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BOSS THREAD ABOUT BOSSES
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Strak
1560
Strak
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CloseI'm pretty sure this has been done before, but I kind of wanted to create a revival of it. I also think the name has been used, but I couldn't find a topic with this name so I might be crazy. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Anyway, on to the point. I'm working on designing some bosses. I've got some ideas, but they're a bit flawed and could use some improvement. I'm looking for ideas and feedback on some good gimmicks for boss fights that can change up the basic gameplay but still tie in nicely with the overall theme.
So with that, here's a couple of ideas I'm thinking of implementing. Make use of them yourself if you wish, or offer feedback or what have you.
Sleeping Beauty
Not literally. Kind of. The idea with this boss is that it's sleeping throughout the fight. It will constantly spawn minions that fight for it, and it cannot be damaged while sleeping. Once you've defeated a few minions, it'll wake up and can be damaged. It still won't attack, but if it takes too much damage it will retaliate with a super move. At around half health it'll go back to sleep and the pattern repeats until it is defeated.
Pros: A boss that doesn't attack gives a nice change of pace, and having some brief periods of invincibility can change your optimal turn order, but the presence of minions still offers a moderate threat.
Cons: You've already been fighting these minions throughout the dungeon, so it may feel tedious to fight them again as a boss fight. Also, if they constantly respawn, it can feel pointless to defeat them while the boss is awake. A possible fix for this is to prevent respawns while the boss is awake, or add a delay before the respawn.
Any feedback on this one?
Mr. Invincible
A boss that continually regenerates 100% of it's HP. No attack causes lasting damage. Power gamers can find ways of one shotting the boss, but the real method of winning is to use a weapon that prevents HP regen. This can be done by having attacks with those weapons not only deal damage, but also reduce the max HP of that boss. This means that attacks with other weapons will still deal damage, but that damage can be regenerated, whereas attacks with the special weapons cannot be regenerated.
Pros: Can be used for some really cool story points. An invincible boss that shows up frequently can eventually be defeated through this method.
Cons: If there isn't a likely chance of using a weapon without this attribute, it may just feel like a normal boss. Need a special UI to actually display the bosses HP otherwise you may not notice the regeneration effect. If the special weapon is locked to a specific weapon, it may frustrate players who prefer a different weapon.
Feedback?
I may respond to this thread later with more ideas, but I wanted to gauge how people would respond to these ideas and see if anyone else has some rad boss ideas they'd like to see implemented.
Anyway, on to the point. I'm working on designing some bosses. I've got some ideas, but they're a bit flawed and could use some improvement. I'm looking for ideas and feedback on some good gimmicks for boss fights that can change up the basic gameplay but still tie in nicely with the overall theme.
So with that, here's a couple of ideas I'm thinking of implementing. Make use of them yourself if you wish, or offer feedback or what have you.
Sleeping Beauty
Not literally. Kind of. The idea with this boss is that it's sleeping throughout the fight. It will constantly spawn minions that fight for it, and it cannot be damaged while sleeping. Once you've defeated a few minions, it'll wake up and can be damaged. It still won't attack, but if it takes too much damage it will retaliate with a super move. At around half health it'll go back to sleep and the pattern repeats until it is defeated.
Pros: A boss that doesn't attack gives a nice change of pace, and having some brief periods of invincibility can change your optimal turn order, but the presence of minions still offers a moderate threat.
Cons: You've already been fighting these minions throughout the dungeon, so it may feel tedious to fight them again as a boss fight. Also, if they constantly respawn, it can feel pointless to defeat them while the boss is awake. A possible fix for this is to prevent respawns while the boss is awake, or add a delay before the respawn.
Any feedback on this one?
Mr. Invincible
A boss that continually regenerates 100% of it's HP. No attack causes lasting damage. Power gamers can find ways of one shotting the boss, but the real method of winning is to use a weapon that prevents HP regen. This can be done by having attacks with those weapons not only deal damage, but also reduce the max HP of that boss. This means that attacks with other weapons will still deal damage, but that damage can be regenerated, whereas attacks with the special weapons cannot be regenerated.
Pros: Can be used for some really cool story points. An invincible boss that shows up frequently can eventually be defeated through this method.
Cons: If there isn't a likely chance of using a weapon without this attribute, it may just feel like a normal boss. Need a special UI to actually display the bosses HP otherwise you may not notice the regeneration effect. If the special weapon is locked to a specific weapon, it may frustrate players who prefer a different weapon.
Feedback?
I may respond to this thread later with more ideas, but I wanted to gauge how people would respond to these ideas and see if anyone else has some rad boss ideas they'd like to see implemented.
dethmetal
990
For the Mr. Invicible boss, I think it's a good idea, but you should allow for other methods of defeating the boss too. For example, paralyzing or putting the boss to sleep.
If you offer a large number of options, it will help the player feel like the independently figured out a way to do it. The player might feel railroaded if it boils down to "use this specific weapon to win". The solution should instead be "stop the boss from healing to win", which can be accomplished with various methods.
If you offer a large number of options, it will help the player feel like the independently figured out a way to do it. The player might feel railroaded if it boils down to "use this specific weapon to win". The solution should instead be "stop the boss from healing to win", which can be accomplished with various methods.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
Sleeping Beauty: I don't like the idea of having only a small window of attack but getting punished for making full use of that window, so I'd scrap the super move idea.
Regarding the minions: While I don't inherently oppose the idea of having minions in the boss fight, they need to contribute something to the fight itself rather than just be more enemies to beat. Sleeping Beauty would be far more interesting a fight if the boss interacted with the minions to some degree. For example, once the boss wakes up, it would devour all the living minions and gain heals/buffs depending on the minion devoured. Then the player would have the choose which minions to prioritize defeating, and thus which buffs to deny, before the boss wakes up. You could then spend the fights leading up to the boss training the player on which minions gave which buffs so there aren't too many new mechanics dumped on the player at once.
