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OVERWHELMING ASPECTS IN RPGS
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Luiishu535
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CloseOverwhelming Aspects In RPGs
This is not about certain things that you simply don't like in RPGs. It's more about aspects that are potentially enjoyable, but suffer from being overwhelming.
I thought it would be interesting to discuss what aspects in RPGs that we may find overwhelming as players. I guess I'll start.
The Wall of Text:
Most of you have probably experienced this one. It usually happens a few seconds after pressing "New Game". I think there's usually WAY too much information to take in from these. Spare those details for a later time! I also don't like how most of them are scrolling down automatically. If it isn't scrolling too fast it's scrolling too slow and vice versa. Why game designers don't give the player control of the scrolling baffles me.
I think Ocarina of Time did the Wall justice. It appears after beating the game's first dungeon, serving as an extra reward for players who want to know more about the world's history/creation (yes, watching this Wall is optional). The placement for this Wall is great, since it's highly possible that players actually give a damn about it, because they have already started playing the game.
The NPC Overflow:
Have you ever walked into a huge city in an RPG? Feels pretty awesome at first glance, until you notice that there are about 6738001194 NPCs to talk to. I may be biased by this, since a lot of people see RPGs as Visual Novels. I don't. An RPG is a Role Playing Game...GAME. I think that there simply is a fine limit where the amount of NPCs provide useful information/lore/theme/atmosphere/comedy etc. and where NPCs simply becomes overwhelming. Perhaps this may be because a lot of NPCs seem to serve no more purpose than simply saying "Good day.".
One of the problems with this may be its placement. Like the wall of text, let your player sink into the game for a little while before you start cumming lore and one-liners all over the player's face.
The same could be said (IMO of course!) for:
Skill Overflow, Overwhelming Systems/Mechanics, Dialogue, Tutorials, Pauses etc.
Now I'd like to hear from you. What aspects in RPGs do you find overwhelming and why? If you have a suggestion that would solve the overwhelming aspects, then feel free to enlightenme us!
Before I end this post, I'd like to apologize if I am starting boring/stupid/overwhelming or just uninteresting topics to discuss. I'll try to better myself. Also, I'm in a bit of a hurry, so I don't have time to proofread the topic. I'm sorry if my English may confuse you! :3
This is not about certain things that you simply don't like in RPGs. It's more about aspects that are potentially enjoyable, but suffer from being overwhelming.
I thought it would be interesting to discuss what aspects in RPGs that we may find overwhelming as players. I guess I'll start.
The Wall of Text:
Most of you have probably experienced this one. It usually happens a few seconds after pressing "New Game". I think there's usually WAY too much information to take in from these. Spare those details for a later time! I also don't like how most of them are scrolling down automatically. If it isn't scrolling too fast it's scrolling too slow and vice versa. Why game designers don't give the player control of the scrolling baffles me.
I think Ocarina of Time did the Wall justice. It appears after beating the game's first dungeon, serving as an extra reward for players who want to know more about the world's history/creation (yes, watching this Wall is optional). The placement for this Wall is great, since it's highly possible that players actually give a damn about it, because they have already started playing the game.
The NPC Overflow:
Have you ever walked into a huge city in an RPG? Feels pretty awesome at first glance, until you notice that there are about 6738001194 NPCs to talk to. I may be biased by this, since a lot of people see RPGs as Visual Novels. I don't. An RPG is a Role Playing Game...GAME. I think that there simply is a fine limit where the amount of NPCs provide useful information/lore/theme/atmosphere/comedy etc. and where NPCs simply becomes overwhelming. Perhaps this may be because a lot of NPCs seem to serve no more purpose than simply saying "Good day.".
One of the problems with this may be its placement. Like the wall of text, let your player sink into the game for a little while before you start cumming lore and one-liners all over the player's face.
The same could be said (IMO of course!) for:
Skill Overflow, Overwhelming Systems/Mechanics, Dialogue, Tutorials, Pauses etc.
