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YOU'RE PREFERRED PLANNING/DESIGNING STYLE... AND WHEN TO GET OUT OF THE PLANNING PHASE
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Kyuketsuki
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CloseI suppose the thread's title pretty much sums up everything I wish to talk about, but of course I can't just leave a one line/blank post to start with.
How do you guys prefer to design/plan your games? The two most popular styles seem to be either designing the game as you go along, or planning out a large portion of the game before implementing anything, and perhaps a third method of occasionally combining each method. While the former method has the benefit of being able to actually see if your ideas are actually possible with the software at hand as well as be able to make it fit better in your game, I find myself usually leaning towards "pre-development planning". I have so many text files on my computer with lists of characters, locations, stories, equipment, skills and many other things that only occasionally actually get put into a real project. That said, this sort of planning often gives me more than I can chew, especially when I tend to usually wipe out the entire database upon starting a new project (you'd think after using RPG Makers for nearly 10 years I'd have the smarts to just create a project with a blank database and only copy/paste it when I decide to start a new project, but not quite...).
However, I suppose that leads into my second question: for those that wish to plan out a structure for their game before actually implementing/designing anything, how long do your "pre-development planning" sessions last for? Or, I suppose to reword the question in the opposite way but with the same meaning, when do you decide the planning phase is finished, or how long does it regularly take until you have something legitimately cohesive that could be turned into a real project with an actually fair chance of being completed? I know that the answers to these questions are all context-based, as not every project is the exact same regardless of their similarity, but I can only assume that people have their limits to how long they can think about a project before actually getting down to business and making it a reality.
Finally, as a bit of a spin off question, how much of your game do you generally like to plan out before truly making anything? The idea of planning out the entirety of a game from its beginning to its ending in text files is seemingly unrealistic for numerous reasons, but nonetheless all of your planned gameplay features mean nothing if there isn't even an excuse plot of a story to connect them and give you a reason to continue playing, and likewise unless you're developing a visual novel a 60+ hour epic story doesn't mean shit if you don't have a fun game to play and, again, give you a reason to care about it (though, personally, I have no experience with games that have great stories but terrible gameplay, but that's a bit off topic). I suppose this comes back to the idea of combining both development methods by starting with a basic, pre-planned out game and story structure while the rest is made up on the spot, but this also comes with risking implementing ideas that either serve no purpose or don't fit with the original structure, and doing so would of course ultimately bring the game down. Perhaps this can be excused with the fact that all of us are indie game developers (not that being such makes us either better or worse than triple A developers), and therefore expectations for our games are noticeably lowered, and not to mention that fat/padding is only a problem depending on how much of it there is, but while I don't expect anyone, including myself, in the RPG Maker to be a game developing deity I was also raised on not doing things at all if you don't do them right, so while I don't ever believe I'll be perfect at anything I would still prefer to do something knowing what the generally accepted best/most successful method of doing it is.
How do you guys prefer to design/plan your games? The two most popular styles seem to be either designing the game as you go along, or planning out a large portion of the game before implementing anything, and perhaps a third method of occasionally combining each method. While the former method has the benefit of being able to actually see if your ideas are actually possible with the software at hand as well as be able to make it fit better in your game, I find myself usually leaning towards "pre-development planning". I have so many text files on my computer with lists of characters, locations, stories, equipment, skills and many other things that only occasionally actually get put into a real project. That said, this sort of planning often gives me more than I can chew, especially when I tend to usually wipe out the entire database upon starting a new project (you'd think after using RPG Makers for nearly 10 years I'd have the smarts to just create a project with a blank database and only copy/paste it when I decide to start a new project, but not quite...).
However, I suppose that leads into my second question: for those that wish to plan out a structure for their game before actually implementing/designing anything, how long do your "pre-development planning" sessions last for? Or, I suppose to reword the question in the opposite way but with the same meaning, when do you decide the planning phase is finished, or how long does it regularly take until you have something legitimately cohesive that could be turned into a real project with an actually fair chance of being completed? I know that the answers to these questions are all context-based, as not every project is the exact same regardless of their similarity, but I can only assume that people have their limits to how long they can think about a project before actually getting down to business and making it a reality.
