GAME DESIGN DISCUSSION OF THE WEEK: HEY ASSHOLES, STOP GIVING UP.

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I'm here to address one of the most absolute annoying, disappointing, and counterproductive flaws of the entire game making community.

Let's get to the point; the amateur game making community is plagued with people giving up on their projects. And I don't mean starting an unnamed project, and going "Yeah this sucks" 2 days later. I'm talking about projects with 2 demos, an established fanbase, and a noticiable presence in the community, and one day the creator comes out of nowhere; 'HEY THE GAME'S CANCELLED', or even worse, the creator completely falling off the face of the earth to never be seen again by anyone.

I'd like to curb that shit. And while I could have made a really cheesy, run of the mill 'Let's get motivated guys!' yes-man topic that everyone would nod their heads and completely forgot they read two days later, instead, I think it's time to step on some toes and hurt some feelings. I'm going to attack and dispel lame ass reasons why people give up on their games, and probably am going to offend a lot of people because these reasons are often cited and they seem pretty legitimate. Not today they aren't! Let's roll.

Why did you give up on your game?


1. I don't have time! I have a life you know!

Poor excuse, because guess what? Everyone has a life. Everyone has shit to do, everyone either has a job to go to, friends to hang out with, classes to study for, hos to pimp, bills to pay, chores to do, kids to take care of, whatever. Barring a major lifestyle change (i.e. being elected for President), you knew what your timeframe was going to be like. You knew you were going to college, you knew you were getting/needed a job, and you knew you had friends before you started this project that you got everyone looking forward to. So, you didn't know these things, or rather, you didn't know how much time it would consume out of your project? I say to you; time management! Seriously, it's not too hard to balance a game making project with even a busy lifestyle. Yeah, I know people like to go 'how dare you tell me how much time I have! Hmph!', but as a full time college student with a job, I'm pretty friggin busy, but with a little planning, it's not hard to work on a game if you're serious about it.


2. My project was erased from my computer!

Honestly this is one of the most bullshit excuses there is nowadays, because with all the data storing options out there, from CD's, online storage, to flash drives, getting your data completely wiped off the face of the Earth is your stupid, stupid fault. Do you have a project you've invested over a month in? Store that shit. Burn it on a CD, host it or store it somewhere, or buy a flash drive (seriously, you probably already have one, and if not, they're like 30 bucks, el cheapo). Losing a years worth of work was a common excuse maybe about five years ago, but it won't fly now. Besides, complete hard drive wipes don't happen that often. You ain't slick.

3. My project isn't what I originally envisioned it to be!

This is perfectly valid if you're just messing around in the program, showed a few screenshots, and maybe had a ten minute demo and you decided this. That's all well and good. But if your project has been ongoing for like a year, has a solid two or so demos, and you have legions of people actually waiting for your game and you pull that, you're an asshole. Plain and simple. That is a dick move. Don't do that. If it took you a year, a ten page hype topic, and a dedicated fanbase to figure out your game suddenly isn't what you wanted to be, you're an asshole. Yes, you have the right to do that, but you're still an asshole.

4. My project sucks and nobody likes it!

Now this depends on how much it 'sucks'. Does it really objectively suck? Does it suck on a developmental, graphical, and gameplay aspect? Do all of these areas suck? Because guess what; you can always get better. You can get better at mapping/graphics, you can get better at gameplay design, and you can get better at writing. These are malleable skills that can mature and grow. You may not be the best at any of them, hell, you may be just okay at all of them, but getting all sniffly because everyone pointed out the gaping flaws in your first game is just whiny. Instead of getting angry when people point out your shitty grammar for example, get better at it. It's really not that hard. And if you game doesn't really suck, and you're giving up because what, one or two people didn't like it; grow up. That's life.

5. This is too hard!

That's understandable to an extent, but guess what, even things that we do to dick around can be pretty challenging. A lot of people can't wrap their heads around a hobby actually being...dear me, hard, and they bail with the reasoning 'I DO THIS FOR FUN IT SHOULDN'T BE HARD'. Once again, I view this as a bitch move. Sometimes things are hard simply because you're working too hard instead of working smart. Address it. Sometimes things are too hard because you're not managing your time correctly. Address it. And sometimes things are too hard because they just are. Suck it up. I say this because amateur game design really isn't that hard. At least not hard to the point where the only way out is to completely give up. There's always an easier way.



