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Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
Red_Nova
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CloseWe all enjoy making the games that we love. Last night, I wondered what would happen if I made a game that I hated. For example: Since I hate grinding in RPGs, I was wondering what I would do if I was ever in a situation where I had to work on a grind-heavy RPG (like if I was in a team where my partner(s) enjoyed grinding).
I'm curious as to how you would handle such a situation. What if you had to work on a game that you hated but, for one reason or another, you could not go back and make any major revisions? It's an interesting exercise that should help you think outside the box and perhaps help you come up with some ideas that you can use in your own games!
Normal Mode: Design a game in a genre you like that includes 1-2 elements from your chosen genre that you hate.
Hard Mode: Design a game in a genre you like that includes 3+ elements from your genre that you gate.
EXTREME MODE: Design a game in a genre you hate including all the elements you hate!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll start us off:
Normal Mode: A dungeon crawler RPG with lots of grind and a monotonous, uninspired battle system.
How I'd do it: I would write a complex and intricate backstory and deep characters, both playable and NPCs. If players are interested in what's going on in the world, that would hopefully be on their minds while they slog through the dungeons. I would also implement questlines for each NPC that require revisiting them and seeing how they develop.
To get around the monotonous battles, I would do three things: A) add an AutoBattle option so players aren't slogged down by repeatedly selecting the same commands for each party member every battle. B) Make all battles generally easier. Monotonous and uninspired beat out broken and unplayable any day. C) Put more emphasis on stuff to do outside of battle, like solving puzzles or utilizing gadgets to make field movement more dynamic and interesting.
Hard Mode: An RPG with boring battles, lots of grind, and no strong storyline.
How I'd do it: Pretty much what I'd on Normal Mode, just without the story segment. To get over the story problem, I would allow players to create their own party, allowing them to choose names and classes for each member. Throughout the game, each character will have random lines to say at random times depending on their class, allowing players to have a more personal run through the game. Each class would also have an on-field ability to make traversal of dungeons easier. For example: A warrior could break down certain walls, while an archer could hit distant switches with a bow. This system would encourage high replay value because players can explore different parts of an area if they go through with a different party of classes.
Going one step further, I would implement a system similar to Etrian Odyssey's where you create individual characters whenever you wanted throughout the game.
EXTREME MODE: A puzzle game that's entire focus is on the puzzles. No story, no characters, no general tone. Just a list of puzzles to complete (the type of puzzles don't matter). For reference, have you ever played Polarium? That's the kind of game style I'm talking about.
How I'd do it: For this particular game, I'll use a Rubik's Cube puzzle design as the core concept. Each time a puzzle is solved, the screen will slowly start to fade to white, and then players will return to the puzzle selection list. This is important, as this fade to white is actually a different puzzle that players will solve later. As they work their way through the puzzles, players should eventually notice the solved cubes will have one single letter shown on it. These letters are actually a jumbled message that must be deciphered by players themselves.
Once the message is deciphered, players must solve any puzzle to invoke that white fade again. This time, though, players must type in the deciphered message before the game takes players back to the puzzle list. Doing this will open up another set of puzzles for players to solve, thereby increasing the game's content and variety by making players think outside the box a little bit.
... It's not amazing, but that's what I would do if I had to make a puzzle game using those restrictions.
I'm curious as to how you would handle such a situation. What if you had to work on a game that you hated but, for one reason or another, you could not go back and make any major revisions? It's an interesting exercise that should help you think outside the box and perhaps help you come up with some ideas that you can use in your own games!
Normal Mode: Design a game in a genre you like that includes 1-2 elements from your chosen genre that you hate.
Hard Mode: Design a game in a genre you like that includes 3+ elements from your genre that you gate.
EXTREME MODE: Design a game in a genre you hate including all the elements you hate!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll start us off:
Normal Mode: A dungeon crawler RPG with lots of grind and a monotonous, uninspired battle system.
How I'd do it: I would write a complex and intricate backstory and deep characters, both playable and NPCs. If players are interested in what's going on in the world, that would hopefully be on their minds while they slog through the dungeons. I would also implement questlines for each NPC that require revisiting them and seeing how they develop.
To get around the monotonous battles, I would do three things: A) add an AutoBattle option so players aren't slogged down by repeatedly selecting the same commands for each party member every battle. B) Make all battles generally easier. Monotonous and uninspired beat out broken and unplayable any day. C) Put more emphasis on stuff to do outside of battle, like solving puzzles or utilizing gadgets to make field movement more dynamic and interesting.
Hard Mode: An RPG with boring battles, lots of grind, and no strong storyline.