Mr. Invincible: I'm assuming you're pitching boss ideas for Thrall? If so, having a super specific strategy like finding a weapon that reduces max HP poses a major risk for a game reliant on random loot drops. Plus, if a player has no idea that this will be a boss mechanic, they run the very high risk of hitting a wall on their progress and forcing them to fight random mobs until RNG gives them weapons that they can use, going against the spirit of the rougelike genre.
I think the HP regen mechanic is a good idea, but the way to counter that should be reliant on the player's actions not their randomly-awarded gear. Maybe scatter a bunch of healing points that the player must destroy on their way to the boss, each one reducing the boss' max HP by a set %. Shin Megami Tensei V did something like this with the Ishtar fight, but instead of HP, each point reduced the # of actions she could take per turn.
Regarding the minions: While I don't inherently oppose the idea of having minions in the boss fight, they need to contribute something to the fight itself rather than just be more enemies to beat. Sleeping Beauty would be far more interesting a fight if the boss interacted with the minions to some degree. For example, once the boss wakes up, it would devour all the living minions and gain heals/buffs depending on the minion devoured. Then the player would have the choose which minions to prioritize defeating, and thus which buffs to deny, before the boss wakes up. You could then spend the fights leading up to the boss training the player on which minions gave which buffs so there aren't too many new mechanics dumped on the player at once.
Mr. Invincible: I'm assuming you're pitching boss ideas for Thrall? If so, having a super specific strategy like finding a weapon that reduces max HP poses a major risk for a game reliant on random loot drops. Plus, if a player has no idea that this will be a boss mechanic, they run the very high risk of hitting a wall on their progress and forcing them to fight random mobs until RNG gives them weapons that they can use, going against the spirit of the rougelike genre.
I think the HP regen mechanic is a good idea, but the way to counter that should be reliant on the player's actions not their randomly-awarded gear. Maybe scatter a bunch of healing points that the player must destroy on their way to the boss, each one reducing the boss' max HP by a set %. Shin Megami Tensei V did something like this with the Ishtar fight, but instead of HP, each point reduced the # of actions she could take per turn.
Strak
1560
Good feedback, both of you. I like the insight around having interactivity between the boss and its minions, definitely makes the fight more dynamic and gives more purpose to actually having them in the first place. Another idea I thought of is that the boss itself can't attack or be damaged, but it can summon minions to attack, but doing so costs the boss a portion of its health. As it gets lower and lower, it'll spawn more minions at a time, creating more chaos but also rapidly depleting its health until it eventually eats itself alive. Maybe at lower health it'll start attacking as well, giving it more purpose than essentially a minion stockpile.
Gonna keep bouncing ideas around, but I appreciate the feedback. It's causing me to think more outside the box.
Gonna keep bouncing ideas around, but I appreciate the feedback. It's causing me to think more outside the box.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
Mr. Invincible just pisses me off on principle. The whole bit is that it ruins the player's experience.
I know Sleeping Beauty can work as I did such a thing in my own game, though it requires a lot of plot to justify. In said game, the boss' (Fear's) minions were shadows of the protagonists (same abilities) which the player had to dispose of before Fear became vulnerable. I did this by giving Fear the reflect status until a scripted sequence that plays after all the minions have been felled. What this does is punish the player for mindlessly relying on group damage spells and gets them more up close and personal with their shadows. Plotwise, this reflects the entire dungeon beforehand and the nature of Fear.
The problem here is that you're pretty much forcing the player into at least one game over until they understand what's going on because they'll line up all their best attacks against themselves*. If your game isn't designed to be hardcore (no saves), it'll be a minor nuisance. I wouldn't get cute like this if the consequences for failure are high.
*It pains me to remember watching Hawk stream this, getting to this point, and when I responded in chat, his response was essentially "okay, how was I supposed to know that?" He seemed pretty peeved.
I know Sleeping Beauty can work as I did such a thing in my own game, though it requires a lot of plot to justify. In said game, the boss' (Fear's) minions were shadows of the protagonists (same abilities) which the player had to dispose of before Fear became vulnerable. I did this by giving Fear the reflect status until a scripted sequence that plays after all the minions have been felled. What this does is punish the player for mindlessly relying on group damage spells and gets them more up close and personal with their shadows. Plotwise, this reflects the entire dungeon beforehand and the nature of Fear.
The problem here is that you're pretty much forcing the player into at least one game over until they understand what's going on because they'll line up all their best attacks against themselves*. If your game isn't designed to be hardcore (no saves), it'll be a minor nuisance. I wouldn't get cute like this if the consequences for failure are high.
*It pains me to remember watching Hawk stream this, getting to this point, and when I responded in chat, his response was essentially "okay, how was I supposed to know that?" He seemed pretty peeved.
LebuDrain
50
I have fought these two boss concepts before. Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne has Mr. Invincible. But the smart way to use the boss is to have it as a lesson to use buffs and debuffs, which Shin Megami Tensei uses a lot of. Additionally, they decided to make it an optional boss, which is really nice for the sake of whatever crazy challenge run someone comes up with.
I agree that the super attack sounds very annoying for Sleeping Beauty. Sounds very MMORPG. I guess a strong comparison could actually be final bosses like Lavos Core, where you can not even target the vitals until you fulfill a condition. You say that the minions should be normal, but I am not sure why this would be considered an important part in designing a boss.
I agree that the super attack sounds very annoying for Sleeping Beauty. Sounds very MMORPG. I guess a strong comparison could actually be final bosses like Lavos Core, where you can not even target the vitals until you fulfill a condition. You say that the minions should be normal, but I am not sure why this would be considered an important part in designing a boss.
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