[GAME OVER] M.A.F.I.A:PANDEMIC EDITION(POSTGAME DISCUSSION)

@psy- I can't say I have a most suspicious but of course there's CAVE, but like I said before I'm kinda done trying there. I personally only have my gut feeling and then he has some weird behaviors.

there's gourd, but I've mAde the mistake with him before about his inactivity and general laidbackness. you might have evidence against him but I just don't feel it.
I'm digging into piano's posts and besides his desire towards me doesn't have a whole that would make me super suspicious of him. hes like CAVE for me though, both hard to read and even harder to fight for someone like me until I get better.

Frogge has like jack on him besides acting strangely and Ive suspected blob since close to the beginning but no one really has made a good case against him.

And I do suspect you Psy, but you defended me too much. I dont think you're mafia, I'll put it that way.

I'm not going to vote for awhile, I've been hasty too much and since more now then ever I dont want to supply scum with an easy lynch

psy_wombats
@piano Day 2 the alternative was /me/, and I judged that Ratty was more likely to be mafia than he was to be a specialist.

That's not my point. My point is, you said several times that you didn't believe Ratty was mafia, yet instead of trying to build a case against who did believe was mafia, you insisted on focusing on Cave, then when Cave turned out town, you went back to the lynch Ratty plan, and not once did you try to build a case against YM until Cave and I got on you about it, and you didn't attempt to build a case against Gourd until you realized I had figured out your game. Then CAVE said "Jump" and you said, "How high?"

Who do you think I /was/ scumhunting day 2? I hunted CAVE as much as I could until he cleared himself. I even asked you if we should go for YM instead because at that point they were equally likely to me and we wouldn't have had the votes without you. I have never scumhunted Ratty. I floated lynching Ratty to get Cave to bite, but he cleared himself and didn't, so I dropped it. Then I voted for Gourd (equally likely as YM, like I posted last night). Nobody moved their vote. So I had to switch to save my own skin, regardless of what I thought of Ratty because I could never be as sure about him as I could be about myself. I think I also have a wall of text post somewhere explicitly calling out everyone voting /for/ Ratty.

Actually, you said it yourself: You had a scale of 1 to 4, 1 being highest and 4 being lowest. YM and Gourd were at 1, Cave at 2, me, Ratty, and someone else, I think Blob, at 3, and then Frogge and IF at 4. I agree, you didn't actually make any strong accusations against Ratty. You built your lynch on other people's cases and on the notion of lynching a townie to draw scum out. Even after you dropped Cave, you didn't really start trying to make a case for your prime suspects until Cave and I started pressuring you.

YM started the lynch on Ratty. Not Gourd. Gourd built a case on the Ratty lynch, making actual accusations. You voted for Gourd when Ratty (confirmed town), Gourd, and I, voted on you.

Well, I think you're scum. If you're not scum, then it's a case of you absolutely having to be right instead of just making a reasonable case against who you thought was actually scum. You had several hours to do it that I wasn't on your case during which time you were posting and had plenty of time to shift your suspicions off of Ratty.

Day one: you deliberately forced on coin flip on two people you were reasonably sure were town.

Day two: you deliberately forced a vote on someone you thought was town, and it ended up being the vigilante! Yeah, it reached a point where it was you or him. That was the absolute worse case scenario! It was by the grace of whatever divine being there is that the SK's aim was true. The game was essentially over for us with Ratty turning out to be the vigilante. Losing you would have been so much better than losing the vigilante. Your "strategy" had disastrous consequences for us. I sincerely doubt you're town. Even if you are, I can't actually see scum jumping on a vote for you considering that you've been their best friend this whole game.

InfectionFiles
@psy- I can't say I have a most suspicious but of course there's CAVE, but like I said before I'm kinda done trying there. I personally only have my gut feeling and then he has some weird behaviors.

I also don't think CAVE would have intimated being upset about the Orlando shooting if he were scum. I agree with psy that that would be kind of low, and I'd feel low for using that against him.

there's gourd, but I've mAde the mistake with him before about his inactivity and general laidbackness. you might have evidence against him but I just don't feel it.