How I'd do it: Pretty much what I'd on Normal Mode, just without the story segment. To get over the story problem, I would allow players to create their own party, allowing them to choose names and classes for each member. Throughout the game, each character will have random lines to say at random times depending on their class, allowing players to have a more personal run through the game. Each class would also have an on-field ability to make traversal of dungeons easier. For example: A warrior could break down certain walls, while an archer could hit distant switches with a bow. This system would encourage high replay value because players can explore different parts of an area if they go through with a different party of classes.
Going one step further, I would implement a system similar to Etrian Odyssey's where you create individual characters whenever you wanted throughout the game.
EXTREME MODE: A puzzle game that's entire focus is on the puzzles. No story, no characters, no general tone. Just a list of puzzles to complete (the type of puzzles don't matter). For reference, have you ever played Polarium? That's the kind of game style I'm talking about.
How I'd do it: For this particular game, I'll use a Rubik's Cube puzzle design as the core concept. Each time a puzzle is solved, the screen will slowly start to fade to white, and then players will return to the puzzle selection list. This is important, as this fade to white is actually a different puzzle that players will solve later. As they work their way through the puzzles, players should eventually notice the solved cubes will have one single letter shown on it. These letters are actually a jumbled message that must be deciphered by players themselves.
Once the message is deciphered, players must solve any puzzle to invoke that white fade again. This time, though, players must type in the deciphered message before the game takes players back to the puzzle list. Doing this will open up another set of puzzles for players to solve, thereby increasing the game's content and variety by making players think outside the box a little bit.
... It's not amazing, but that's what I would do if I had to make a puzzle game using those restrictions.
LightningLord2
230
Normal Mode
An RPG that is heavily based on accuracy manipulation and uses unidentified items.
How I'd do it: For starters, I'd do five stats: Power (damage/healing of skills), Dexterity (accuracy), Speed (turn order + evasion), Vitality (life total) and Intelligence (side effect potency). Combat actions that target allies do not miss (unless it's an inherent part of the skill) and there's a costless skill named Support which lends a part of your stats to an ally for his action (he'll move up in turn order, hits harder and more likely...). Unidentified items are reflavored to be sealed - that is, their effects are locked until you keep using the item or applying an unsealing skill on it (Intelligence boosting the likelyhood of success). Consumables can have multiple effects, but they must have at least one effect unsealed to be used (with others being unsealed as you collect more of them).
Hard Mode
The above RPG, but also depending on dropfarming and using timed hits.
How I'd do it: Beating enemies fills up a treasure bar, which will guarantee a rare drop if it gets full from that fight (getting rare drops is impossible otherwise). Leaving an area will empty the bar. The bar can be filled more quickly by using an item in battle that boosts the power of enemies. Timed hits would be implemented by having a marker run across a slider, with accuracy increasing the size of the box you need to stop on to hit, same with enemy skills to dodge them. Non-damaging skills do not use this bar, but they can influence how it works (faster/slower marker, hit field is split up on the bar, adding extra effect fields on the bar...).
Extreme Mode
An FPS based on a war scenario with the typical 30-something white male protagonist design every game seems to use.
How I'd do it: I'll be kinda silly with how the protagonist acts - he feels the constant need to explain/demonstrate why he's manly to his allies, is irrational and violent and complains about lag/broken weapons/campers/etc. if you get shot down. So basically, he behaves like the typical audience of the games. You can often find very difficult shooting sections which can be made easier by simply taking a look around to either circumnavigate the section or to activate something that makes the fight easier (it's not explosive barrels). There's also a type of collectibles called "Developer's Notes" which make fun of silly plot decisions devs make.
Holy crap, now I actually want this game to be made.
An RPG that is heavily based on accuracy manipulation and uses unidentified items.
How I'd do it: For starters, I'd do five stats: Power (damage/healing of skills), Dexterity (accuracy), Speed (turn order + evasion), Vitality (life total) and Intelligence (side effect potency). Combat actions that target allies do not miss (unless it's an inherent part of the skill) and there's a costless skill named Support which lends a part of your stats to an ally for his action (he'll move up in turn order, hits harder and more likely...). Unidentified items are reflavored to be sealed - that is, their effects are locked until you keep using the item or applying an unsealing skill on it (Intelligence boosting the likelyhood of success). Consumables can have multiple effects, but they must have at least one effect unsealed to be used (with others being unsealed as you collect more of them).
Hard Mode
The above RPG, but also depending on dropfarming and using timed hits.
How I'd do it: Beating enemies fills up a treasure bar, which will guarantee a rare drop if it gets full from that fight (getting rare drops is impossible otherwise). Leaving an area will empty the bar. The bar can be filled more quickly by using an item in battle that boosts the power of enemies. Timed hits would be implemented by having a marker run across a slider, with accuracy increasing the size of the box you need to stop on to hit, same with enemy skills to dodge them. Non-damaging skills do not use this bar, but they can influence how it works (faster/slower marker, hit field is split up on the bar, adding extra effect fields on the bar...).