In conclusion, many of the 'valid reasons' I've heard throughout my years to justify giving up on a longstanding project are pretty much bullshit. Now is there to say there is no valid reason for giving up on a game? Of course there is; after all, this isn't life and death. For example, you really, seriously may just not have any time at all (all of a sudden). But in the event that you do regrettably have to completely abandon all hope of finishing a project, do not just vanish off the face of the earth and refuse to be contacted by anyone. Have the guts to put yourself out there to the community and say; 'I really apologize, but I absolutely cannot finish this project. My deepest apologies to the fans and the people that helped me along the way, but I do thank everyone for sticking with me and I thank everyone who helped me out'.

Sometimes there really are valid reasons for giving up on a game. But if your game has been eagerly awaited by many, has an established presence, and probably won a Misao or two, you better think long and hard about it. While you, me, or anyone else is under no moral code or anything to finish a game making project, doing so for a lame reason, including but not limited to the above, you're probably going to make an asshole out of yourself that bitches out on projects.

Cheers!
harmonic
It's like toothpicks against a tank
4142
author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=1611.msg25440#msg25440 date=1217144383
Yeah, I know people like to go 'how dare you tell me how much time I have! Hmph!'

This part just made my day. :D

Great post. I really don't have anything more to add since you pretty much thought of everything. Just wanted to give props and I encourage folks to read the whole thing.
This seems like an article rather than a topic, because I have a hard time to come up with any sort of discussion you brought up within me.

I assume that one of the names you won't mention would be RealbrickRoad, but from what I understand he decided that having 20 fans wasn't enough to motivate him. I don't really blame him for that because the GW community seem to get tight about graphics rather than clever dungeon design (I'd even go to far as to say the RTP didn't strike some people enough to try it out).
Wow, I read the first post and I feel like
I just got owned...Badly.
But I do feel the same way as you
Feldschlacht. I wish someone would've
written this three years ago. It'dve
really helped me cope with.. Myself.


BLINDSIGHT, if you're out there,
READ THIS PRONTO.

~Sion
Serious game making discussion here.
While I completely agree with everything, I'm not going to go and call somebody an asshole for not completing a project. Badluck isn't an asshole for saying Ara Fell was not what he originally visioned, therefore scrapping the project. And I don't know anybody who actually vanished off the face of the earth without telling anybody. Well, maybe Inoran.

In my opinion, I could care less who finishes a project and who doesn't. Would it have been great if ABL was actually completed? I guess, but at the end of the day we should all just be putting something out there, complete or not. The community is plagued with advertisements and hype more so than actual demos(just look at the screenshot threads). I feel that as long as you at LEAST put something out there and show everybody what you worked on, there's no reason for you(the FANS) to complain. Most of you might disagree with me.

But yeah I completely agree with you on most of the stuff, and it sure would be great if there were more complete projects. I'm just saying that as long as you at least give something to the community, nobody should really be complaining. If there is a 10 page hype topic and nothing comes out of it, then yeah, that person is an asshole.

Nice article Feldschlacht IV. =)
Serious game making discussion here.
While I completely agree with everything, I'm not going to go and call somebody an asshole for not completing a project. Badluck isn't an asshole for saying Ara Fell was not what he originally visioned, therefore scrapping the project. And I don't know anybody who actually vanished off the face of the earth without telling anybody. Well, maybe Inoran.

No one's an asshole for simply not completing a project, but I do firmly believe in a community like ours where hype and not finishing what you started is almost a norm, adding to the cesspoll by just giving up for a dumb reason. Like I said, there are forgivable, excusable reasons for putting down a project. And yeah, I could probably think of about ten people just off the top of my head who pulled the vanishing trick.