Why does everyone keep saying this? Gourd has dominated the thread in post count, at least for the second day phase. Go back and see for yourself. The pages that are devoid of Gourd can easily be explained by time zones and real life.

I'm digging into piano's posts and besides his desire towards me doesn't have a whole that would make me super suspicious of him. hes like CAVE for me though, both hard to read and even harder to fight for someone like me until I get better.

I actually pretty much have lost all suspicion on you. In the defense against me that you gave to Gourd, you seemed really sincere to me. I'll also...reluctantly...admit that much of my scum hunting on you was out of indignation for you going after Ratty after Gourd tried to make a possible scum connection between you two...so a lot of my suspicion was mostly on behalf of defending Ratty. Sorry about that. Obviously, this doesn't take possible infection into account.

Frogge has like jack on him besides acting strangely and Ive suspected blob since close to the beginning but no one really has made a good case against him.

Frogge is entirely unhelpful. I think I've only seen one or two posts from him where he gives a legitimate opinion. Definitely keep an eye peeled on him. I can definitely see him voting against the bandwagons to keep from looking like scum.

And I do suspect you Psy, but you defended me too much. I dont think you're mafia, I'll put it that way.

Be very careful of this logic. What's the best way to look like town in mafia? Act like town. Just because someone's defending you doesn't mean he isn't doing it to boost his credibility.

I'm not going to vote for awhile, I've been hasty too much and since more now then ever I dont want to supply scum with an easy lynch

This is good. It's always good to consider all of the facts before making a decision.

When was CAVE said to be town? I know i missed the last minutes of Day 2 but I thought I caught up on that and didn't see it. Because of his reason for not being active?

When Cave finally came back after a long silence, he was a bit upset that we were voting to lynch him on very little evidence. He said it's been awhile since he's played, and that he lives in Florida, and Florida hasn't exactly had a good week. I don't think he'd have said that if he were scum. What do you think?

I gotcha. and yeah I didn't mean to sound insensitive or anything but I thought he might've dropped it himself. If we are thinking he's town on that alone then I'd say it's possible but don't think anyone would do that. It's also something you don't want to question and look like an asshole. Not my intention, but that's the only thing I could find about it after asking.

And to be fair I was defending Gourds activity level this game, my bad if it come off weird, typing on the phone doesnt give me an easy editing/overview when I start to type a big post.

and to be abit meta here that's s what I learned last game that just because someone is being quiet doesn't mean shit sometimes. I even started this game with thst thought logic and it doesn't really hgo anywhere and definitely isn't a.strong argument.
Frogge however hasn't really made any point to try and defend his inactivity, which is actually existent unlike Gourd this game.

Ugh, sorry piano, it's hard to argue this with you without being, well, argumentative, but I know if we want to win this we have to be voting for the same person, regardless of how badly I screwed things up.

author=pianotm
You had several hours to do it that I wasn't on your case during which time you were posting and had plenty of time to shift your suspicions off of Ratty.

I checked this. You voted to lynch me at 12:50. I decided CAVE was innocent at 1:26 (in reality a little before this, in case you were testing me to see if I immediately switched votes in an effort to save myself). I'm sorry I couldn't satisfy you during those negative 36 minutes. I don't understand why you think I was hunting Ratty. Like, look at the people who actually did suspect him: YM (scum) CAVE (innocent) IF (innocent). They all cast their votes willfully, whereas I had to make a choice between generic town (me) or unknown-but-unlikely (Ratty). This is why I also don't understand why you're holding me responsible for it more than anyone else. My strategy from early day 2 didn't come to fruition because we let CAVE go. My worst-case-scenario shit-strategy at end of night 2 was to pray I was wrong and Ratty actually /was/ mafia, or else at least a normal. My other alternative would be to literally vote for myself to avoid a coinflip. I'm really not a veteran player, what decision would you have made in those circumstances? Ratty didn't look special to me. I figured Ratty would've role-claimed around the time you tied the vote up. At that point it was already 50/50 me or him, Cave could've easily saved him. I screwed up and made the wrong call, but I'm not ashamed of it because I did the best with the info I had. I thought there was a chance it'd save us from game over.

author=pianotm
Well, I think you're scum. If you're not scum, then it's a case of you absolutely having to be right instead of just making a reasonable case against who you thought was actually scum.