Extreme Mode
An FPS based on a war scenario with the typical 30-something white male protagonist design every game seems to use.
How I'd do it: I'll be kinda silly with how the protagonist acts - he feels the constant need to explain/demonstrate why he's manly to his allies, is irrational and violent and complains about lag/broken weapons/campers/etc. if you get shot down. So basically, he behaves like the typical audience of the games. You can often find very difficult shooting sections which can be made easier by simply taking a look around to either circumnavigate the section or to activate something that makes the fight easier (it's not explosive barrels). There's also a type of collectibles called "Developer's Notes" which make fun of silly plot decisions devs make.
Holy crap, now I actually want this game to be made.
zeello
40
I would always change the thing that held back the game the most. Telling me I can't make "major revisions" is rather vague. However I use such a criteria all the time when analyzing games and how I would have done better, but I define major revisions as anything as that would require much more development time/money/resources or something that is beyond the graphical capabilities of the system it was released on. Of course I'm not a programmer so it's rather callous of me to make such judgments at all, but I figure most of the time it's pretty obvious, and besides, gamers criticize devs all the time anyway.
Here's an example. When remaking any major FF I would remove the random encounters no matter what. I would not consider this a major revision in a technical sense, compared to lets say, converting FF7-9 to have 3d environments instead of 2D backdrops, which would be a major revision. Notice my personal view if an "efficient" revision as opposed to the latter "inefficient" revision. (functionally keeping the game similar despite pouring tons more work creating new environments) But this thread almost seems to suggest that removing random encounters would be a major revision simply because it is an aspect of the game I dislike. That's how this thread major revision. O.o Maybe a better definition would be removing anything that defines the game or sets it apart from other dogs. Trying to make every RPG you mean to fix more like your personal favorite RPG is arguably kind of a copout.
Anyway another interesting thing about this thread is that you didn't name names. No specific games are stated instead you refer to broad, groups like "grind heavy rpgs" but that's too vague for my tastes. I prefer to point out the more specific things wrong in games, and specific things to make them better. Saying "this is boring" and then suggest fixing it by saying "add more interesting elements" (oh of course, how did we not think of that) is kind of weaksauce imo.
Here's an example. When remaking any major FF I would remove the random encounters no matter what. I would not consider this a major revision in a technical sense, compared to lets say, converting FF7-9 to have 3d environments instead of 2D backdrops, which would be a major revision. Notice my personal view if an "efficient" revision as opposed to the latter "inefficient" revision. (functionally keeping the game similar despite pouring tons more work creating new environments) But this thread almost seems to suggest that removing random encounters would be a major revision simply because it is an aspect of the game I dislike. That's how this thread major revision. O.o Maybe a better definition would be removing anything that defines the game or sets it apart from other dogs. Trying to make every RPG you mean to fix more like your personal favorite RPG is arguably kind of a copout.
Anyway another interesting thing about this thread is that you didn't name names. No specific games are stated instead you refer to broad, groups like "grind heavy rpgs" but that's too vague for my tastes. I prefer to point out the more specific things wrong in games, and specific things to make them better. Saying "this is boring" and then suggest fixing it by saying "add more interesting elements" (oh of course, how did we not think of that) is kind of weaksauce imo.
LightningLord2
230
Alright, we remake terrible games now? Here's what I'd do with Lord of Xulima:
-Change Gaulen's walk speed to about 2-3 times of what it is now.
-Ditch the explorer class and let Gaulen have any class he wants. He still has a fixed diety.
-Upscale the numbers a bit so the combat values and weapon skill usage can raise damage rather than hit rate and also allow both the players and the monsters to take more hits.
-Every attack is 100% accurate.
-Remove level-based damage and ailment resistance and give everyone ailment defense stats.
-Drop out of combat skills into a seperate category from combat skills.
-Every class can only learn certain battle skills and combat talents, but every out-of-combat skill.
-You can switch your skill point investment at any time outside of combat without cost.
-Remove the food mechanic as it doesn't add anything meaningful as the food is easily restocked and only barely limits a broken out of combat heal.
-To keep the tension of wandering far out, random encounter zones still give enemies when cleared and overworld enemies can respawn - those respawned enemies provide no experience points (but you do get money)
-Completely redesign player and enemy skills from scratch to keep combat from being just a DPS race.
-You can no longer heal out of combat other than going back to a healing station. Reviving downed members requires paying a different NPC.
-Bashing open a chest will destroy all content but the money.
-Bashing open a door will trigger a battle while after you're dealt damage.