In my opinion, I could care less who finishes a project and who doesn't. Would it have been great if ABL was actually completed? I guess, but at the end of the day we should all just be putting something out there, complete or not. The community is plagued with advertisements and hype more so than actual demos(just look at the screenshot threads). I feel that as long as you at LEAST put something out there and show everybody what you worked on, there's no reason for you(the FANS) to complain. Most of you might disagree with me

I agree to an extent. Take A Blurred Line, for instance. Even though I was really disappointed that it was never finished, Lysander did put a full first part out there. Yeah, it really sucks that he didn't finish, but I do admit that shit just does happen. I'm talking more along the lines of HEY GUESS WHAT I HAVE THIS AWESOME PROJECT HEY GUESS WHAT IT'S CANCELLED. Theoretically we should be glad that people at least put something out there, but in this community, it's getting pretty old to see people quit their work all the time. Yeah, yeah, you got a demo, that's great (seriously!). Now, can you actually finish your game?
Tau
RMN sex symbol
3293
author=Sion link=topic=1611.msg25456#msg25456 date=1217165866
BLINDSIGHT, if you're out there,
READ THIS PRONTO.
I don't know why you would single out someone like that considering he's actually released 3 significant versions of his game. Which is 3 more then what you have an without a team and however many topics you made at GW. Honestly even if you were joking not everyone will think it's in anyway funny or appropriate.

I read most of it(Had some funny moments haha) although I have yet to release anything significant from my own project(s) I think people shouldn't just release something when they have done enough for a demo but wait till they have made a certain amount of progress to know they can finish their own games.

Also should they cancel just release what they have done so if they lose it anyway it would all be their if the creator ever wanted to return. I do think it's sad that people just want to hype their games for the attention or just disappear without word after getting people excited for something they're making.

Am I an asshole? haha.. Don't quote that!
author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=1611.msg25440#msg25440 date=1217144383
2. My project was erased from my computer!
Yup, that's me :). Back in the time of my project, I was using a piece of shit old computer. I had to format the hard drive so I could switch it to my other computer (which was totally crashed, but in better shape than this one). Neither of these computers have had internet for a LOOOOOONG time, so that option is gone. The computer with my project on it had no CD burner. And the two usb ports on it, didn't work. Not to forget, I didn't have a flash drive, money, or a job. Yup, my project was fucked.
The topic has a pretty thorough list of accurate points, but I think you're definitely generalizing a lot of them. Developers typically can't afford to let A FAN-BASE govern their decisions and goals concerning a project, because ultimately I dare-say they really don't know what's best. It isn't selfish to put down something old in favor of a fresh, clean new start, if that's what the creator so chooses. If anything, I think it's the community that needs to be less demanding and uptight about what others decide to do; and be satisfied with the content they manage to get instead of being so utterly dispiriting. That attitude in and of itself is what's counterproductive.

With that said, I think what's most significant is the community's support regardless of choice. Sometimes-- unfortunately, a lot of the time-- people can be unfairly swayed to believe something that really isn't an actuality because of misunderstood criticism and the like. The real "asshole" is an individual who takes it beyond pure friendly critique and forces the developer to believe "giving up" is the only way to find success. =X
author=BlindSight link=topic=1611.msg25508#msg25508 date=1217212412
Developers typically can't afford to let A FAN-BASE govern their decisions and goals concerning a project, because ultimately I dare-say they really don't know what's best.

From this I'm getting a vivid picture of a fan holding the said developer at gun point. Really it's more in the case of the developer leading his fans off the cliff when they find out the full version/demo/next chapter is never going to come. Fans do decide what's best because they're the reason why the project got recognition in the first place. It doesn't matter if you intended the project to be a JUST FOR FUN PROJECT LOL, if people like it, they'll want more. If you can't provide that, well, you'd be kind of guilty.

I think it's the community that needs to be less demanding and uptight about what others decide to do; and be satisfied with the content they manage to get instead of being so utterly dispiriting. That attitude in and of itself it's what's counterproductive.

Lower our standards!? Preposterous!

But seriously, to me you seem to be driving towards the point where the fans decide what goes in the actual game. And where have people been being uptight about this? The only example I can think of is the starter post of this topic.
author=Darken link=topic=1611.msg25510#msg25510 date=1217214543
From this I'm getting a vivid picture of a fan holding the said developer at gun point. Really it's more in the case of the developer leading his fans off the cliff when they find out the full version/demo/next chapter is never going to come. Fans do decide what's best because they're the reason why the project got recognition in the first place. It doesn't matter if you intended the project to be a JUST FOR FUN PROJECT LOL, if people like it, they'll want more. If you can't provide that, well, you'd be kind of guilty.
You say this as though most RPGMaker games have an inherent obligation to be finished for reasons other than the creator's own gratification. =/