Now I'd like to hear from you. What aspects in RPGs do you find overwhelming and why? If you have a suggestion that would solve the overwhelming aspects, then feel free to enlighten
Before I end this post, I'd like to apologize if I am starting boring/stupid/overwhelming or just uninteresting topics to discuss. I'll try to better myself. Also, I'm in a bit of a hurry, so I don't have time to proofread the topic. I'm sorry if my English may confuse you! :3
I'm considering getting around NPC overflow by giving the NPCs in my game who actually have something -useful- to say a subtle highlight.
Gredge109
4151
Opening Cutscene
I'm a big fan of the cold-open. Kind of like how Saturday Night Live used to start, where you'd immediately be opened into a skit where events are taking place and actors are acting on the screen. Final Fantasy begins with a cold open: you're outside the castle and you can either walk around for a bit and battle, or walk inside the town and head to the castle to start the story.
I don't use cold opens, but I'll usually start with a short scene, then give control over to the player.
Some games have opening scroll texts so long that I just don't bother to pay any attention. Then if it's a super-tight story that's tied up into all of these different details, I'll be completely lost three minutes in because my mind has something else to think about (one of the cures for this is, however, a short narrative instead of a timeline of events).
NPC Overload
Every NPC I meet has a short story behind them that the player never sees. I'll repeat that: I create a short-story, that the player never sees, for every NPC that they encounter in my game. And they can be stories as short as a sentence and a half. In the project I'm working on now, in one town, I have two NPC's that live in the same house, a mother and a son. The mother is lamenting over the recklessness of her son, always throwing himself into danger. Speaking with the son who is outside the village reveals that his father has died due to monsters from outside the town. The player can now piece together, on their own, how the boy's reckless nature stems from their inability to save their dad.
A good article on this site that I read one time mentioned that it's a good idea to establish maybe one NPC in your town per house, or maybe two or three to a large house. So what I'll do, is I'll keep track on pad and paper all of the houses that I made, and then start writing down how many people live in a house, then I'll create a narrative off of that for each household.
Normally my NPC's aren't very random, they usually tell a story about how, for example, they left the town without preparing ahead of time, and a monster bit them and their skin started to rot, requiring the use of *cough* an Antidote item.
Other times they will interact with the events going on in the world around then, or subtly hint about the plot, or act as a set-up for a future revelation of the plot. I tend to avoid the "fill in the blanks" idea with my NPCs.
Stamina Bars
On a separate note I really dislike stamina bars. I'd rather just dash everywhere constantly, and adding a stamina bar to determine this slows down my speed I'm used to, and takes away a bit of my enjoyment.
Unless it's used in a unique way: I remember Breath of Fire Dragon Quarter had a feature not quite like a stamina bar, but a gauge you could fill up throughout the game, and if you used it while running down the halls, you could not only move incredibly fast, but knock monsters out of the way to avoid battle.
I'm a big fan of the cold-open. Kind of like how Saturday Night Live used to start, where you'd immediately be opened into a skit where events are taking place and actors are acting on the screen. Final Fantasy begins with a cold open: you're outside the castle and you can either walk around for a bit and battle, or walk inside the town and head to the castle to start the story.
I don't use cold opens, but I'll usually start with a short scene, then give control over to the player.
Some games have opening scroll texts so long that I just don't bother to pay any attention. Then if it's a super-tight story that's tied up into all of these different details, I'll be completely lost three minutes in because my mind has something else to think about (one of the cures for this is, however, a short narrative instead of a timeline of events).
NPC Overload
Every NPC I meet has a short story behind them that the player never sees. I'll repeat that: I create a short-story, that the player never sees, for every NPC that they encounter in my game. And they can be stories as short as a sentence and a half. In the project I'm working on now, in one town, I have two NPC's that live in the same house, a mother and a son. The mother is lamenting over the recklessness of her son, always throwing himself into danger. Speaking with the son who is outside the village reveals that his father has died due to monsters from outside the town. The player can now piece together, on their own, how the boy's reckless nature stems from their inability to save their dad.
