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FEELINGS ABOUT DUNGEON CRAWLERS?
Posts
Backwards_Cowboy
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CloseSo, I'm thinking about starting work on a new RPG VXAce game, and wanted to make a game similar in design to the Etrian Odyssey and Class of Heroes series. For starters, I always liked the amount of customization in those games. In addition to that, they seem to be a pretty easy game to make in terms of design and functionality. But before I start, I wanted to get a general idea of what people do like and what they don't like to see in this type of game. Of course, I've already got a few things in the "Don't" list, like excessive grinding and confusing map/interface layouts, and some stuff in the "Do" list, like character customization and optional sidequests.
A quick overview of the key differences I'd be having that could render some complaints obsolete:
- I wouldn't be doing the dungeons in first-person, so confusing mapping wouldn't be as much of an issue.
- As the game gets further along in completion, I'd be replacing the default material with custom graphics, so "RTP Quest" and recolored elemental enemies would be avoided.
Anyways, I wanted to get some feedback on the overall genre so I can avoid making a game that just pisses people off. I've got about three or four weeks of thought and some planning into it, so I have a pretty general idea of what I want to do, and want to be able to make changes based on the feedback before I get too far into it to do so.
A quick overview of the key differences I'd be having that could render some complaints obsolete:
- I wouldn't be doing the dungeons in first-person, so confusing mapping wouldn't be as much of an issue.
- As the game gets further along in completion, I'd be replacing the default material with custom graphics, so "RTP Quest" and recolored elemental enemies would be avoided.
Anyways, I wanted to get some feedback on the overall genre so I can avoid making a game that just pisses people off. I've got about three or four weeks of thought and some planning into it, so I have a pretty general idea of what I want to do, and want to be able to make changes based on the feedback before I get too far into it to do so.
I like dungeon crawls but because there are so many of them out there you should make yours have something that no-one else's has. A draw point, of sorts. Something to make yours pop out from the rest.
You also have to keep in mind that there are different kinds of dungeon crawlers - some are heavier on story and progression, others are more about the treasure, while still others are about the grind and party. What are your players aiming for? Is it the end of a goal? (Become a hero/escape the dungeon) It is a plot item/person? (Find the McGuffin/rescue the Prince). Will there be a resupply point or is the game set fully within the dungeon itself? Will there be respite areas or not?
Personally I like there to be a resupply/safe place either within a dungeon or easily accessible outside the dungeon (think Azure Dreams or Dark Cloud). I'm also a fan of lots of treasure/rewards and something outside the dungeon to do (like the aforementioned series')
You also have to keep in mind that there are different kinds of dungeon crawlers - some are heavier on story and progression, others are more about the treasure, while still others are about the grind and party. What are your players aiming for? Is it the end of a goal? (Become a hero/escape the dungeon) It is a plot item/person? (Find the McGuffin/rescue the Prince). Will there be a resupply point or is the game set fully within the dungeon itself? Will there be respite areas or not?
Personally I like there to be a resupply/safe place either within a dungeon or easily accessible outside the dungeon (think Azure Dreams or Dark Cloud). I'm also a fan of lots of treasure/rewards and something outside the dungeon to do (like the aforementioned series')
Make a dungeon crawler that WILL piss people off. You know, the ones where you fall into a pit and get devoured by high level enemies, get back to town with barely enough HP and rest in the inn and suffer heavy monetary losses to repair equipment or healing allies. The ones where you underestimate the monsters in the new Floor and they wipe your party out because you weren't paying attention in battle. The ones where there's damage floors everywhere so you have to tread lightly. The ones where the map turns dark and makes it hard to navigate so that you take forever exiting the map.
When a dungeon crawler is light on story it usually means they're leaving the player with their imagination to create their story. The numbers presented by the game is meant to be interpreted by the player, not just as stats, but also as a tale. Whenever I make a character in a dungeon crawler, I enjoy imagining their situations, their reactions when they open a treasure chests, the chats they make in the inn before they rest to their next adventure, the feeling they have when they encounter a difficult obstacle and worked together to clear it, where they learn more about each other and how well they as a party team up so well.
