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COMMERCIAL GAMS - A PHILOSOPHICAL & PRACTICALITY DEBATE
Posts
FlyingJester
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CloseI have the 'oh god not another RPG maker game' reaction occasionally. Because I come from a land where it takes monumental work to get anything running at all.
From people who do a lot of programming and game developing with less...I actually don't know a good way to describe it, 'prebuilt' engines, it's easy to look at RPG Maker and say "the engine is doing all the work for you. You didn't work for that". I don't (usually) feel that way, I look at it that with a tool like RPG Maker you can focus on content instead of being bogged down with mechanics.
That being said, I expect great content from RPG Maker games. And if they look too unoriginal or simple, I do have a gut 'ew it's an RPG Maker game' reaction. I would go so far as to say that if I recognize anything from the RTP (which I spend very little time getting acquainted with), and the game was commercial, I would be disappointed.
From people who do a lot of programming and game developing with less...I actually don't know a good way to describe it, 'prebuilt' engines, it's easy to look at RPG Maker and say "the engine is doing all the work for you. You didn't work for that". I don't (usually) feel that way, I look at it that with a tool like RPG Maker you can focus on content instead of being bogged down with mechanics.
That being said, I expect great content from RPG Maker games. And if they look too unoriginal or simple, I do have a gut 'ew it's an RPG Maker game' reaction. I would go so far as to say that if I recognize anything from the RTP (which I spend very little time getting acquainted with), and the game was commercial, I would be disappointed.
Seeric
2155
author=MISTER BIG T
Uh, if they're unfamiliar with it how can they tell it's RPG Maker game?
Just to clarify, I meant people who have at least heard about RPG Maker, but who may have never used it nor actually played a game made in it. RPG Maker games, especially those using the RTP assets, are usually pretty easy to identify even from a single screenshot. There are also plenty who will instantly dislike a game they have not even seen a screenshot of if they so much as hear that it was made using RPG Maker. For example, while none of the RPG Maker games uploaded to Greenlight when it first launched were necessarily masterpieces, the comments section for any given game was filled to the brim with comments along the lines of "RPG Maker no" instead of anything resembling feedback about the game itself.
Basically, I meant that in this particular way RPG Maker games are quite a bit like anime; in both cases there is enough of a sense of general negativity surrounding the medium that many people who do not bother watching/playing products created in the medium have a knee jerk negative reaction to anything at all associated with the medium instead of judging a work on its own merits.
EDIT: FlyingJester above me probably clarified it perfectly.
author=KingArthurThis is true, if you only look at this topic. However, there have been handful of other topics on this subject, as well as the IRC roundtable we held last week and the numerous private conversations I've had (and you can't forget the number of commercial games I have denied in the past 10 months, too).
Overall, given the genuine concern for the well-being of free games on RMN should commercial ventures come in, a lack of clear demand for commercial games on RMN, and a seemingly generally negative outlook on the proposal, I'm coming to the conclusion that while RMN isn't against the idea of commercial games we also aren't willing to take the gamble. I think that as the RMN community, we just don't consider commercial games worth the time, effort, and risk involved in bringing them here.
I think you also have to consider that there is going to be a bit of bias in any polls or discussions of it here on the forums - we ARE the hobbyist developers and the potential commercial devs aren't around to say "hey yes, I would love this. RMN's gameprofiles are super! Can I haz?". Just something to keep in mind. Besides, it's not the number arguments for either side that matters, nor even the number of people on either side making said arguments. And with few exceptions, no one is firmly partisan on the issue.
Splitting commercial games into a separate area is not going to happen - one, there is no real benefit for doing this, and B, it's a lot of work to do. What I do intend to do is add another checkbox to gameprofiles that says "Is Commercial?" and that will give be an easy hook to filter or search or select commercial games from non-commercial. (So, I COULD build out a Commercial gams only page/list based on this, if we ever wanted to, but I am not going to duplicate the underlying code and classes and infrastructure just for the handful of commercial gams we might get)
Personally, I am ready to embark on implementing this change. I truly believe that things won't change all that much either way.
Am I the only one who finds it kind of odd that so many people are saying there's a clear consensus on no when it seems to be pretty evenly split?
If it ever becomes a problem, it would be pretty easy to just change the policy again, no?
If it ever becomes a problem, it would be pretty easy to just change the policy again, no?
I don't think it will make a huge difference and I don't think sham commercial projects are going to be any more numerous than sham free projects.
@Sailerius: The only problem with reverting the change is that it serves as a betrayal of people who invested time making a commercial project page. It would lead to hurt feelings and wasted time, which no one likes, so that's why we're having the discussion now I assume :)
@Sailerius: The only problem with reverting the change is that it serves as a betrayal of people who invested time making a commercial project page. It would lead to hurt feelings and wasted time, which no one likes, so that's why we're having the discussion now I assume :)
Yes, that is why I am holding the discussions now. Commercial devs who do decide to invest their time into RMN have to trust that I am not going to pull the rug out from under them.
The commercial checkbox is a pretty good idea to have, and I feel better about the sorting and finding issue now.