A good article on this site that I read one time mentioned that it's a good idea to establish maybe one NPC in your town per house, or maybe two or three to a large house. So what I'll do, is I'll keep track on pad and paper all of the houses that I made, and then start writing down how many people live in a house, then I'll create a narrative off of that for each household.
Normally my NPC's aren't very random, they usually tell a story about how, for example, they left the town without preparing ahead of time, and a monster bit them and their skin started to rot, requiring the use of *cough* an Antidote item.
Other times they will interact with the events going on in the world around then, or subtly hint about the plot, or act as a set-up for a future revelation of the plot. I tend to avoid the "fill in the blanks" idea with my NPCs.
Stamina Bars
On a separate note I really dislike stamina bars. I'd rather just dash everywhere constantly, and adding a stamina bar to determine this slows down my speed I'm used to, and takes away a bit of my enjoyment.
Unless it's used in a unique way: I remember Breath of Fire Dragon Quarter had a feature not quite like a stamina bar, but a gauge you could fill up throughout the game, and if you used it while running down the halls, you could not only move incredibly fast, but knock monsters out of the way to avoid battle.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
BATTLE DETAIL, or "Holy shit what are all these bars WAIT WHAT DID THAT GUY JUST DO TO M- what which of these options is the one I want they all have unclear names OH GOD OH GOD THIS IS ACTIVE TIME I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I'M DOING!!!"
In general, I've noticed a lot of creators tend to front-load their information, both in narrative and in tutorial form, which is boring for the former and confusing for the latter. It's a LOT better to guide a new player step-by-step through things and drip-feed details, rather than just dumping a textbook in their lap and saying "HAVE FUN WITH THIS WORDVOMIT!"
In general, I've noticed a lot of creators tend to front-load their information, both in narrative and in tutorial form, which is boring for the former and confusing for the latter. It's a LOT better to guide a new player step-by-step through things and drip-feed details, rather than just dumping a textbook in their lap and saying "HAVE FUN WITH THIS WORDVOMIT!"
It's hard for me to answer this because almost all of these issues are a result of poor design decisions that aren't really exclusive to RPGs.
Though yeah, info-dump is the worst. Presenting loads of information without the player experiencing anything to understand context ultimately leads to confusion and frustration. It's like you are putting a climbing wall over someone's gaming experience.
Though yeah, info-dump is the worst. Presenting loads of information without the player experiencing anything to understand context ultimately leads to confusion and frustration. It's like you are putting a climbing wall over someone's gaming experience.
Hyper-Realism:
Let's put this pony in his stable: realism is overrated. If I wanted realism, I wouldn't be playing video games. Now, I'm not talking about gorgeous graphics. Who doesn't love those? I'm talking about game mechanics so overthought, so perfect, so indistinguishable from life that they simply aren't fun anymore. Star Wars: Battlefront. The speeders on Endor aren't fun if they're physics are so real they behave just like they would in real life. Dying every three seconds isn't fun either. To put this in perspective, the worst Call of Duty games are better than this trash. Put it against Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain, in which you, playing as a single guy, can take out an entire army. I know that in real life, one guy can't invade an enemy army compound and take it over, but when I'm playing a game, I don't particularly care what you can do in real life. MGSV is so much more fun. A game that gives a guy on foot the ability to take out a giant walking robot is doing it right, because frankly, unless I'm in my car sitting at a traffic light, who gives a shit about realism?