A dungeon crawler party's tale is just bland without some hardships. So if they manage to defeat powerful foes and lived to tell the tale back in town, that would make me happy. My personal opinion on why I like dungeon crawls at least.
and that is why i am a sadist
When a dungeon crawler is light on story it usually means they're leaving the player with their imagination to create their story. The numbers presented by the game is meant to be interpreted by the player, not just as stats, but also as a tale. Whenever I make a character in a dungeon crawler, I enjoy imagining their situations, their reactions when they open a treasure chests, the chats they make in the inn before they rest to their next adventure, the feeling they have when they encounter a difficult obstacle and worked together to clear it, where they learn more about each other and how well they as a party team up so well.
A dungeon crawler party's tale is just bland without some hardships. So if they manage to defeat powerful foes and lived to tell the tale back in town, that would make me happy. My personal opinion on why I like dungeon crawls at least.
and that is why i am a sadist
RyaReisender
200
I'm quite a bit into this genre and actually wished more people would make such games. My favorite game of the genre is Shining in the Darkness, it basically is THE perfect dungeon crawler for me. But I also like the Wizardry 1-3 remakes released for SNES and Arcana is also quite nice. Oh and Legend of Grimrock was enjoyable too. And I guess Sword of Vermillion and Phantasy Star I though they are hybrids (normal RPG combined with dungeon crawler).
Anyway, what I like in dungeon crawlers:
- they should be GRID BASED, no discussion
- there should be a way to view a top-down map of your surrounding somehow (doesn't need to be unlimited)
- there should be a way to instantly escape the dungeon and get back to town
- there should be town hub where you can sell and buy equipments and items and maybe has some story going on (like meeting other adventurers who were in the dungeon and heard something strange, stuff like that that helps with possible puzzles)
- possibility to save anywhere (especially when the game is hard or has instant-death traps)
- unique locations and interesting spots to note... these can be small things like water puddles so you are like "oh yeah this is the long floor with the puddle and not that other long floor", but should also contain puzzle rooms or rooms that look unique; and also regions or tiles that have certain effect (visible pits, hidden pits, damaging floor, floor sucking out your magic, floor that makes casting impossible, just something that keeps the game interesting later into the game)
- surprises! like unexpected encounters that are not just random encounters (like a boss crawling out behind the wall or you meet another adventurer, etc.)
- spells, any good dungeon crawler needs interesting spells
- turn based battle system, I don't really like real time battles in my dungeon crawlers
- challenging difficulty, no dungeon crawler is good if there is no sense of running out of resources or risk of death (to keep it casual anyway there is the save-anywhere and the exit-spell features)
- non-linear multi-layered dungeon structure, it should include pits where you fall down and have to find your way back up for example, not just "clear floor 1" and "clear floor 2" and then "clear floor 3", that's boring, it's more interesting if you go to down a few floors, then back up to get to another region of that first floor and so on; with unlinear I mean multiple places to go and possibly multiple possible paths, not just one linear correct path and the rest is just dead-ends
- treasure chests!