Finally, as a bit of a spin off question, how much of your game do you generally like to plan out before truly making anything? The idea of planning out the entirety of a game from its beginning to its ending in text files is seemingly unrealistic for numerous reasons, but nonetheless all of your planned gameplay features mean nothing if there isn't even an excuse plot of a story to connect them and give you a reason to continue playing, and likewise unless you're developing a visual novel a 60+ hour epic story doesn't mean shit if you don't have a fun game to play and, again, give you a reason to care about it (though, personally, I have no experience with games that have great stories but terrible gameplay, but that's a bit off topic). I suppose this comes back to the idea of combining both development methods by starting with a basic, pre-planned out game and story structure while the rest is made up on the spot, but this also comes with risking implementing ideas that either serve no purpose or don't fit with the original structure, and doing so would of course ultimately bring the game down. Perhaps this can be excused with the fact that all of us are indie game developers (not that being such makes us either better or worse than triple A developers), and therefore expectations for our games are noticeably lowered, and not to mention that fat/padding is only a problem depending on how much of it there is, but while I don't expect anyone, including myself, in the RPG Maker to be a game developing deity I was also raised on not doing things at all if you don't do them right, so while I don't ever believe I'll be perfect at anything I would still prefer to do something knowing what the generally accepted best/most successful method of doing it is.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
Like you said, the amount of planning that goes into it really depends on what kind of game you're making. The current game I'm working on is going to be system-heavy, so I needed to make sure the systems are working the way I want them to before moving on to actually making content.
To that end, I spent most of this year working on a prototype of the core game loop instead of the game itself. Prototypes are great because you're free to design and build at the same time without worrying about optimization and database management. The prototype phase is the time where you decide how you want the game to feel, which scripts/plugins to use, how much custom assets/scripts you have to make yourself and what needs to be commissioned, and see just how feasible your idea is for you to make. Once the game loops is in a place where you can comfortably say "yeah, this'll work," then start a new project to build the game for real.
As for how long it takes, unfortunately, with games being various sizes and scopes, I can't really arbitrarily assign a time value to this phase. "Until it is done" is the only real answer I can give.
To that end, I spent most of this year working on a prototype of the core game loop instead of the game itself. Prototypes are great because you're free to design and build at the same time without worrying about optimization and database management. The prototype phase is the time where you decide how you want the game to feel, which scripts/plugins to use, how much custom assets/scripts you have to make yourself and what needs to be commissioned, and see just how feasible your idea is for you to make. Once the game loops is in a place where you can comfortably say "yeah, this'll work," then start a new project to build the game for real.
As for how long it takes, unfortunately, with games being various sizes and scopes, I can't really arbitrarily assign a time value to this phase. "Until it is done" is the only real answer I can give.
A term I hear writers use for how people tend to do this is Planner and Pantser, with planners creating detailed outlines before diving into the writing (or game dev) and Pantsers write as they go along (or "by the seat of their pants")
I'm somewhere in-between. I want to have a bare-bones outline of where the story is going (it can even be missing key things like the ending for awhile) and the idea of who most of the characters are going to be before I start in earnest. I'll also list off key locations that need to be in the game. After I have that, I want to make sure that whatever key details of the gameplay I need are something I can get working correctly.
After that, I become more of a pantser, making and writing while I go, but all the while referring back to the bare-bones outline, adding extra details, characters and locations to it as needed.
How long does it take me to actually get started on any game? Like Red said, that depends. It can be a few hours or even just minutes for a quick jam game, and for others it'll be at most a few weeks, tho I often cannot resist dipping my toes in-engine and starting with some mapping, database work or battle prototyping once I have a few ideas down.
I think in the end there is no "right" way to do any of it, just finding what's right for you and works is what's important :D
I'm somewhere in-between. I want to have a bare-bones outline of where the story is going (it can even be missing key things like the ending for awhile) and the idea of who most of the characters are going to be before I start in earnest. I'll also list off key locations that need to be in the game. After I have that, I want to make sure that whatever key details of the gameplay I need are something I can get working correctly.
After that, I become more of a pantser, making and writing while I go, but all the while referring back to the bare-bones outline, adding extra details, characters and locations to it as needed.
How long does it take me to actually get started on any game? Like Red said, that depends. It can be a few hours or even just minutes for a quick jam game, and for others it'll be at most a few weeks, tho I often cannot resist dipping my toes in-engine and starting with some mapping, database work or battle prototyping once I have a few ideas down.
I think in the end there is no "right" way to do any of it, just finding what's right for you and works is what's important :D
I guess I'm someone who tends to spend a fairly minimal amount of time in design docs and spreadsheets before the project actually begins. I figure that ideas are just ideas until you put them in motion. A lot of my pre-development is spent in the editor itself, often prototyping systems and making sure the ideas I have will actually make for a feasible project. Being in the editor helps me visualize and "feel" how everything looks and feels in motion more than a Word document can.