Let's put this pony in his stable: realism is overrated. If I wanted realism, I wouldn't be playing video games. Now, I'm not talking about gorgeous graphics. Who doesn't love those? I'm talking about game mechanics so overthought, so perfect, so indistinguishable from life that they simply aren't fun anymore. Star Wars: Battlefront. The speeders on Endor aren't fun if they're physics are so real they behave just like they would in real life. Dying every three seconds isn't fun either. To put this in perspective, the worst Call of Duty games are better than this trash. Put it against Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain, in which you, playing as a single guy, can take out an entire army. I know that in real life, one guy can't invade an enemy army compound and take it over, but when I'm playing a game, I don't particularly care what you can do in real life. MGSV is so much more fun. A game that gives a guy on foot the ability to take out a giant walking robot is doing it right, because frankly, unless I'm in my car sitting at a traffic light, who gives a shit about realism?
You really hate my scrolling text don't you? :(
I'm going to change it soon where you can skip it or do something very similar to scrolling text but with options. I'll probably add the skip though because it's easier and if someone wants to re-read something if they missed a code or something but have the option to skip if desired. (Most text is optional)
An overwhelming aspect for me personally is shops. They don't bode well for the games I like to make. It's such a big part of every game, even "survival" games like RE adopted it.
I think some games are better without it and that if you have to rely on the shop too much then it becomes meh. (I'm looking at myself on this one)
Edit:
it's a fine balance that I haven't mastered yet lol
Also...
I'm going to change it soon where you can skip it or do something very similar to scrolling text but with options. I'll probably add the skip though because it's easier and if someone wants to re-read something if they missed a code or something but have the option to skip if desired. (Most text is optional)
An overwhelming aspect for me personally is shops. They don't bode well for the games I like to make. It's such a big part of every game, even "survival" games like RE adopted it.
I think some games are better without it and that if you have to rely on the shop too much then it becomes meh. (I'm looking at myself on this one)
Edit:
author=SoozI'm guilty of this to a fault. A lot of my games (Most unfinished and not on here) even my main ones have very little exposition. It was only recently that I started to add more after feedback. Which is a good thing because I didn't spill information but at times I didn't spill enough.
In general, I've noticed a lot of creators tend to front-load their information, both in narrative and in tutorial form, which is boring for the former and confusing for the latter. It's a LOT better to guide a new player step-by-step through things and drip-feed details, rather than just dumping a textbook in their lap and saying "HAVE FUN WITH THIS WORDVOMIT!"
it's a fine balance that I haven't mastered yet lol
Also...
author=kentona
POWER OVERWHELMING
Well, I don't think we should have to discard what we know and try to reinvent the wheel here.
It's funny though!
It's funny though!
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I will definitely list Open-Ended Exploration as my personal #1 most overwhelming feature. If there's not a reason to do something then I really have no desire to do it, which you'd think would be a self-evident statement in the first place. But so many games these days seem to give the player ten thousand options of what to do and where to go next, with no particular motivation or benefit provided to pick almost any of them. The fact that I don't have to do them prevents the designers from being able to make them seem important, and often I can't even tell which one progresses the story.
I can deal with a smaller amount of nonlinearity just fine, like, say, the amount in most Zelda games. But the amount in the new upcoming Zelda for Wii U is bonkers, it's like Skyrim level. I cannot deal, I just shut down as a player. Even the amount in Zelda 1 seriously turns me off.
I can deal with a smaller amount of nonlinearity just fine, like, say, the amount in most Zelda games. But the amount in the new upcoming Zelda for Wii U is bonkers, it's like Skyrim level. I cannot deal, I just shut down as a player. Even the amount in Zelda 1 seriously turns me off.
On the flipside though LockeZ, the reception I've perceived to FF13 would indicate that people are equally frustrated by completely linear games.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Yeah, all of these things we've listed so far can be underwhelming too if they go too far in the other direction.
I personally like sand boxes. The only time I have a problem with Open-Ended Explorations is when there are no clear directions. I hate, hate, hate, HATE stumbling around with no clue where to go until I accidentally find the right NPC/town/random MacGuffin. Looking at you, Final Fantasy...all of them.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=LockeZ
Open-Ended Exploration
Same. I love to explore in games, but it's nice to have an idea where the plot is expected to happen next
Milennin
2060
This is for RPG Maker games, but when a game promises custom battle system and then looks so cluttered with all sorts of stuffs, bars, windows, numbers, icons etc that I don't even know where to start looking.