- shortcuts! that means if you reach a certain part of the dungeon you find some way to unlock a shortcut so the next time you venture into the dungeon you can get there faster, this could be thanks to finding a key, but also more interesting things like an orb that lets you fight against a certain wall (SitD) or even an elevator (Wizardry), it's no fun having to walk the same path again and again everytime you escaped back to the town
What I don't like:
- if the dungeon crawler is missing anything on the "like" list, yeah those things are pretty much mandatory for me to enjoy the game
- please no "DRAW YOUR OWN MAP" thing, the system should draw it automatically (of course only showing tiles I've already been on)
- no "create your own heroes" stuff, I prefer a fixed party and a story-driven game, also having to roll your characters at the beginning of a game is always so overwhelming, I really don't like bothering with builds and stuff, this ruins most games for me (though I'm fine if it's an optional feature), I liked in Shining in the Darkness, Arcana and Wizardry that the character growth is basically not in your power
- single hero, I don't really like dungeon crawlers where you only play a single hero, it usually makes combat boring, I rather have a party of 3-6 people
- not being able to see if there is a wall left/right of you or not; you should be able to see the "edge" of the wall to determine that there is a free tile or a wall left/right of you, Wizardry and Shining in the Darkness did that right but in several other games it really bothered me that you had to turn around to see if there is a wall there or not
- invisible objects until you are standing on the exactly same tile; this is something bothering me in many dungeon crawlers, often you just see walls and floor unless you walk on an event tile and then suddenly it does "bling, you found a treasure chest" or "bling, you found a switch", this is super annoying, I want to be able to see the options even when I'm not standing on the exact tile there are on, like if there is a treasure chest 2 tiles in front of me I want to see it; it also should look realistic and not just a flying treasure chest or switch mid-air
- light system, I'm not very fond of it as in if you don't use your torch item or the light spell you won't see much, it forces you to walk through the dungeons in the dark most of the time because you don't want to waste MP or keep backtracking to restock on torches all the time, in the end it feels like "let's display the graphics in worse than they actually are because we like to punish players for conserving their resources" (I'm fine with "you can't see anything here" areas, though, if they aren't too big)
- too high encounter rate, I do like my random encounters (though I'm open for other approaches, but please no "limited monsters only" because that makes backtracking too boring and you can't even grind if that next boss is too hard for you), but in dungeon crawlers there is a lot of walking into dead ends an stuff and the developers often don't realize that they walk the dungeons much more effectively than other people and set the encounter rate to something they thing as acceptable, but often it ends up being too high... an encounter every 3-5 steps is just too much, it's fine if sometimes there are two encounters in row, but there should also be times where you can explore quite a bit without one like for example every 3-30 steps (if turning around doesn't count as step then maybe 3-15); oh and don't reset the encounter "counter" on floor changes, I always find it silly that I won't get encounters in section that have lots of stairs and pits
Optional:
- rare drops, in Wizardry it's nice getting something rare, but in for example Legend of Grimrock where all items are 100% fixed that was fine for me too
- indoor / outdoor combinations; this is a very nice-to-have but not mandatory, for example if you are in a tower-like dungeon and you get outdoor and walk around the tower there, or if the dungeon is combined with a mountain, maybe you travel a small part on that mountain, it's quite overwhelming after walking inside a dark dungeon for a while to see the sky, I love that
- fear of being lost, for example entering a region where your map suddenly doesn't work anymore, often this feel very "bad" at first, but when you actually figure out where to go, it is a great feeling
Okay that's all that comes to mind for now.
Anyway, what I like in dungeon crawlers:
- they should be GRID BASED, no discussion
- there should be a way to view a top-down map of your surrounding somehow (doesn't need to be unlimited)
- there should be a way to instantly escape the dungeon and get back to town
- there should be town hub where you can sell and buy equipments and items and maybe has some story going on (like meeting other adventurers who were in the dungeon and heard something strange, stuff like that that helps with possible puzzles)
- possibility to save anywhere (especially when the game is hard or has instant-death traps)
- unique locations and interesting spots to note... these can be small things like water puddles so you are like "oh yeah this is the long floor with the puddle and not that other long floor", but should also contain puzzle rooms or rooms that look unique; and also regions or tiles that have certain effect (visible pits, hidden pits, damaging floor, floor sucking out your magic, floor that makes casting impossible, just something that keeps the game interesting later into the game)
- surprises! like unexpected encounters that are not just random encounters (like a boss crawling out behind the wall or you meet another adventurer, etc.)
- spells, any good dungeon crawler needs interesting spells
- turn based battle system, I don't really like real time battles in my dungeon crawlers
- challenging difficulty, no dungeon crawler is good if there is no sense of running out of resources or risk of death (to keep it casual anyway there is the save-anywhere and the exit-spell features)
- non-linear multi-layered dungeon structure, it should include pits where you fall down and have to find your way back up for example, not just "clear floor 1" and "clear floor 2" and then "clear floor 3", that's boring, it's more interesting if you go to down a few floors, then back up to get to another region of that first floor and so on; with unlinear I mean multiple places to go and possibly multiple possible paths, not just one linear correct path and the rest is just dead-ends
- treasure chests!