However, I kinda always got the feeling this thread wasn't really asking for our opinions, but rather just warning us what was gonna happen anyway. My suspicions have been confirmed.
However, I kinda always got the feeling this thread wasn't really asking for our opinions, but rather just warning us what was gonna happen anyway. My suspicions have been confirmed.
Dyhalto
7536
author=SaileriusYes you are, because the "even split" is between people adamantly opposed vs don't-see-why-not.
Am I the only one who finds it kind of odd that so many people are saying there's a clear consensus on no when it seems to be pretty evenly split?
Looks like kentona has his heart set on it anyway.
author=kentonaDon't worry. They'll just cut and paste their pre-written pitch from other sites.
Commercial devs who do decide to invest their time into RMN have to trust that I am not going to pull the rug out from under them.
c'mon, everyone knows that I am the king of waffling and unable to make a firm decision. I have my heart set on very few things. (I said right in the OP that I was more or less ambivalent on commercial gams)
First off, I believe we should stop being hostile towards kentona or presume there's any supposed "my way or the highway" attitude at work. If kentona really did want to push this change he'd have just gone ahead and done it. If anything, we should thank kentona for holding this discussion and allowing all of us an opportunity to chime in.
Now then:
Indeed, and some of the things you mentioned are obviously beyond my ability to see as well, so my conclusion used primarily this topic as the source of data. I think I did a fair enough job reviewing the discussion in this topic thus far though, at least!
Thing is we also have some commercial devs voicing their opinions here, most notably Harmonic. With them taking part in this discussion though, I'd have at least expected a more enthusiastic reaction from them, rather than the "hmm yeah this might be good, but..." posts that permeate this discussion. Too small data sample, or an actual hesitance towards the change? Food for thought.
I assumed any separation would've been done with an internal tag of some sort with list filtering done on the backend anyway. Duplicating the entire infrastructure is indeed a waste of time as you've just said.
Now then:
This is true, if you only look at this topic. However, there have been handful of other topics on this subject, as well as the IRC roundtable we held last week and the numerous private conversations I've had (and you can't forget the number of commercial games I have denied in the past 10 months, too).
Indeed, and some of the things you mentioned are obviously beyond my ability to see as well, so my conclusion used primarily this topic as the source of data. I think I did a fair enough job reviewing the discussion in this topic thus far though, at least!
I think you also have to consider that there is going to be a bit of bias in any polls or discussions of it here on the forums - we ARE the hobbyist developers and the potential commercial devs aren't around to say "hey yes, I would love this. RMN's gameprofiles are super! Can I haz?". Just something to keep in mind. Besides, it's not the number arguments for either side that matters, nor even the number of people on either side making said arguments. And with few exceptions, no one is firmly partisan on the issue.
Thing is we also have some commercial devs voicing their opinions here, most notably Harmonic. With them taking part in this discussion though, I'd have at least expected a more enthusiastic reaction from them, rather than the "hmm yeah this might be good, but..." posts that permeate this discussion. Too small data sample, or an actual hesitance towards the change? Food for thought.
Splitting commercial games into a separate area is not going to happen - one, there is no real benefit for doing this, and B, it's a lot of work to do. What I do intend to do is add another checkbox to gameprofiles that says "Is Commercial?" and that will give be an easy hook to filter or search or select commercial games from non-commercial. (So, I COULD build out a Commercial gams only page/list based on this, if we ever wanted to, but I am not going to duplicate the underlying code and classes and infrastructure just for the handful of commercial gams we might get)
I assumed any separation would've been done with an internal tag of some sort with list filtering done on the backend anyway. Duplicating the entire infrastructure is indeed a waste of time as you've just said.
author=KingArthurI strongly support this change, but have nothing of value to add to the discussion, so I didn't post sooner. In general, a topic like this will attract more posters who are against it than people who are for it, since people who are against it will likely have more to say.
Thing is we also have some commercial devs voicing their opinions here, most notably Harmonic. With them taking part in this discussion though, I'd have at least expected a more enthusiastic reaction from them, rather than the "hmm yeah this might be good, but..." posts that permeate this discussion. Too small data sample, or an actual hesitance towards the change? Food for thought.
Dyhalto
7536
author=KingArthur
First off, I believe we should stop being hostile towards kentona or presume there's any supposed "my way or the highway" attitude at work.
Hostility was never my intention x.x;
From reading kentona's posts, I've been picking up a slight disposition towards going ahead and allowing commercials, but the purpose of discussion has been to see if anybody points out a big site-destroying pink elephant smaller talks might have missed.
Sorry kentona. I didn't mean for any aggression or ill will.
No one's trying to be hostile here, I just found the overall purpose of this thread to be somewhat misleading and in need of clarification. Dyhalto pointed it out perfectly above though, we were to try and find an absolute dealbreaker here and we failed to do so. And in truth, I can't really think of one. For me, personally, it's just a bunch of little things that I'm worried about.