author=Darken link=topic=1611.msg25510#msg25510 date=1217214543
But seriously, to me you seem to be driving towards the point where the fans decide what goes in the actual game. And where have people been being uptight about this? The only example I can think of is the starter post of this topic.
Well, I can only argue this from my own experience, but the notion of developers taking influence from the silly trends and pretentious conventions of their community is more than common. I can name to you dozens of project elements that have become contrived checklist items, and that's just no way to make a game.
author=BlindSight link=topic=1611.msg25512#msg25512 date=1217216033
You say this as though most RPGMaker games have an inherent obligation to be finished for reasons other than the creator's own gratification. =/

Are you going to be happy for finishing a project that no one knows exists?
Unless it's your life to make games, your absolute mantra and one true love in life, it really shouldn't matter what others think about your hobby, as that's what anything that's not your life pretty much is. Whether people love it, like it, or hate it, it really shouldn't. Of course, it always does, because as humans we love a little positive reinforcement, a little recognition.

But honestly, it's just a hobby. You make it for your gratification, not for the edification of others. That's what gamemaking for a living is supposed to do. Me, personally, if I'm happy with it, and I think it's done, then I'll upload it somewhere, and if someone finds it and likes it, sure, that's a coin in my hat. If not, I'm fine with that too, because I'm happy with it. Sure, a little recognition would be a nice thing, but because it's a hobby it isn't like I'm going to kill myself to get some recognition or whatever.

Again, if you're happy with it, that's all that should matter for a hobby.
author=Darken link=topic=1611.msg25513#msg25513 date=1217216751
Are you going to be happy for finishing a project that no one knows exists?
You misunderstand me. I haven't once claimed the player to be an irrelevance, but if you end up catering your entire endeavor toward appeasing them, what purpose remains? Community fame? Believe me when I say it's seldom in the interest of said project to surrender its integrity for that laughable bullshit; amateur, professional or otherwise.

(Again, I apologize if I seem to be professing my own experience as the norm-- but generally speaking, I've observed it as quite the common occurrence!)
author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=1611.msg25440#msg25440 date=1217144383
1. I don't have time! I have a life you know!

... you knew what your timeframe was going to be like.

Yes, because I can look into the future and magically determine what unexpected events will occur, how far off any estimations are, and calculate how long it takes to do work.

My entire last University semester involved me spending almost every weekend on campus doing a group project for a course. Several nights involved staying up until the sun came up, getting a few hours of sleep, and doing it all over again. None of my group members thought that it would take so long to finish. If I could've done some magic voodoo to know this please tell me where I can learn this sacred technique and I'll give you a kidney, my firstborn, and a blowjob.


author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=1611.msg25440#msg25440 date=1217144383
2. My project was erased from my computer!
I mostly agree, but half the time 'vistims' sounds like an excuse of "I don't feel like working on it anymore" without trying to lose too much face. There's no backup utility in the world that can fight that.

Other cases are when people have the aura of invinsibility, that it only happens to computer illiterate people, the odds of it happening are very low, (or the odd case of stupid backup methods, like copying the game onto the same computer) ect. They really should know better, but that's a different topic.

There's also when poor/infrequent backup methods and a loss of data result in lost work. Loss of motivation is proportional to data lost.


author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=1611.msg25440#msg25440 date=1217144383
3. My project isn't what I originally envisioned it to be!

I never heard this one. It sounds more like "im not getting enuf fives u suck u fags", "i hate my team there fags", or "too much wurk". The first two is the creator being an idiot and deserving to be punched in the face, but the third is more likely due to feature creep or inability to implement said features. More on that later.

(Seriously, if you're solo, how do you lose what you want the game to be?)


author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=1611.msg25440#msg25440 date=1217144383
4. My project sucks and nobody likes it!

You're actually quitting because your only source of motivation is other's people praise. If you can only make a game with people patting your back all the time, you'll never finish. The average attention span isn't as long as the time it takes to develop a game that people will be praising you with 'fives' and whatnot. Make a game that you enjoy making or don't bother starting.

(Yes, its a lame excuse but its more likely to be an honest one. If it is an honest excuse, then the creator would quit sooner or later.)


author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=1611.msg25440#msg25440 date=1217144383
5. This is too hard!

