional in various ways, I was going to give every character a "flaw" in battle that makes them less convenient to use (but not to the point of unplayability and they'd all be more-or-less equally unfair for balance). Said flaws would be overcome via early to midgame optional sidequests that go into the character's reason for possessing the flaw and their efforts to resolve that part of them.

For example, Zach would initially (at least occasionally) cast a random spell from his list rather than the one you picked. This would be justified by the fact that Zach is actually a terrible spellcrafter, but *spoilers* there is a good reason for this that his sidequest would explain *spoilers* and after you do that sidequest and see the reason/resolve his problem he would be a more effective caster in battle.
That's actually a pretty cool idea. :D
- Found on the floor / tree / portal when the moons are in the right phases / the exotic dance club off Pink Street at night after a show

Hell in Altima you could get the best weapon in the game as the first thing you do (pick up a hidden item on the continent you start on, sell it to buy the skiff, go to where the Mystic Sword is hidden and pick it up); The best armor had to wait until you got the ship
. My personal projects have a focus on exploration and on the world map and I put invisible treasure on them like this. There's three types: Ones with markers (Altima exclusively used these: Every hidden item is under a singular tree. A NPC or two hint/tell the player this.), ones that appear with a '?' over the players head (the '?' can denote other things too), and ones with no visual indicator but hints in the game tell the player where it is (Altima has two dungeons like this: Other dungeons had rewards that gave hints where they were. The final dungeon was one of these and about a third of the dungeon rewards in the game were hints saying where it is). There's the obvious problem that there isn't much stopping the player from combing every last square of the map mashing X finding stuff. The only two deterrents I have planned for the future so far are having a big world map where it will take a lot of time to check every square and a pseudo-random to the '?' treasures which doubles as a means that there might be new treasure on old world map routes so it can't be picked clean on the first passage.


There's also stealing / morphing but I've never been a big fan of either of those. Rewards for trying to steal at usually god awful chances and holding off killing the boss until it finally lands is boring to me. I'd rather the thief character got a passive that gave better drops, either better chances or a better loot table, than a steal command. Or maybe challenges or killing enemies in unusual ways. Anything more interesting than using the same command over and over again.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I definitely don't feel like "press the A button on every tile in the game" is a compelling game mechanic. I also feel that as a designer you should try to make the most effective way to play the game also be the most fun way. Because even if blindly tile-searching is massively unfun, a lot of people are going to be compelled to do it if it's faster than getting the hints or if they can do it much earlier in the game than they can get the hints. And then as an end result, those people will not only be bored, but they'll also be overpowered and so the next part of the game will lack any challenge and so that will be boring too.

Therefore I really think that if you're going to include this kind of hidden item placement, including hints isn't a good plan. Making them invisible at first but giving the player some kind of "radar" later in the game has the same problem. The visual indicators admittedly lack a little bit of magic when you find them, since it doesn't feel like solving a puzzle, but it's outweighted by the fact that they cause far fewer problems in my experience. If you want to hide items due to puzzles and riddles, I'd make sure to always put the hint and the location in the same dungeon, and make sure not to make the hints be so obtuse that no one can figure them out and the player ends up searching every tile anyway (see: La Mulana).
A radar might work, I never thought of one before and I already got a minimap that points to vehicles so I might be able to slap them together too. At the very least it could be a '?' finder later on. Visual indicators are more meant to be that chest you find in a dungeon but in a world map where there's a decent chance it'll be a treasure of some kind. Nothing too fancy beyond another light and quick exploration incentive. I agree with you on the La Mulana too (I love the game but jesus it is dumb and brutal), hints you find are recorded, marked, and sorted based on what the hint is about and none are for inside of dungeons (hell the original Altima's dungeons were just a series of fights).


Pressing A on every tile isn't meant to be a compelling game mechanic; It's something that, I hope, only the craziest of OCDers will even consider. It is technically an option that I hope nobody takes. If anything is going to trigger it for anybody else it'll probably be after the player already has a hint and has, correctly or not, narrowed down where they need to mash A. The more I think about it the more I agree that the current idea definitely needs some work and the radar is a good starting place on a better implementation on the really hidden treasure.
Knowing me: A dude who will gladly skip RM sidequests that make me work for my enjoyment, I feel compelled to point my players in the right direction. Especially if the side quest system is one of my more major features.
So any progression items received randomly are a bit void in my concepts. Though that won't stop me from making easter egg items.
Example: Ziro doesn't pick up an upgrade at the beginning of the game, and then learns Ultima by doing some random quest in a desert.
...Ultima deals 999 damage. Cannot miss, nor lowered by def/mdef. Sexy... if my character weren't hitting 10000~ every hit.
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