One of those things that I hadn't even thought of before, and that I'd like to make mention of, is the possibility that people may jump on newbies with commercial projects and harass them to the point where they feel they aren't welcome. That happens here with FREE games. Hell, there's one instance I know of where a group of people were actively trying to get someone to leave by posting bad screens from his game anywhere he posted in the forums to make fun of him (even when he was trying to stick up for fellow newbies). These were longtime members, and they were actually supported by members of the staff at the time (read: NOT the new staff we have now).
If this is going to happen, we may want to think of ways to prevent this kind of behaviour, as dissatisfied customers tend to be quite vocal when they can be. Maybe you could have special additions to the commercial profiles, leading to user reviews from other sites and such? Extra staff to enforce cyber bullying rules? I'm just thinking on the spot now, but I do think it's worth considering preventative measures. Deckiller's been quite amazing at finding trolls and bullies from what I've seen, but it may become hard to handle with twice the amount of profiles incoming and the added element of money being exchanged.
One of those things that I hadn't even thought of before, and that I'd like to make mention of, is the possibility that people may jump on newbies with commercial projects and harass them to the point where they feel they aren't welcome. That happens here with FREE games. Hell, there's one instance I know of where a group of people were actively trying to get someone to leave by posting bad screens from his game anywhere he posted in the forums to make fun of him (even when he was trying to stick up for fellow newbies). These were longtime members, and they were actually supported by members of the staff at the time (read: NOT the new staff we have now).
If this is going to happen, we may want to think of ways to prevent this kind of behaviour, as dissatisfied customers tend to be quite vocal when they can be. Maybe you could have special additions to the commercial profiles, leading to user reviews from other sites and such? Extra staff to enforce cyber bullying rules? I'm just thinking on the spot now, but I do think it's worth considering preventative measures. Deckiller's been quite amazing at finding trolls and bullies from what I've seen, but it may become hard to handle with twice the amount of profiles incoming and the added element of money being exchanged.
author=sbester
If this is going to happen, we may want to think of ways to prevent this kind of behaviour, as dissatisfied customers tend to be quite vocal when they can be. Maybe you could have special additions to the commercial profiles, leading to user reviews from other sites and such? Extra staff to enforce cyber bullying rules? I'm just thinking on the spot now, but I do think it's worth considering preventative measures. Deckiller's been quite amazing at finding trolls and bullies from what I've seen, but it may become hard to handle with twice the amount of profiles incoming and the added element of money being exchanged.
We have a report button for a reason. If you see bullying take place, just let the staff know. Harassment is not condoned by this site.
but it may become hard to handle with twice the amount of profiles incoming and the added element of money being exchanged.
I think you're significantly overestimating how many commercial projects are going to be submitted. Twice the current number? Holy crap. On RMW, there are only 7 commercial project threads to the hundreds of non-commercial.
Those are definitely a concern, one that will always exist. (Though your estimate of twice as many submissions is probably too aggressive!)
Anywho, I am testing out some builds of this in DEV right now. I have gameprofiles updated there to have a IS COMMERCIAL? flag, and have a flag on the public gameprofile that says Commercial with a little money icon.
I also added in to the games list (next to the Genre tags) a Commercial tag. I also have a filter Exclude Commercial Games checkbox in the filters, and by default it is ON for the games portal, and OFF for the Full games list.
At this time, in all other respects, gameprofiles flagged as commercial are identical to regular gameprofiles - you can sub, review, nominate, post, etc... Before expending effort into fulling implementing it, I need to:
1) make a firm decision either way
2) think about (and take requests) for features/ways to showcase games in this new landscape
3) ???
4) profit!
This is all just in DEV right now. There is currently no way for one to get a list of only commercial games (its either FREE GAMS or ALL GAMS for the list)
Anywho, I am testing out some builds of this in DEV right now. I have gameprofiles updated there to have a IS COMMERCIAL? flag, and have a flag on the public gameprofile that says Commercial with a little money icon.
I also added in to the games list (next to the Genre tags) a Commercial tag. I also have a filter Exclude Commercial Games checkbox in the filters, and by default it is ON for the games portal, and OFF for the Full games list.
At this time, in all other respects, gameprofiles flagged as commercial are identical to regular gameprofiles - you can sub, review, nominate, post, etc... Before expending effort into fulling implementing it, I need to:
1) make a firm decision either way
2) think about (and take requests) for features/ways to showcase games in this new landscape
3) ???
4) profit!
This is all just in DEV right now. There is currently no way for one to get a list of only commercial games (its either FREE GAMS or ALL GAMS for the list)
ILLICIT REVENUE STREAM
that made me laugh a little bit.
Just a suggestion, next to the -commercial- checkbox for developers submitting a game, you might want to add a little hover/pop-up bullet list of what qualifies as "Commercial". I imagine that'll save you trouble with mis-submitted games in the long run.
that made me laugh a little bit.
Just a suggestion, next to the -commercial- checkbox for developers submitting a game, you might want to add a little hover/pop-up bullet list of what qualifies as "Commercial". I imagine that'll save you trouble with mis-submitted games in the long run.