My longest game was, structurally, a fairly straightforward 15-20 hour JRPG. I think my design docs consisted roughly of a 4 page story outline and a few excel sheets to keep track of things along the way. And my story outlines usually consist of the beginning, the ending, and a skeleton of what I want in the middle which I fill in and flesh out as I develop the game. I also keep very little concept art or other external materials. In a phrase, I just like to jump in and make the game. Basically, if something of mine ever took off and someone wanted to publish a "Making of" book of my game, I'd probably be screwed lol.
How much time you should spend pre-planning really depends on the scope of your game. Are you working solo or mostly solo on something simple? You probably don't need a lot of concept art or a huge design doc. But if you're working with a team on something bigger, potentially with kickstarter backers and stakeholders, you might want to have a more organized approached to make sure everyone is on the same page.
My longest game was, structurally, a fairly straightforward 15-20 hour JRPG. I think my design docs consisted roughly of a 4 page story outline and a few excel sheets to keep track of things along the way. And my story outlines usually consist of the beginning, the ending, and a skeleton of what I want in the middle which I fill in and flesh out as I develop the game. I also keep very little concept art or other external materials. In a phrase, I just like to jump in and make the game. Basically, if something of mine ever took off and someone wanted to publish a "Making of" book of my game, I'd probably be screwed lol.
How much time you should spend pre-planning really depends on the scope of your game. Are you working solo or mostly solo on something simple? You probably don't need a lot of concept art or a huge design doc. But if you're working with a team on something bigger, potentially with kickstarter backers and stakeholders, you might want to have a more organized approached to make sure everyone is on the same page.
Darken
3952
I get out of the planning phase when my current project is actually done. But my first commercial project I merely cloned a game jam game I made in a month and just made a bigger version of that. Nowadays I spend a lot of time doing prototypes or "art tests" when I'm not super focused on my main project. The idea being, the most promising prototype is the one that'll go straight to production.
Every 2 weeks I've been meeting up with some kids I've been mentoring and we show prototypes we've been working on. After a month we kickstart new prototypes and do a completely different idea. These prototypes might not be for an entire game but just to build a library of game mechanics that might be worth exploring without any pressure to polish or worry about making something finished. Sometimes we bring our prototypes to gamedev meetups just to see how people react to them before "they're ready" to me this is practical preproduction where you see how hard something is to make but also see what might resonate with people even if its simple white cubes. It's not always about what will make for a good game but just to know what our strengths and weaknesses are.
I think planning out stuff is only really useful if you're instructing other people on what actually needs to be done or to communicate what the game actually is. Problem is you might not know what the game is or should be either through "finding" the game or cutting down on the extraneous stuff that aren't actually that important. I should note I'm not using RPG Maker these days and just code in GameMaker/Godot, so it's a little more freeform these days.
Every 2 weeks I've been meeting up with some kids I've been mentoring and we show prototypes we've been working on. After a month we kickstart new prototypes and do a completely different idea. These prototypes might not be for an entire game but just to build a library of game mechanics that might be worth exploring without any pressure to polish or worry about making something finished. Sometimes we bring our prototypes to gamedev meetups just to see how people react to them before "they're ready" to me this is practical preproduction where you see how hard something is to make but also see what might resonate with people even if its simple white cubes. It's not always about what will make for a good game but just to know what our strengths and weaknesses are.
I think planning out stuff is only really useful if you're instructing other people on what actually needs to be done or to communicate what the game actually is. Problem is you might not know what the game is or should be either through "finding" the game or cutting down on the extraneous stuff that aren't actually that important. I should note I'm not using RPG Maker these days and just code in GameMaker/Godot, so it's a little more freeform these days.
Originally, I was part of the whole 'by the pants' person. I had a vague idea of what I wanted to do and see how much it would flow out by then. That's where I also realized that if I wanted to make a game I would like to create, I might as well have a complete idea of what I wanted as opposed to having random elements popping out and having scope creep all of a sudden. No one likes scope creep, and so should you. And if you're making a story, you might as well have connections of everything rather than retroactively introducing stuff and THEN having to deal with said stuff.
How I do it depends as well on the scope, as some of the users here already said. But for the sake of this conversation, I'll just say that this will be more of a project that would take around 3 months or more. Usually, by that point, I would have so many documents it wouldn't make much sense to have them. I use Figma/Paint.NET for GUI prototyping, Notion/Obsidian for anything related to text/databases/characters/etc., and then wherever to place it. So on and so forth. There's also the matter of consulting people on what they think of the idea at hand, researching fads (though this is by personal taste, you'd only do this if you want to make cash), and initial prototyping.
I would also delve into software engineering and its intricacies, but... it's so much overkill and can also lead to difficulties with other members. Believe me, an art person and a tech person are not of the same mind at times. Someone may have an idea as to how the computer works but don't expect them to have an idea as to how a command-line works and how you can sync SO MANY PROJECT FILES from it.