Well... I concede you that, for better or for worse.

@IF if you're worried about activity levels, check Blob. I'm also getting less confident in Frogge the longer he's absent. He'd be a hilarious night 2 infect for mafia. Even if he got bored of his gimmick and wandered off, it still means we lose.

Fun to note: we can only win now if at some point mafia accidentally nightkills the serial killer.

Actually shit it's worse than I thought. Not only must the SK be nightkilled for a win, we have to lynch mafia tonight, and the SK needs to kill mafia tonight. I forgot mafia has one dose of infection left.

In the best case scenario we have 3 innocent/3 mafia/1 neutral
After lynch: 3/2/1
After infect: 2/3/1 (@Tangled is that a loss? Are we hosed regardless?)
After SK: 2/2/1

I think we need the full solution tonight. At the minimum, the SK needs to know the full solution. (has anyone ever seen a SK actually win? 2/2/1 would be just one night away)

author=pianotm
No, you misunderstand. I meant before I made my case against you, when you were still largely free to make a go at Yellow Magic, but instead chose to go with that plan to draw CAVE out by having everyone go after Ratty.

So after Cave posted? Or between when Ratty switched to me and when you switched to me? I also don't understand why you think the plan was to go after Ratty to draw out Cave, when I started the lynch vote on Cave with the understanding that if he was innocent, Ratty was guilty. Except I was wrong when I assumed it had to be one of them, partially because I misread one of your posts and thought /you/ were after Ratty, which would've given us an even split.

No, there came a point where you asked me who I would go after, CAVE or YM. I didn't see anything particularly scummy from either of them. But CAVE seemed to be having a fit of the sullens, and if I had to chose, it would be him, and I thought there was a very strong chance he might be infected, given how his activity really dropped off for day phase 2. So we voted on CAVE, then he came on and blew us out of the water. I would have thought you would have gone after YM or Gourd after that (I don't actually remember if you expressed suspicion of Gourd at this point.), but you didn't. What happened next was you started telling CAVE that if he thought Ratty was scum, you'd follow it and you asked his opinions on who was on his scum list. This struck me as very non-committal and an unwillingness to take a risk in scum-hunting. So I started going through the post history to see what exactly it was everyone was seeing in Ratty, because people were talking, but I wasn't getting it, and all I saw was Ratty as town. While I was doing this, I was rereading your posts and noticing the same pattern of going for safe lynches. You even said several times you thought Ratty was town, and yet here you were at several points expressing a willingness to lynch him. Then, while I'm going through the posts, CAVE refuses to give his scum list and then asks for yours. You give it and YM and Gourd are at the top while Ratty is at third level, which I interpreted as basically beneath suspicion. Why would town knowingly scum hunt town?

Ahhh okay. Yeah actually I got stuck there. As soon as CAVE excused himself, I was sure he was innocent and so the original lynch-Cave thing was never going to happen. I opted to hold my position on CAVE for an hour after he posted that because I was worried of drawing suspicion. To me, anyone starting a lynch then dropping out at the first sign of trouble is suspicious and noncomittal, and I wouldn't blame anyone for suspecting me for it. But it turns out that /not/ immediately changing had that effect anyway because Ratty jumped on me as fast as possible. Immediately firing back at him would be counterproductive because I thought he was innocent and would preferred to lynch someone else. I did some thinking past that point and decided to go in the complete opposite direction of what had set me up as suspicious in the first place, so I put out a case instead of a strategy, against Gourd. I think he really opened himself up voting for me when he did and that that was a strong enough reason to go for him over YM.