- shortcuts! that means if you reach a certain part of the dungeon you find some way to unlock a shortcut so the next time you venture into the dungeon you can get there faster, this could be thanks to finding a key, but also more interesting things like an orb that lets you fight against a certain wall (SitD) or even an elevator (Wizardry), it's no fun having to walk the same path again and again everytime you escaped back to the town
What I don't like:
- if the dungeon crawler is missing anything on the "like" list, yeah those things are pretty much mandatory for me to enjoy the game
- please no "DRAW YOUR OWN MAP" thing, the system should draw it automatically (of course only showing tiles I've already been on)
- no "create your own heroes" stuff, I prefer a fixed party and a story-driven game, also having to roll your characters at the beginning of a game is always so overwhelming, I really don't like bothering with builds and stuff, this ruins most games for me (though I'm fine if it's an optional feature), I liked in Shining in the Darkness, Arcana and Wizardry that the character growth is basically not in your power
- single hero, I don't really like dungeon crawlers where you only play a single hero, it usually makes combat boring, I rather have a party of 3-6 people
- not being able to see if there is a wall left/right of you or not; you should be able to see the "edge" of the wall to determine that there is a free tile or a wall left/right of you, Wizardry and Shining in the Darkness did that right but in several other games it really bothered me that you had to turn around to see if there is a wall there or not
- invisible objects until you are standing on the exactly same tile; this is something bothering me in many dungeon crawlers, often you just see walls and floor unless you walk on an event tile and then suddenly it does "bling, you found a treasure chest" or "bling, you found a switch", this is super annoying, I want to be able to see the options even when I'm not standing on the exact tile there are on, like if there is a treasure chest 2 tiles in front of me I want to see it; it also should look realistic and not just a flying treasure chest or switch mid-air
- light system, I'm not very fond of it as in if you don't use your torch item or the light spell you won't see much, it forces you to walk through the dungeons in the dark most of the time because you don't want to waste MP or keep backtracking to restock on torches all the time, in the end it feels like "let's display the graphics in worse than they actually are because we like to punish players for conserving their resources" (I'm fine with "you can't see anything here" areas, though, if they aren't too big)
- too high encounter rate, I do like my random encounters (though I'm open for other approaches, but please no "limited monsters only" because that makes backtracking too boring and you can't even grind if that next boss is too hard for you), but in dungeon crawlers there is a lot of walking into dead ends an stuff and the developers often don't realize that they walk the dungeons much more effectively than other people and set the encounter rate to something they thing as acceptable, but often it ends up being too high... an encounter every 3-5 steps is just too much, it's fine if sometimes there are two encounters in row, but there should also be times where you can explore quite a bit without one like for example every 3-30 steps (if turning around doesn't count as step then maybe 3-15); oh and don't reset the encounter "counter" on floor changes, I always find it silly that I won't get encounters in section that have lots of stairs and pits
Optional:
- rare drops, in Wizardry it's nice getting something rare, but in for example Legend of Grimrock where all items are 100% fixed that was fine for me too
- indoor / outdoor combinations; this is a very nice-to-have but not mandatory, for example if you are in a tower-like dungeon and you get outdoor and walk around the tower there, or if the dungeon is combined with a mountain, maybe you travel a small part on that mountain, it's quite overwhelming after walking inside a dark dungeon for a while to see the sky, I love that
- fear of being lost, for example entering a region where your map suddenly doesn't work anymore, often this feel very "bad" at first, but when you actually figure out where to go, it is a great feeling
Okay that's all that comes to mind for now.
I second the notion about being able to access an instant (or near-instant) escape to town. My thoughts move to the Might and Magic series, and it's Lloyd's Beacon spell (which I have emulated, to a degree, in VX/VX Ace), but it that is not the only way to go about it.
Well, thanks for the feedback everybody. After reading it all, and looking at what would be easy to implement in RMVXAce without too much scripting, I'm thinking the following:
-Grid-based top-down movement (the default setting of RPG Maker! How convenient!)