... you're working too hard instead of working smart. Address it. Sometimes things are too hard because you're not managing your time correctly. Address it.

This reeks of a manager's answer to when software development timetables aren't kept. Software development, and by extention game development, is very complicated and its easy to make unmaintainable software by incompitence/inexperience. Think about all those games with CBS/CMS which never got anywhere. I'd bet the number one reason that they never did was because of the horrible hack jobs that most of them were. Making changes or additional content would require hours of work because they were designed on the fly which translates to incredibly piss poor. It gets worse if this is the first or second time they've tried something so complicated. If they're using something thats like a step up from Assembly like Rm2k(3) then the odds of survival drop like a plane in a nosedive.

This isn't limited to just game development. Real software development written by professionals (with varying degrees in education) suffer from the same problem of bad design. Bugs, doesn't operate to specified requirements, ect. Its a real problem in the professional world and its only going to be worse for teenagers using RPG Maker.


There's also feature creep, which is where developers have a list of features the size of their arm that they want to implement. All of it, up to Super Fantastic Realistic Blinking with Phong Shading. Then during development they get more features to add, and it keeps piling up. They've got more features than what they know what to do with all for the sake of having "teh 1337est game evar". Now there's the fact that the quality of each feature is proportional to time spent on it. So you've got scores of features that you want to implement, and doing it right will take a very, very, long time. So now you need to do a huge list of features properly. Combine this with the above issues and add in how long it will take to do. Not only is it hard to design+implement everything, it'll take forever and be a huge motivation killer.



author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=1611.msg25440#msg25440 date=1217144383
But if your game has been eagerly awaited by many, has an established presence, and probably won a Misao or two, you better think long and hard about it.
Honestly, if I was making a game that people were looking forward to but I couldn't motivate myself to continue working on it, I would drop it. I make stuff for myself first and the fans second. It sounds selfish but if I hate working on it and all I'm getting out of it is 'fives' and pats on the back, I'd much rather quit and do something I enjoy. I would announce it to give the project closure though. It means everybody can move on without waiting. Quitting and disapearing is an incredibly dickish move and anybody who does it needs to be punched in the face.

(I've done it before on a different project. I really do think I deserve a punch in the face for it, although I did slightly redeem myself by helping out when the project was revived again. I was so ashamed by my vanishing act I asked that I was helping wouldn't be revealed until the project was completed.)


*edit*
author=Darken link=topic=1611.msg25513#msg25513 date=1217216751
Are you going to be happy for finishing a project that no one knows exists?
I've done this plenty of times. I loved making games in ZZT and Megazeux. Did anyone else every play them? With one possible exception, no. I still loved doing it though and I wish I still had some of those projects around today.
Yes, because I can look into the future and magically determine what unexpected events will occur, how far off any estimations are, and calculate how long it takes to do work.

My entire last University semester involved me spending almost every weekend on campus doing a group project for a course. Several nights involved staying up until the sun came up, getting a few hours of sleep, and doing it all over again. None of my group members thought that it would take so long to finish. If I could've done some magic voodoo to know this please tell me where I can learn this sacred technique and I'll give you a kidney, my firstborn, and a blowjob.

Keep in mind that there are exceptions, I just doubt this applies to the hundreds of times I've heard this.

I never heard this one. It sounds more like "im not getting enuf fives u suck u fags", "i hate my team there fags", or "too much wurk". The first two is the creator being an idiot and deserving to be punched in the face, but the third is more likely due to feature creep or inability to implement said features. More on that later.

(Seriously, if you're solo, how do you lose what you want the game to be?)

It's a rarer one, but I've heard it a few times.


There's also feature creep, which is where developers have a list of features the size of their arm that they want to implement. All of it, up to Super Fantastic Realistic Blinking with Phong Shading. Then during development they get more features to add, and it keeps piling up. They've got more features than what they know what to do with all for the sake of having "teh 1337est game evar". Now there's the fact that the quality of each feature is proportional to time spent on it. So you've got scores of features that you want to implement, and doing it right will take a very, very, long time. So now you need to do a huge list of features properly. Combine this with the above issues and add in how long it will take to do. Not only is it hard to design+implement everything, it'll take forever and be a huge motivation killer.