THIS
The battle system in The Last Remnant is like, a crystal clear example of the ways RPGs can be really overwhelming to me.
You have a lot of information to keep track of, scattered all over the place, and in this game's case the mechanics are often very hard to understand at first glance, even when they have an informative name. (Deadlock, Interference, Interception, Botched unions, units vs unions...the list goes on)
The game doesn't present the information very well. It knows this is a lot to take in, and so you have tutorials that introduce things slowly, one bit at a time. The loading screens provide additional information about the mechanics. You don't get the tutorials all at once -- some things, like the tutorial text about what "Botch" means, only shows up the first time that event happens. (which can be quite some time; I first heard about "Botch" in the loading screens, but it was a while before I saw it in any battles.)
It goes to a lot of trouble to try and make the presentation of information feel less overwhelming, but that's a tall order when you have a battle system with so many Mechanics. Yet, to represent the kinds of things this system is geared towards (conveying a sense of large scale battle management that incorporates space), it's no surprise it ended up this complex. I mean, I think they could have simplified it a lot, but I Get why things ended up like this.
Once I actually started to understand things, it was really fun! And I've come to love the battle system, despite everything. But I almost put the game down at the first battle because it was just a mess of chaos and noise and cluttered UI elements. Keep in mind, this was just the battle system. The other game mechanics are just as numerous and hard to keep track of for me, and the story presentation is a mess of Lore and "who are these people why are they doing anything" problems. (and yet..........i love this game....anyways)
I don't know what I would say to "fix" the many, many problems with information in this game. Tutorials are presented in a reasonable manner, imo, but then the loading screen information can feel really disconnected, because even if loading screens tells you what the "charm aura" is and how it's different from a "terrify aura", you might not see either of those things for a very long time. It's worth thinking about the amount of time between presenting information to a player and when that information is actually relevant. The less time between these things, the better, but then you can run into the "holy shit this is way too much information all at once" type problems.
It's actually very common for rpgs (and a lot of games, honestly) to be really, really overwhelming for me. I can't play ATB battle systems without a wait option, and with a few exceptions I can't do real time stuff. I just process the information too slowly to make effective decisions in time, but I often get bored in games that i feel are too easy. I like challenge and complexity, but I need time to stick my toe in the water and get used to it before plunging in.
and I think the last remnant is a PERFECT case study of overwhelming things, or even just presentation in rpgs.
(this doesn't even cover all of the game's mechanics...im p sure it doesn't get to Mr. Diggs, among other things...)
Anyways, I try to be very mindful of this in my own stuff, because it sucks when you think something MIGHT be fun but it's hard to tell in-between all the ????
- Overall, I try to design games with minimalism in mechanics. I take a "less in more" philosophy when thinking about how to represent Ideas and Concepts. Bonus points if I can re-purpose rpg mechanics that players are likely to be familiar with.
- I try and have mechanics that are intuitive, either in name or function. Things that are easy to demonstrate. I can't think of examples off the top of my head because my brain hates me BUT a theoretical example: Having a character be attacked and lose hp. You can figure out the relationship between these two events at a glance. You see something happen and a number goes down, it's a really clear cause-effect relationship.
- I repeat information, but in different ways. If you just straight up say something over and over it's easy for that to feel very boring and dry. Can you demonstrate something in words? visually? Other ways???
In the end, I try to remember that whether or not something comes across as overwhelming is a perception, not an objective fact. YEAH WOW OBVIOUS but I really feel emphasizing how subjective that line is. Some people prefer to get all the information at once, then see examples. Others might prefer to get the examples one at a time. Some people like as little information as possible because they get joy out of experimenting and figuring out stuff on their own. Like literally any game design thing, it's hard to find one size fits all solutions.