-Rare drops from normal enemies, and semi-random chests (Example: it will always give gold, but the amount is random)
-Save points on every floor, with maybe a checkpoint on the larger ones, and the ability to warp to every nth floor of the dungeon as you get to it, with the later warp points having less floors between them
-Story-driven, with pre-set characters
-Customization via skill trees and class changing, skill points are gained through leveling up
-Town outside of the dungeon, with optional quests and little event scenes here and there
-Trick/trap floors, pits, forced movement tiles, etc.
-Mostly random encounters, with some event tiles having battles, and powerful enemies and bosses being represented on the map, so they could be avoided (the enemies, not the bosses) or have a floor where getting through without getting killed is based on watching their movement patterns. You could return to the floor later and kill them for their items.
-Escape spells and items, or items that create a temporary warp point.
-Shortcuts
I like the flow of ideas and examples that came from everybody. I hadn't even thought of an indoor/outdoor combination. I had thought about using a tower as the dungeon, so that seems like a high possibility as you get closer to the top. I'm also aiming to be opposite of games like Final Fantasy where bosses were immune to effect spells. Of course some bosses are going to be immune to some things, but for the most part, you can put them to sleep or poison them, etc.
-Grid-based top-down movement (the default setting of RPG Maker! How convenient!)
-Rare drops from normal enemies, and semi-random chests (Example: it will always give gold, but the amount is random)
-Save points on every floor, with maybe a checkpoint on the larger ones, and the ability to warp to every nth floor of the dungeon as you get to it, with the later warp points having less floors between them
-Story-driven, with pre-set characters
-Customization via skill trees and class changing, skill points are gained through leveling up
-Town outside of the dungeon, with optional quests and little event scenes here and there
-Trick/trap floors, pits, forced movement tiles, etc.
-Mostly random encounters, with some event tiles having battles, and powerful enemies and bosses being represented on the map, so they could be avoided (the enemies, not the bosses) or have a floor where getting through without getting killed is based on watching their movement patterns. You could return to the floor later and kill them for their items.
-Escape spells and items, or items that create a temporary warp point.
-Shortcuts
I like the flow of ideas and examples that came from everybody. I hadn't even thought of an indoor/outdoor combination. I had thought about using a tower as the dungeon, so that seems like a high possibility as you get closer to the top. I'm also aiming to be opposite of games like Final Fantasy where bosses were immune to effect spells. Of course some bosses are going to be immune to some things, but for the most part, you can put them to sleep or poison them, etc.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Usually the main point of a dungeon crawler is to not have any plot, so that you can focus on gameplay.
The worst side-effect of them, for me, is that there's so little variety. You don't have short areas and long areas. You don't have a zone that's just a gauntlet of six battles with a boss at the end. Your team stays the same for the whole game; the way the dungeons are structured generally prevents you from ever taking power away from the player, or giving him temporary power.
Dungeon crawlers are just inherently more repetitive than other types of RPGs. So you need ways to counteract this. Heavy use of randomness is often helpful - something as simple as randomizing enemy groups instead of having set ones can triple or quadruple the number of battles it takes before the player is done with the area. You may want events that randomly occur inside the dungeons, random chests, randomly placed FOEs, etc. The more times something happens, the randomer it has to be to stay interesting. There's a reason so many dungeon crawlers are roguelikes, with randomly generated dungeons. I guess you could also make "fake" randomness - things that trigger after you've done something X times, or based on some other criteria.
The worst side-effect of them, for me, is that there's so little variety. You don't have short areas and long areas. You don't have a zone that's just a gauntlet of six battles with a boss at the end. Your team stays the same for the whole game; the way the dungeons are structured generally prevents you from ever taking power away from the player, or giving him temporary power.
Dungeon crawlers are just inherently more repetitive than other types of RPGs. So you need ways to counteract this. Heavy use of randomness is often helpful - something as simple as randomizing enemy groups instead of having set ones can triple or quadruple the number of battles it takes before the player is done with the area. You may want events that randomly occur inside the dungeons, random chests, randomly placed FOEs, etc. The more times something happens, the randomer it has to be to stay interesting. There's a reason so many dungeon crawlers are roguelikes, with randomly generated dungeons. I guess you could also make "fake" randomness - things that trigger after you've done something X times, or based on some other criteria.
amerk
2539
I've played a one dungeon crawler that actually implemented a decent story throughout. At least I assumed it was a dungeon crawler because the game primarily took place in one massive dungeon, full of puzzles, with limited resources, and no villages or outside world map to venture through; but there was a story to go alone with it that was fairly well written.