Yeah, quite a few articles have been written on this.

Honestly, if I was making a game that people were looking forward to but I couldn't motivate myself to continue working on it, I would drop it. I make stuff for myself first and the fans second. It sounds selfish but if I hate working on it and all I'm getting out of it is 'fives' and pats on the back, I'd much rather quit and do something I enjoy.

(I've done it before on a different project. I really do think I deserve a punch in the face for it, although I did slightly redeem myself by helping out when the project was revived again. I was so ashamed by my vanishing act I asked that I was helping wouldn't be revealed until the project was completed.)

This is true, but it's still very disappointing. However, the creator reserves the right to do so.

I would announce it to give the project closure though. It means everybody can move on without waiting. Quitting and disapearing is an incredibly dickish move and anybody who does it needs to be punched in the face.

Yes.
Ocean
Resident foodmonster
11991
author=Darken link=topic=1611.msg25513#msg25513 date=1217216751
Are you going to be happy for finishing a project that no one knows exists?
Yes, you could be. You can get a sense of accomplishment that you were able to finish the project, regardless of if anyone plays it or not. Of course, people giving you feedback on it, saying it was good and stuff helps a lot too.

I like to finish what I start, even if sometimes it does take a while. What I want to do is make a game, then try to outdo it with the next game. Or have it different enough so I learn something new. I have bunches of game ideas, and certainly the next one might look more attractive than the one you're currently working on.

But remember, you generally thought the same about the current project you started. There comes a point in the middle of the project where there is still a lot ahead of you, and you're doing the boring stuff rather than the fun planning and everything. That happens with every project. Try not to make the project too grand a scale if you know you aren't one to finish or like working on really big projects.

You can learn a lot by finishing a project.
This topic just reminds me about the whole culture of RM that we have here in the community, and how its so paradoxical. I used to be involved but now I just want to stay out of it and do my own thing. When it comes to working on games... its really not such a big that anyone should make time for it or devote anything other than residual interest into it for the simple fact that its a complete and utter diversion.

I don't tell many people about or flaunt what I'm working on because I don't care about what you guys think of my work anymore. When the time comes and I feel like someone else could enjoy it, I'll share it, but not advertise it, which is what I think the focus of the community should be. Its a place to share, not to market or encourage. This is just something I do to pass the time and sure some of it is pretty nifty but its not worth getting in knots over, and to be honest, I think that's all it really should be. So, I'll quit if I want, and every excuse to do so is legit.

And I'm not saying I'm better than everybody else for being that way... Oh wait, no, that's exactly what I'm saying. :-X
author=Blitzen link=topic=1611.msg25528#msg25528 date=1217219507
This topic just reminds me about the whole culture of RM that we have here in the community, and how its so paradoxical. I used to be involved but now I just want to stay out of it and do my own thing. When it comes to working on games... its really not such a big that anyone should make time for it or devote anything other than residual interest into it for the simple fact that its a complete and utter diversion.

I don't tell many people about or flaunt what I'm working on because I don't care about what you guys think of my work anymore. When the time comes and I feel like someone else could enjoy it, I'll share it, but not advertise it, which is what I think the focus of the community should be. Its a place to share, not to market or encourage. This is just something I do to pass the time and sure some of it is pretty nifty but its not worth getting in knots over, and to be honest, I think that's all it really should be. So, I'll quit if I want, and every excuse to do so is legit.

And I'm not saying I'm better than everybody else for being that way... Oh wait, no, that's exactly what I'm saying. :-X

That's all fine and good, but if everyone was like you (and believe me, there's NOTHING wrong with your viewpoint on it) we really wouldn't have much of a community. To me, part of the joy in this hobby is the community aspect; making, sharing, rating, and playing each others games. That is part of the fun for me. That's why I try to encourage things like the Play Something! events and the Blog Topic, because that's what being a part of the community is all about; being a part of the community!
Ah, but then there is the question as to weather or not he community is counterproductive to the process that the individual maker goes through instilling in them the culture of "show and tell and not much else" we have. With things as they are we should pose the question that maybe a maker working outside would have a more fufilling homebrew experience. Sometimes I wonder if the participation of the community in the process does more harm than good to the individual in thier pursuit to create something.
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