For the sake of brevity, I'd check out the Agile Workflow—preferably a two-week interval. That's how I roll these days because that's also what I've been taught here at the university. Never take a Computer Science course if you're taking game dev. You'll only learn more stuff than you need, even if it would help you with the other aspects of game devving that are hardcore.
Alright, that's the first question. Second one. Oh man, that one.
It doesn't take that long, really. Once you have an idea, it's just a matter of following through it and just hammering out stuff that may come to mind along the way. I don't want to say a month because my Zoomer brain can't handle the following these days and because it may also introduce a few ideas that won't even happen the moment I do the game. It's also a matter of fact for me that I'm a pressure cooker. I have to set deadlines myself because I only derail stuff. That happened a lot of times so far, even in university, and it's something I have to iron out in the future.
And for the spinoff: I do plan out excessively, even if it's just a two-week long course. Though, I may say that a 'skeleton' idea is far better as it would give you more of a safety net as opposed to having a checklist from time to time. That's because my software engineering teacher always hammers me with this following quote: "Always expect the worse, and don't expect everything to be in the game." That's pretty much all I could say because I have not been making games for about three years, and my recent one that's made for a university course sucks ass.
So overall, just start making a project and toy around with it. Doing something is better than excessively doing stuff. Believe me; I wish I could've converted years of fanfiction writing to something else. But even then, those years are still valuable nonetheless.
How I do it depends as well on the scope, as some of the users here already said. But for the sake of this conversation, I'll just say that this will be more of a project that would take around 3 months or more. Usually, by that point, I would have so many documents it wouldn't make much sense to have them. I use Figma/Paint.NET for GUI prototyping, Notion/Obsidian for anything related to text/databases/characters/etc., and then wherever to place it. So on and so forth. There's also the matter of consulting people on what they think of the idea at hand, researching fads (though this is by personal taste, you'd only do this if you want to make cash), and initial prototyping.
I would also delve into software engineering and its intricacies, but... it's so much overkill and can also lead to difficulties with other members. Believe me, an art person and a tech person are not of the same mind at times. Someone may have an idea as to how the computer works but don't expect them to have an idea as to how a command-line works and how you can sync SO MANY PROJECT FILES from it.
For the sake of brevity, I'd check out the Agile Workflow—preferably a two-week interval. That's how I roll these days because that's also what I've been taught here at the university. Never take a Computer Science course if you're taking game dev. You'll only learn more stuff than you need, even if it would help you with the other aspects of game devving that are hardcore.
Alright, that's the first question. Second one. Oh man, that one.
It doesn't take that long, really. Once you have an idea, it's just a matter of following through it and just hammering out stuff that may come to mind along the way. I don't want to say a month because my Zoomer brain can't handle the following these days and because it may also introduce a few ideas that won't even happen the moment I do the game. It's also a matter of fact for me that I'm a pressure cooker. I have to set deadlines myself because I only derail stuff. That happened a lot of times so far, even in university, and it's something I have to iron out in the future.
And for the spinoff: I do plan out excessively, even if it's just a two-week long course. Though, I may say that a 'skeleton' idea is far better as it would give you more of a safety net as opposed to having a checklist from time to time. That's because my software engineering teacher always hammers me with this following quote: "Always expect the worse, and don't expect everything to be in the game." That's pretty much all I could say because I have not been making games for about three years, and my recent one that's made for a university course sucks ass.
So overall, just start making a project and toy around with it. Doing something is better than excessively doing stuff. Believe me; I wish I could've converted years of fanfiction writing to something else. But even then, those years are still valuable nonetheless.
I plan ALL THE THINGS for a long time.
Classes, systems, spells, weapons, equipment, story - the whole shebang.
I have reems of design txt files exploring some basic RPGs and other games I pretend that I'd have time and skills to make. When the design progresses far enough along the design "graduates" to an Excel document* and a dedicated file folder.
I have about 19+ projects "on deck" in various stages of design and brainstorming. (I can give a breakdown on ALL of them in short order, too. I keep comprehensive notes).
I also have a file on my phone for quick ideas I get and I write them down asap before I forget them.
I am a posterboy for "Ideas Guy".
*the Hero's Realm remaster excel document is up to 44 tabs. I have everything in a OneDrive folder, broken up into dozens of subfolders by category. The master TXT file is 420kb and is 10th of thousands of lines.