However, I typically stay away from dungeon crawlers because I'm a sucker for a good stories and, as LockeZ pointed out, most dungeon crawlers have little to no plot.
However, I typically stay away from dungeon crawlers because I'm a sucker for a good stories and, as LockeZ pointed out, most dungeon crawlers have little to no plot.
Addit
6394
I’m not the biggest fan of dungeon crawlers. Actually, if I had a choice between playing the new Call Of Duty game or play a dungeon crawler, like Etrian Odyssey – I’d choose the shooter, and I hate most shooters (‘cept Goldeneye)!
But then again, my experience has been very limited. Other than the old PC dungeon crawlers and Breath Of Fire V for the PS2 (eww), that’s all I’ve played. So if you can make a dungeon crawler that can wow me both graphically and by a gameplay sort of stance, then I might be a changed Addit. I dunno, I guess you could it make it kind of fun…
But then again, my experience has been very limited. Other than the old PC dungeon crawlers and Breath Of Fire V for the PS2 (eww), that’s all I’ve played. So if you can make a dungeon crawler that can wow me both graphically and by a gameplay sort of stance, then I might be a changed Addit. I dunno, I guess you could it make it kind of fun…
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Breath of Fire 5 isn't honestly a dungeon crawler. Lack of towns alone doesn't make an RPG a dungeon crawler. There's no dungeon-diving and exploring and then returning to a safe spot, and then going in again and taking a different path and gathering as much stuff as possible before you run out of MP. There's just one trek from the beginning of the game to the end. And it also lacks the typical repetitive rigid dungeon structure that most dungeon crawlers have. It's got more in common with Final Fantasy 13 than it does with any dungeon crawler I can name. (I can totally understand hating it though.)
I mean, honestly, there's a reason why "dungeon crawler" to most people is just a pejorative term meaning "RPG that introduces everything at the beginning, and then has you keep doing that stuff over and over for a hundred hours." I mean, shit, that's almost the legit definition even if you enjoy them. The kinds of people who enjoy dungeon crawlers typically are annoyed by things like towns and cut scenes, because they just interrupt the game. And they're also annoyed by things like controlling a different set of characters or being temporarily stuck in an area, because if they're enjoying a game, they want to keep playing the same thing they're already enjoying, not be forced to play something different. They wanna be able to tell in the first half hour what the game is gonna be, and then they wanna decide if they like it, and then if they like it they wanna keep playing it forever.
I mean, honestly, there's a reason why "dungeon crawler" to most people is just a pejorative term meaning "RPG that introduces everything at the beginning, and then has you keep doing that stuff over and over for a hundred hours." I mean, shit, that's almost the legit definition even if you enjoy them. The kinds of people who enjoy dungeon crawlers typically are annoyed by things like towns and cut scenes, because they just interrupt the game. And they're also annoyed by things like controlling a different set of characters or being temporarily stuck in an area, because if they're enjoying a game, they want to keep playing the same thing they're already enjoying, not be forced to play something different. They wanna be able to tell in the first half hour what the game is gonna be, and then they wanna decide if they like it, and then if they like it they wanna keep playing it forever.
author=LockeZ
Usually the main point of a dungeon crawler is to not have any plot, so that you can focus on gameplay.
I honestly would feel like that's a RogueLike. the SMT series are technically dungeon crawlers with a plot.
RyaReisender
200
I think the trick is to do a minimalistic but great story. Shining in the Darkness does this to perfection in my opinion. The dungeon part of the game really focuses on gameplay and gameplay only (except for two bosses at the end). Even most boss encounters and puzzle solutions don't contain any dialogues. Usually all the story is done by going back to town or the castle and then telling the people there about what you saw in the dungeon and they will react to it. It really makes you feel all alone in that dungeon.
Another way for a good dungeon crawler story is to have no dialogues at all, but slightly hint on what is happening by letting the player find notes from previous adventurers (this is also often done in horror adventure games).