I have to leave now so here's an unfinished, probably overwhelming text mess b/c I'll forget all of this by the time i get home
mostly I wanted to complain about my love/hate relationship with the last remnant
Yeah, sometimes less is more. At least I try to go that route (do much with little).
Perhaps the reason why these aspects are so overwhelming in RPGs is because a lot of RPGs try to do a lot of things at the same time. It's usually (for a lot people) about the epic story, the strategic combat, the rich exploration, the world building. This means that there will always be some players who despise certain things while some players miss certain things in their RPG.
Perhaps the reason why these aspects are so overwhelming in RPGs is because a lot of RPGs try to do a lot of things at the same time. It's usually (for a lot people) about the epic story, the strategic combat, the rich exploration, the world building. This means that there will always be some players who despise certain things while some players miss certain things in their RPG.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
I'll get to my proper response to this thread momentarily, but what I'm currently finding overwhelming is your avatar. Can you perhaps change it to something that doesn't give me a headache?
E: My most recent example comes from FF8. There were at least two instances where the game tried to make itself out to being more than it really was during missions. The most jarring instance I recall was it throwing about a page of instructions at me after I just so happened to fly into the enemy Garden and initiated the war scenes. I was just flying around all whatever (half awake, I might add) when suddenly BOOM! Do this, do that, make a speech, send your guys around the Garden, there's evil afoot EEEEEEEEEEEEEVIIIIIILLLLLLLL!
And here I was getting ready for bed...
If there was some lead-up, that'd be fine, but I was seriously just flying around and I happened across the damn trigger zone and now there's a war and I'm not prepared and airborne motorcycle infantry and people are freaking out and there's some people in the library I can't get to get out of the goddamn way now I'm punching a guy hanging off a mech by a piece of string and yay I saved my girlfriend(?) that if I can be completely honest I really don't give two shits about because I'm just trying to play the game and there's never been a moment that I've cared enough about the characters and the world they live in to try and get them to the bone zone so hurray everybody.
Now having beaten the game I'm rewatching Spoony's old review and agreeing with it and laughing when he's not too busy making gay jokes and going on and on about the women and how he wants to get in their pants.
I recently compared optional content to off-time from work. Sometimes it's nice to be able to do your own thing before returning to what you're hammered into. But, of course, if you don't have a job, then that free time is worthless so you don't appreciate the time you actually have off.
Make the main game worth playing and the optional content will carve out its own niche.
E: My most recent example comes from FF8. There were at least two instances where the game tried to make itself out to being more than it really was during missions. The most jarring instance I recall was it throwing about a page of instructions at me after I just so happened to fly into the enemy Garden and initiated the war scenes. I was just flying around all whatever (half awake, I might add) when suddenly BOOM! Do this, do that, make a speech, send your guys around the Garden, there's evil afoot EEEEEEEEEEEEEVIIIIIILLLLLLLL!
And here I was getting ready for bed...
If there was some lead-up, that'd be fine, but I was seriously just flying around and I happened across the damn trigger zone and now there's a war and I'm not prepared and airborne motorcycle infantry and people are freaking out and there's some people in the library I can't get to get out of the goddamn way now I'm punching a guy hanging off a mech by a piece of string and yay I saved my girlfriend(?) that if I can be completely honest I really don't give two shits about because I'm just trying to play the game and there's never been a moment that I've cared enough about the characters and the world they live in to try and get them to the bone zone so hurray everybody.
Now having beaten the game I'm rewatching Spoony's old review and agreeing with it and laughing when he's not too busy making gay jokes and going on and on about the women and how he wants to get in their pants.
author=Trihan
On the flipside though LockeZ, the reception I've perceived to FF13 would indicate that people are equally frustrated by completely linear games.
I recently compared optional content to off-time from work. Sometimes it's nice to be able to do your own thing before returning to what you're hammered into. But, of course, if you don't have a job, then that free time is worthless so you don't appreciate the time you actually have off.
Make the main game worth playing and the optional content will carve out its own niche.