-Wounding decreases damage dealt and makes your skills cost more PP to compensate for the lack of misses.
-There won't be anything in the game that alters XP yield.
-Zones have low-leveled early areas and grow in levels fast as you progress, encouraging exploration while maintaining the feel of going back later OR challenging the high level zones with a highly specialized party and strong skill.
-Strength will increase damage of all weapons and lets you equip stronger weapons and armor.
-Dexterity increases the ailment infliction and lets you use stronger items.
-Speed determines how many turns you get. You can't allocate stat points from level ups into speed.
-Vitality increases HP and ailment defense.
-Energy increases damage from spells and items, increases healing of any kind and raises maximum PP.
That's a lot and I can certainly think of more about how to fix the game.
-Change Gaulen's walk speed to about 2-3 times of what it is now.
-Ditch the explorer class and let Gaulen have any class he wants. He still has a fixed diety.
-Upscale the numbers a bit so the combat values and weapon skill usage can raise damage rather than hit rate and also allow both the players and the monsters to take more hits.
-Every attack is 100% accurate.
-Remove level-based damage and ailment resistance and give everyone ailment defense stats.
-Drop out of combat skills into a seperate category from combat skills.
-Every class can only learn certain battle skills and combat talents, but every out-of-combat skill.
-You can switch your skill point investment at any time outside of combat without cost.
-Remove the food mechanic as it doesn't add anything meaningful as the food is easily restocked and only barely limits a broken out of combat heal.
-To keep the tension of wandering far out, random encounter zones still give enemies when cleared and overworld enemies can respawn - those respawned enemies provide no experience points (but you do get money)
-Completely redesign player and enemy skills from scratch to keep combat from being just a DPS race.
-You can no longer heal out of combat other than going back to a healing station. Reviving downed members requires paying a different NPC.
-Bashing open a chest will destroy all content but the money.
-Bashing open a door will trigger a battle while after you're dealt damage.
-Wounding decreases damage dealt and makes your skills cost more PP to compensate for the lack of misses.
-There won't be anything in the game that alters XP yield.
-Zones have low-leveled early areas and grow in levels fast as you progress, encouraging exploration while maintaining the feel of going back later OR challenging the high level zones with a highly specialized party and strong skill.
-Strength will increase damage of all weapons and lets you equip stronger weapons and armor.
-Dexterity increases the ailment infliction and lets you use stronger items.
-Speed determines how many turns you get. You can't allocate stat points from level ups into speed.
-Vitality increases HP and ailment defense.
-Energy increases damage from spells and items, increases healing of any kind and raises maximum PP.
That's a lot and I can certainly think of more about how to fix the game.
(I'm different from some of you guys, I like grind)
Normal Mode: A VX Ace horror genre. The creator decided that grind was bad, so you have too few battles, and are severely underlevel for actual boss battles.
Hard Mode: The same, but with cliche story (another zombie genre game) and with shoot 'em up elements to replace said grind battles. Unfortunately, the accuracy of these weapons are absolute garbage because they depend on exact range of between 2 and 4 squares away. Oh yeah, and ammo is absurdly limited, so more often than not you have to run. You can later get a dagger but the range is short and it's not very effective with no knockback.
EXTREME MODE: Tower of Druaga. A maze puzzle game with one hit kills but enemies that can take multiple hits. Where puzzles are based on weird factors like timing, and treasures are crucial to completing the game. That said, I liked the game (with a treasure hint guide) mostly. It's just that model has everything going wrong for it.
Normal Mode: A VX Ace horror genre. The creator decided that grind was bad, so you have too few battles, and are severely underlevel for actual boss battles.
Hard Mode: The same, but with cliche story (another zombie genre game) and with shoot 'em up elements to replace said grind battles. Unfortunately, the accuracy of these weapons are absolute garbage because they depend on exact range of between 2 and 4 squares away. Oh yeah, and ammo is absurdly limited, so more often than not you have to run. You can later get a dagger but the range is short and it's not very effective with no knockback.
EXTREME MODE: Tower of Druaga. A maze puzzle game with one hit kills but enemies that can take multiple hits. Where puzzles are based on weird factors like timing, and treasures are crucial to completing the game. That said, I liked the game (with a treasure hint guide) mostly. It's just that model has everything going wrong for it.
LightningLord2
230
Grinding is not a binary thing - grinding materials in Terraria is rather interesting as you know exactly when you're set and can move on to either grind elsewhere or to take on a boss. It only becomes a chore when the rewards for grinding are spaced out - for instance, a single level up in an RPG usually isn't that useful, making all experience points other than the one that levels you up feel pointless.
However, we can talk about grinding in a different topic.
However, we can talk about grinding in a different topic.
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