A minimalistic story can be great.
Regarding randomness... actually I'd say dungeon crawlers do NOT have randomly generated dungeons. One feature that qualifies dungeon crawlers is that the dungeon is not random but fixed. Randomly generated dungeons would make them roguelikes.
Also, as a fact - there actually are hardly any randomly generated 3D grid based games at all.
Please refer to this thread I created a rogue temple some months ago (in particular the replies): http://forums.roguetemple.com/index.php?topic=3457.0
Disadvantages of random generated dungeons is mainly that the dungeon might end up being to simple (finding the correct way) or they just look "scrabbled together" and don't make physically sense. Also it's very hard to put in complex puzzles in this case (if you ever played Legend of Grimrock, those puzzles are hella hard and would never be possible in a randomly generated environment). Of course you could be semi-random and prepare fixed 20x20 tile sections and then randomly put those together, but not sure how that works out.
Advantages of random generated dungeons is of course the replay value, that's why I created that Wizardry-like roguelike thread. It's just the wish to be able to play a game of this type forever. Of course if it's just random floors and random encounters it would go boring fast, so it needs to be really well designed.
Another way for a good dungeon crawler story is to have no dialogues at all, but slightly hint on what is happening by letting the player find notes from previous adventurers (this is also often done in horror adventure games).
A minimalistic story can be great.
Regarding randomness... actually I'd say dungeon crawlers do NOT have randomly generated dungeons. One feature that qualifies dungeon crawlers is that the dungeon is not random but fixed. Randomly generated dungeons would make them roguelikes.
Also, as a fact - there actually are hardly any randomly generated 3D grid based games at all.
Please refer to this thread I created a rogue temple some months ago (in particular the replies): http://forums.roguetemple.com/index.php?topic=3457.0
Disadvantages of random generated dungeons is mainly that the dungeon might end up being to simple (finding the correct way) or they just look "scrabbled together" and don't make physically sense. Also it's very hard to put in complex puzzles in this case (if you ever played Legend of Grimrock, those puzzles are hella hard and would never be possible in a randomly generated environment). Of course you could be semi-random and prepare fixed 20x20 tile sections and then randomly put those together, but not sure how that works out.
Advantages of random generated dungeons is of course the replay value, that's why I created that Wizardry-like roguelike thread. It's just the wish to be able to play a game of this type forever. Of course if it's just random floors and random encounters it would go boring fast, so it needs to be really well designed.
I'm definitely not looking at making a rogue-like, so random dungeons aren't going to be a problem. As for the story, I'm thinking it'll be about as prevalent and involved as Resonance of Fate/End of Eternity's story was. There's a general plot, but you piece it together yourself, and a lot of the immersion comes from idle chit-chat between characters, and the story would only appear at the beginning of new chapters (or in the case of a dungeon crawler, floors/zones). I don't plan on restricting access to any floors or zones too much, with the exception of maybe bonus floors or post-story areas. The player will be able to move through freely, restricted only by their skill level, unless the next zone has a major relation to the story or a major quest. The first few floors would be easy and have little difficulty change, but towards the fourth or fifth floor (or more/less, depending on how small/large the maps get), there would be an obvious increase in difficulty.
As for the central hub, looking at all the examples everybody has given, it'll probably be a small city made up of a few exterior zones, then major buildings and shops, with a few houses here and there. NPCs would say things and offer quests depending on which floor the player is on, with various shops changing their stock based on dungeon progress or quests completed. Grinding would be encouraged to get more skill points, but not entirely necessary, by having stat increasing items dropped by enemies or available for purchase.
I love community feedback.
As for the central hub, looking at all the examples everybody has given, it'll probably be a small city made up of a few exterior zones, then major buildings and shops, with a few houses here and there. NPCs would say things and offer quests depending on which floor the player is on, with various shops changing their stock based on dungeon progress or quests completed. Grinding would be encouraged to get more skill points, but not entirely necessary, by having stat increasing items dropped by enemies or available for purchase.
I love community feedback.
RyaReisender
200
If you are putting in "Quests", make them either at least somewhat related to the main story or make them really interesting.