Edit:
https://rpgmaker.net/media/content/users/105/locker/Screenshot_20230808_102624_Microsoft_365_Office.jpg
You can see a snapshot I took of the text file. You can see the table of contents (yes the larger txt files get a TOC) and the quick notes section.
Classes, systems, spells, weapons, equipment, story - the whole shebang.
I have reems of design txt files exploring some basic RPGs and other games I pretend that I'd have time and skills to make. When the design progresses far enough along the design "graduates" to an Excel document* and a dedicated file folder.
I have about 19+ projects "on deck" in various stages of design and brainstorming. (I can give a breakdown on ALL of them in short order, too. I keep comprehensive notes).
I also have a file on my phone for quick ideas I get and I write them down asap before I forget them.
I am a posterboy for "Ideas Guy".
*the Hero's Realm remaster excel document is up to 44 tabs. I have everything in a OneDrive folder, broken up into dozens of subfolders by category. The master TXT file is 420kb and is 10th of thousands of lines.
Edit:
https://rpgmaker.net/media/content/users/105/locker/Screenshot_20230808_102624_Microsoft_365_Office.jpg
You can see a snapshot I took of the text file. You can see the table of contents (yes the larger txt files get a TOC) and the quick notes section.
LordBlueRouge
2143
author=Darken
I get out of the planning phase when my current project is actually done. But my first commercial project I merely cloned a game jam game I made in a month and just made a bigger version of that. Nowadays I spend a lot of time doing prototypes or "art tests" when I'm not super focused on my main project. The idea being, the most promising prototype is the one that'll go straight to production.
Every 2 weeks I've been meeting up with some kids I've been mentoring and we show prototypes we've been working on. After a month we kickstart new prototypes and do a completely different idea. These prototypes might not be for an entire game but just to build a library of game mechanics that might be worth exploring without any pressure to polish or worry about making something finished. Sometimes we bring our prototypes to gamedev meetups just to see how people react to them before "they're ready" to me this is practical preproduction where you see how hard something is to make but also see what might resonate with people even if its simple white cubes. It's not always about what will make for a good game but just to know what our strengths and weaknesses are.
I think planning out stuff is only really useful if you're instructing other people on what actually needs to be done or to communicate what the game actually is. Problem is you might not know what the game is or should be either through "finding" the game or cutting down on the extraneous stuff that aren't actually that important. I should note I'm not using RPG Maker these days and just code in GameMaker/Godot, so it's a little more freeform these days.
Just chiming in here before I forget.
Ugh, this is brilliant ♥. I wish I thought of this. Why isn't Darken part of staff yet? He may not be working with rpgmaker anymore, but he's got like this invaluable wisdom and work experience, he's in the field doing this stuff everyday and it's like really really cool. Any good idea I had originally came from darken. He's constantly sharing his experience and it's like super invaluable to anyone interested in this even as a hobbie or whatever.
Unrelated, but ya, this was really cool to read. I've only thought about doing this with like really short cartoons, it never occurred to me you could also apply these same techniques to game design as well and just workout shorter ideas by creating smaller games.
Really cool stuff here.
My general strategy is to work on what feels right, and revert to planning when I hit a point that I feel like I don't know what needs to happen, or if I feel like there are too many things at once.
I do a ton of stuff in editor that is just like, testing and toying with mechanics, seeing what sticks and what doesn't, for stuff I don't even know I wanna use yet, more just exploratory. Once I cobble together a bunch of neat stuff, I step back and plan out how those things will present in-game. Often that planning is a pretty basic bulleted list, and I flesh out the details as I work on them.
Just as well, then I spend a lot of time in-editor designing levels and enemies and laying out stuff, but at a certain point there will come a time where I think, "where the hell am I going with this?" or "why is the player here?" and at that point is when I will usually step back to try and organize my thoughts and plan some stuff out.
I have dozens of pages of just like, chaotic story written out, stuff that often contradicts itself as I revise things. I am horribly unorganized.
I didn't say this approach was the most successful.
I do a ton of stuff in editor that is just like, testing and toying with mechanics, seeing what sticks and what doesn't, for stuff I don't even know I wanna use yet, more just exploratory. Once I cobble together a bunch of neat stuff, I step back and plan out how those things will present in-game. Often that planning is a pretty basic bulleted list, and I flesh out the details as I work on them.
Just as well, then I spend a lot of time in-editor designing levels and enemies and laying out stuff, but at a certain point there will come a time where I think, "where the hell am I going with this?" or "why is the player here?" and at that point is when I will usually step back to try and organize my thoughts and plan some stuff out.
I have dozens of pages of just like, chaotic story written out, stuff that often contradicts itself as I revise things. I am horribly unorganized.
I didn't say this approach was the most successful.
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