Those MMORPG-esque "we tell the player what he should do" sidequests are more annoying than helpful, then I'd rather explore the dungeon for the sake of exploration.
Those MMORPG-esque "we tell the player what he should do" sidequests are more annoying than helpful, then I'd rather explore the dungeon for the sake of exploration.
Addit
6394
author=LockeZ
Breath of Fire 5 isn't honestly a dungeon crawler.
‘Tis not?
What about the Ancient Cave in Lufia 2? Does that count?
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Ancient Cave is definitely closer, and certainly qualifies as a roguelike at least. I guess it's a dungeon crawler? My brain wants to tell me there's something wrong, but I'm pretty the only thing that's wrong is that it's embedded 20 hours into Lufia 2.
I'm not really sure how to properly define a dungeon crawler, I guess. It, uh, involves dungeon crawling, not just as a mechanic, but as a central mechanic that feels like a defining point of the game? Breath of Fire 5 doesn't; at least not any moreso than FF7.
I guess it's like pornography: you know it when you see it.
I'm not really sure how to properly define a dungeon crawler, I guess. It, uh, involves dungeon crawling, not just as a mechanic, but as a central mechanic that feels like a defining point of the game? Breath of Fire 5 doesn't; at least not any moreso than FF7.
I guess it's like pornography: you know it when you see it.
Personally I absolutely love Dungeon Crawlers.
Got my DS last week, together with Etrian Odissey and OH MAN
BUT the more quirks the best. My personal, gamer side says that minmaxing is the best way to go about dungeon crawlers. "classes" (choose a statset to increase at level up like Sword of Mana), bank system (together with (+1% money per level of dungeon explored), skill trees, item crafting, bestiaries, for me a dungeon crawler is all about the details. Being able to read about the monsters, the setting, etc is a huge plus, for it is actual story, except that it's optional, so suddenly the "terms" menu sounds actually better.
Uh, basically, how to create a dungeon crawler for me: Add in minmaxing, moody music, a nice setting, char dev and you're done. But hey, that's me
Got my DS last week, together with Etrian Odissey and OH MAN
BUT the more quirks the best. My personal, gamer side says that minmaxing is the best way to go about dungeon crawlers. "classes" (choose a statset to increase at level up like Sword of Mana), bank system (together with (+1% money per level of dungeon explored), skill trees, item crafting, bestiaries, for me a dungeon crawler is all about the details. Being able to read about the monsters, the setting, etc is a huge plus, for it is actual story, except that it's optional, so suddenly the "terms" menu sounds actually better.
Uh, basically, how to create a dungeon crawler for me: Add in minmaxing, moody music, a nice setting, char dev and you're done. But hey, that's me
Dungeon Crawlers just get boring. Even randomized ones like Dungeon of Dreadmore or whatever it is. Too much loot especially in games like Torchlight where everything seems trivial and a chore to equip when you just find different loot a second later.
RyaReisender
200
And I still think it's not a dungeon crawler if the dungeon is randomly generated. It's a roguelike then.
Proper dungeon crawlers don't get boring because:
- they aren't longer than 20 hours play time
- they offer a high variety of puzzles where the solution is completely different from the previous puzzles
- they keep introducing new mechanics that surprise the player (new field types, traps, ...)
- they constantly offer the feeling of danger and getting lost (a game that keeps you in the sense of danger doesn't get boring as fast than a game in which you've figured everything out already)
Proper dungeon crawlers don't get boring because:
- they aren't longer than 20 hours play time
- they offer a high variety of puzzles where the solution is completely different from the previous puzzles
- they keep introducing new mechanics that surprise the player (new field types, traps, ...)
- they constantly offer the feeling of danger and getting lost (a game that keeps you in the sense of danger doesn't get boring as fast than a game in which you've figured everything out already)
author=RyaReisender
- they offer a high variety of puzzles where the solution is completely different from the previous puzzles
- they keep introducing new mechanics that surprise the player (new field types, traps, ...)
Could you give some examples of puzzles or traps? That's probably my weakest point when it comes to dungeon design. I know the usual spikes, pitfalls/boost ups, and rock pushing puzzles, but I haven't really thought of a unique one yet.
